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Labour's last chance gone?


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#41 nadera78

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 09:55 AM

You might not agree with it but the Conservatives put out (and promoted) a mini manifesto specifically on the NHS reforms - building entirely on the platform laid by Labour which continued the work of the Thatcher/Major government - before the last election.


When Andrew Lansley announced his plans for the destruction of the NHS after the election the point was raised that they hadn't been included in the Tory manifesto. Cameron insisted that he'd never seen them before and that Lansley had only unveiled them to him after the election.
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#42 JohnM

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 10:07 AM

Destruction of the NHS? There is absolutely no basis for such an outlandish and scaremongering claim. If the Coalition announced that the Pope was a Catholic, there are those who would have disagree.

#43 Trojan

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 10:25 AM

Destruction of the NHS? There is absolutely no basis for such an outlandish and scaremongering claim. If the Coalition announced that the Pope was a Catholic, there are those who would have disagree.

The general consensus is that these "reforms" set up the framework for privatisation. The Tories can't be trusted with the NHS, they opposed it from the start and during the Thatcher years allowed it to whither, why should Cameron be any different? Before the last election they pledged that there would be no more top down "reforms" of the NHS. One of the very first measures they introduced was a top down "reform" of the NHS. Cameron was a known liar - the Tories' entire election strategy in 1992 devised by him was admitted by Ken Clark afterwards to be based on a lie. IMO with a very unpopular Labour government and a PM who was even more unpopular than his party, Cameron should have walked the last election. He didn't because basically people don't trust him. If the Tories get rid of him maybe they'll have a chance in 2015.

Edited by Trojan, 01 April 2013 - 10:26 AM.

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#44 JohnM

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 10:51 AM

Don't agree with any of that, as you might expect. Cameron's main failures seem to me to be his failure to kick out the UKIP wanabees and to avoid pot holes like the "pasty tax". He has managed to set the whole of Fleet Street against him (the BBC already being against him) . The left press because that are the only effective opposition, the Centre press because they will never forgive the Lib Dems for actually having to face the realities of being at least partially in government and the right because of his promotion of gay marriage and a commitment to foreign aid.

I can see no outcome at the next election other than an outright Labour victory, even if they resuscitated Balls and Brown.

#45 nadera78

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 11:30 AM

Destruction of the NHS? There is absolutely no basis for such an outlandish and scaremongering claim. If the Coalition announced that the Pope was a Catholic, there are those who would have disagree.


Within the last six months two doctors and a physiotherapist, all working within the NHS and all vastly experienced, have used the word 'destruction' to describe to me what's going on. I'll take their experience of it over yours.
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#46 JohnM

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 11:38 AM

There are 1.4 million people in the NHS. It is inevitable that some of them will object to change. It is inevitable that some of them will oppose change and it is inevitable in the absence of any credible and effective opposition in Parliament that someone else will try to play that role. However, the NHS is far too important to be left in the hands of a few naysayers. Far better that the Govt does as it is doing in continuing the reforms and improvements made by the last Labour govt.

#47 gingerjon

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 02:24 PM

When Andrew Lansley announced his plans for the destruction of the NHS after the election the point was raised that they hadn't been included in the Tory manifesto. Cameron insisted that he'd never seen them before and that Lansley had only unveiled them to him after the election.

I find that quite odd then given that the Tories published it and put their name on it.
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#48 gingerjon

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 02:25 PM

Anyone had any experience of the 111 service yet?
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#49 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 04:44 PM

Don't agree with any of that, as you might expect. Cameron's main failures seem to me to be his failure to kick out the UKIP wanabees and to avoid pot holes like the "pasty tax". He has managed to set the whole of Fleet Street against him (the BBC already being against him) . The left press because that are the only effective opposition, the Centre press because they will never forgive the Lib Dems for actually having to face the realities of being at least partially in government and the right because of his promotion of gay marriage and a commitment to foreign aid.

I can see no outcome at the next election other than an outright Labour victory, even if they resuscitated Balls and Brown.


We don't agree on politics always, but I alwayys respect your analysis. This is an example of that.

Also I'd like to know where this 'general concensus' is. The Health service can't be and shouldn't bethe kind of organisation that wass instituted in 1948. We have an ageing population, advances in care, medicine and techniques, and so on have changed its identity and the demnds on it out of all recognition. government of any political persuasion has to address tis. the labour party when it was in government addresed this as contentiously as any Tory government with privte/ public finance initiatives, targets an so on.

The labour party if the ever were whenever they were in power, apart from the immediate post war years-and even then tat can be questioned, were never a party of the left, and that has become less so, resulting in Blair's throing away te opportunity to bring about major social change in this country in 1997. It seems that although what yo say will probably come to pass, it's hard not to the so ##### what?
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#50 Bedford Roughyed

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 07:07 PM

Don't agree with any of that, as you might expect. Cameron's main failures seem to me to be his failure to kick out the UKIP wanabees and to avoid pot holes like the "pasty tax". He has managed to set the whole of Fleet Street against him (the BBC already being against him) . The left press because that are the only effective opposition, the Centre press because they will never forgive the Lib Dems for actually having to face the realities of being at least partially in government and the right because of his promotion of gay marriage and a commitment to foreign aid.

I can see no outcome at the next election other than an outright Labour victory, even if they resuscitated Balls and Brown.


Have to agree. Cameron tried to get the party to move, and a good portion have stayed where they were with no self awareness that it is they that will lose them the next election. Even the things he has thrown them (which have given Labour free hits, 50% tax, etc) they have seemingly taken and still shafted him on other issues (europe, etc).
With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

#51 Bedford Roughyed

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 07:10 PM

As for labour, they are very lucky to be opposing a government making so many mistakes, U-turns and infighting. It means they can attack the coalition for their cuts to welfare whilst supporting them at the same time (voting for back dating laws to cover workfare, etc).
With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

#52 Wolford6

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 07:18 PM

The SDP took votes from Labour and let in the Tories.

Now, UKIP will take votes from the Tories and let in Labour.

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#53 Methven Hornet

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 08:55 PM

The SDP took votes from Labour and let in the Tories.

Now, UKIP will take votes from the Tories and let in Labour.


UKIP are not the electoral threat that the SDP were; just think of the experience the SDP had on terms of governmental and parliamentary service an then compare... no, maybe don't.

On the other side of the equation, the Tories, while divided and not having much success in government, are not in the state of disarray that Labour were in during the rise of SDP. Many, if not most, of the 'defectors' that say they will vote UKIP in the opinion polls will return at the general election, if only to try and prevent a Labour government.
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#54 Steve May

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 03:26 AM

When Andrew Lansley announced his plans for the destruction of the NHS after the election the point was raised that they hadn't been included in the Tory manifesto. Cameron insisted that he'd never seen them before and that Lansley had only unveiled them to him after the election.


I can well believe that Cameron hadn't read the manifesto, he's not big on details, but the NHS plans were there in the Tory manifesto.


From the Tory Manifesto:

So we will give every patient the power to choose any healthcare provider that meets NHS standards, within NHS prices. This includes independent, voluntary and community sector providers.

We will strengthen the power of GPs as patients’ expert guides through the health system by: giving them the power to hold patients’ budgets and commission care on their behalf; linking their pay to the quality of their results; and putting them in charge of commissioning local health services.


Alright, there's a weasel words about "independent" providers where it would have been more truthful to put "private companies owned by Tory donors", and of course nobody seriously expected the voluntary providers bit to last into the implementation, but there it is in black and white.

Privatisation of the NHS. People voted for it, and people have got it. They really should have read the small print.



It's also there, more or less, in the coalition agreement as well. Pretty much cut and pasted from the Tory manifesto (I don't think the Lib Dems actually read the coalition agreement before they signed it)


From the Coalition Agreement:

We will strengthen the power of GPs as patients’ expert guides through the health system by enabling them to commission care on their behalf


We will give every patient the power to choose any healthcare provider that meets NHS standards, within NHS prices. This includes independent, voluntary and community sector providers


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#55 Northern Sol

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 08:19 AM

UKIP are not the electoral threat that the SDP were; just think of the experience the SDP had on terms of governmental and parliamentary service an then compare... no, maybe don't.

On the other side of the equation, the Tories, while divided and not having much success in government, are not in the state of disarray that Labour were in during the rise of SDP. Many, if not most, of the 'defectors' that say they will vote UKIP in the opinion polls will return at the general election, if only to try and prevent a Labour government.


It's not whether UKIP would make a good government but whether many people will vote for them. They could easily scupper the Tories. One might say that it is poetic justice for being against the alternative vote.

#56 JohnM

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 09:11 AM

Doctrinal scare-mongering of the worst sort from what passes as "the Opposition"

Privatisation is generally regarded as "the process of transferring ownership of a business enterprise, agency, public service or public property from the public sector to the private sector". Clearly this is not happening so any suggestion that the NHS has been privatised is incorrect.

We will strengthen the power of GPs as patients’ expert guides through the health system by enabling them to commission care on their behalf. We will give every patient the power to choose any healthcare provider that meets NHS standards, within NHS prices. This includes independent, voluntary and community sector providers.

This is exactly the system I experienced between 1988 and 1999 and lived under in socialist France for 6 years between 1999 and 2005.

In its 2000 assessment of world health care systems, the WHO found that France provided the "close to best overall health care" in the world.

Edited by JohnM, 02 April 2013 - 09:12 AM.


#57 Northern Sol

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Posted 02 April 2013 - 09:52 AM

Doctrinal scare-mongering of the worst sort from what passes as "the Opposition"

Privatisation is generally regarded as "the process of transferring ownership of a business enterprise, agency, public service or public property from the public sector to the private sector". Clearly this is not happening so any suggestion that the NHS has been privatised is incorrect.

We will strengthen the power of GPs as patients’ expert guides through the health system by enabling them to commission care on their behalf. We will give every patient the power to choose any healthcare provider that meets NHS standards, within NHS prices. This includes independent, voluntary and community sector providers.

This is exactly the system I experienced between 1988 and 1999 and lived under in socialist France for 6 years between 1999 and 2005.

In its 2000 assessment of world health care systems, the WHO found that France provided the "close to best overall health care" in the world.


Privaisatised is also used in the sense "to make something accountable to the market". And this would be accurate.

It might be scaremongering but it is not entirely dishonest.

Edited by Northern Sol, 02 April 2013 - 09:52 AM.


#58 John Drake

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Posted 03 April 2013 - 09:19 AM

David Milliband has confirmed he is leaving Westminster for a job in America. For mine, he was the only credible candidate to lead Labour in a general election.


Why? Because of his politics or because he is marginally less geeky looking than his brother?

I think MiliD was probably right to assess that after losing the leadership to MiliE, it would be impossible for him to take any kind of front bench role for Labour without people constantly looking for any sign of disagreement between him and the party leader and talking it up its potential for a leadership challenge, even though no one should seriously expect them to agree about everything just because they are brothers, or even members of the same political party. Such is the debasement of our politics which, yes, it could be argued, both Milibands and their New Labour ilk have contributed to over the years. More's the pity.

MiliD could have caused a lot of trouble for MiliE. He's chosen not to. That probably disappoints a lot of political columnists who will have to think up something new to write about in future, but it possibly increases Labour's chances of doing well in 2015 rather than the opposite. Divided parties never prosper. And if they don't do well in 2015, the 'King over the Water' can return as the untainted saviour of his party. It wouldn't surprise me if that thought has gone through his head!

All that said, it would be nice to think the next election will be decided on policy rather than personality, but when you see polls suggesting that the Tories' ratings would be transformed by dumping David Cameron for Boris Johnson, it does seem a somewhat naive hope. No wonder so many people don't bother any more, which is the really depressing part.

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#59 fieldofclothofgold

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Posted 04 April 2013 - 02:21 PM

A week is a long time in politics ,that is very true,but after the event of this week I.E the start of the bedroom tax and IDS quoted as saying he could live on 53 quid a week,if Labour are not at least 15points lead in the polls then a working majority will be difficult in 2015.Also if the Tory's succeed in implimenting any for of privatisation in the NHS would Labour repeal it?because they have stated that they cant/wont repeal everything the Tory's have done.
but you and I weve been through that and this is not our fate.
So let us so let us not talk falsely now.
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