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01/04/13 - Hull Kingston Rovers v Wigan Warriors - KO 3pm


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189 replies to this topic

Poll: Who will win? (10 member(s) have cast votes)

Who will win?

  1. Hull Kingston Rovers (0 votes [0.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 0.00%

  2. Wigan Warriors (9 votes [90.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 90.00%

  3. Draw (1 votes [10.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 10.00%

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#101 Padge

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 07:43 PM

So are you saying HKR shouldn't be in SL.

It seems like that's what he's saying.

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#102 zorquif

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 07:46 PM

When Taylor's contract is up he's obviously free to negotiate with anyone. If Rovers had cap space and were to offer him an increased salary but he still wanted to leave, one option would be a "sign and trade" with another team happy to match this new salary, eg Rovers offer him £80K a year, Wigan offer him the same and then agree to trade with Rovers for player or players under contract earning the same salary, which may, for the sake of argument, be O'Loughlin and Goulding. Possibly not but then I just plucked those names from thin air. But you get the drift.

The point is that players are either moving in free agency or being traded under contract. So no team can be asset stripped or bail on their fans to save a few quid.

If any club has financial difficulty they shouldn't be in the league in the first place. With this kind of equilibrium system in place such occasions would be considerable less likely. Allowing transfer fees is the wrong way to go about the issue of clubs in financial strife. It simply perpetuates failure.


Problem is that Hull KR don't have that kind of money. The salary that they could have offered Taylor would be the same that a bench warmer at Wigan would get. So that is what they would get in return. Your solution does not solve the problem. It just saves an extra round of negotiation. And as has been said, it would still be up to the players to agree to the move.

#103 DeadShotKeen

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 07:46 PM

So are you saying HKR shouldn't be in SL.


No. If you'd read even a portion of my contribution to this thread you would see that I'm saying that the conditions of the league should be such that teams like HKR get a fairer crack of the whip and don't slide into financial strife in the first place.

If given that fairer crack of the whip, HKR (or anyone) meet financial difficulty then yes, they should be kicked out of SL.

Clearly some teams (Leeds, Wigan, St Helens, Bradford) are "system proof".

Others should succeed with investment (London, Salford, Catalan).

The rest, quite clearly, need help of some kind to remain competitive long-term. I include even Warrington in that.

#104 terrywebbisgod

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 07:52 PM

No. If you'd read even a portion of my contribution to this thread you would see that I'm saying that the conditions of the league should be such that teams like HKR get a fairer crack of the whip and don't slide into financial strife in the first place.

If given that fairer crack of the whip, HKR (or anyone) meet financial difficulty then yes, they should be kicked out of SL.

Clearly some teams (Leeds, Wigan, St Helens, Bradford) are "system proof".

Others should succeed with investment (London, Salford, Catalan).

The rest, quite clearly, need help of some kind to remain competitive long-term. I include even Warrington in that.

I've read your contributions and it smacks of "my team got walloped and it's not fair"
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#105 Padge

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 07:54 PM

No. If you'd read even a portion of my contribution to this thread you would see that I'm saying that the conditions of the league should be such that teams like HKR get a fairer crack of the whip and don't slide into financial strife in the first place.

If given that fairer crack of the whip, HKR (or anyone) meet financial difficulty then yes, they should be kicked out of SL.

Clearly some teams (Leeds, Wigan, St Helens, Bradford) are "system proof".

Others should succeed with investment (London, Salford, Catalan).

The rest, quite clearly, need help of some kind to remain competitive long-term. I include even Warrington in that.


Hull KR's problem is a very simple one, they do not generate enough cash.

That isn't Wigan's, Leeds, Saints or Uncle Tom Cobbley's problem, that is Hull KR's problem.

Maybe the city of Kingston Upon Hull can't support two SL clubs, maybe it can. At the moment all the indications are it can't.

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#106 Brigg Rover

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 07:58 PM

Well the wife and kids wanted to go to the game today so that cost me £47 for that farce. You wouldn't have found many people who thought that Rod Studd's idea of stopping the game at 50 points was that daft this afternoon.

#107 goldcoaster

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 07:59 PM

Losing by 80 is an embarrassment, especially at home. The realities of Hull KR's lack of player development over the past 6 years are coming back to bite them. The fact that Widnes have achieved more in terms of player development in less than 2 years in SL then Hull KR have in 6 is an indicator as to how poorly run they are.

Hull KR still have 9 overseas players in their first team (one of the highest in the league) and none would even be close to first grade standard in the NRL. this has been the same story ever since the club was promoted. They have contributed next to nothing in terms of production of British talent.

It's great they have a good band of 7-8k of loyal fans, however they have financial difficulties, are playing poorly and play in the worst stadium in SL. The reality is, Hull is simply not big enough for 2 teams. If SL is looking to reduce in size, Hull KR should be first on the chopping block. They are simply not worth having in SL.
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#108 Brigg Rover

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 08:02 PM

Losing by 80 is an embarrassment, especially at home. The realities of Hull KR's lack of player development over the past 6 years are coming back to bite them. The fact that Widnes have achieved more in terms of player development in less than 2 years in SL then Hull KR have in 6 is an indicator as to how poorly run they are.

Hull KR still have 9 overseas players in their first team (one of the highest in the league) and none would even be close to first grade standard in the NRL. this has been the same story ever since the club was promoted. They have contributed next to nothing in terms of production of British talent.

It's great they have a good band of 7-8k of loyal fans, however they have financial difficulties, are playing poorly and play in the worst stadium in SL. The reality is, Hull is simply not big enough for 2 teams. If SL is looking to reduce in size, Hull KR should be first on the chopping block. They are simply not worth having in SL.


Get back to supporting your team that has produced no juniors that have played for Australia and have massive financial difficulties. They have contributed nothing to the NRL and should be thrown out.

Now why don't you take your drivel back where it came from.

#109 Brigg Rover

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 08:09 PM

Losing by 80 is an embarrassment, especially at home. The realities of Hull KR's lack of player development over the past 6 years are coming back to bite them. The fact that Widnes have achieved more in terms of player development in less than 2 years in SL then Hull KR have in 6 is an indicator as to how poorly run they are.

Hull KR still have 9 overseas players in their first team (one of the highest in the league) and none would even be close to first grade standard in the NRL. this has been the same story ever since the club was promoted. They have contributed next to nothing in terms of production of British talent.

It's great they have a good band of 7-8k of loyal fans, however they have financial difficulties, are playing poorly and play in the worst stadium in SL. The reality is, Hull is simply not big enough for 2 teams. If SL is looking to reduce in size, Hull KR should be first on the chopping block. They are simply not worth having in SL.


6 Hull lads in the side that played FC on friday, a total of 11 English lads in the team. So no juniors or English kids supposedly.

#110 terrywebbisgod

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 08:11 PM

6 Hull lads in the side that played FC on friday, a total of 11 English lads in the team. So no juniors or English kids supposedly.

Only due to the fact that players are injured or were rested.Would it be the same with a fully fit squad.
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#111 The Parksider

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 08:12 PM

1. This is just your usual assault on the City of Hull though Parky - Lay off the Hull-bashing.

2. The same issue exists (more so) with Wakey and Cas and even with Wire and Widnes.

3. It is a demographic issue but it is not JUST a demographic issue. 20K fans packed the KC on Friday so clearly there is considerable demand for RL in Hull. 2 SL sides? It's a debate.

4. But the debate here is more subtle - it's better teams getting better off worse teams and where that leaves any attempts to create a competitive league.


1. A pathetic response Keeny, I would not have expected it of you. This "oh you just don't like us" attitude is pure playground stuff. Other posters spoke about HKR developing their juniors, and it is the case that the best kids in Hull won't want to sign for a skint Rovers and that is what Rovers are at the moment - Skint.

It is the case their best young players (and old players) started to look elsewhere once the cupboard was bare. As simple as that. Tony Larvin heralded instantly as HKR's saviour, would have been just that.

2. I know full well the same applies at Castleford. They too are skint and are having their best players taken off them. That obvious situation is one I have pointed out several times, it's just that the Cas fans don't revert to playground replies. Widnes survive in the face of Wire because they have O'Connor still doing what Hudgell has now stopped doing.

3. I'm not debating the non-subtle issue of wether Hull can support two SL sides, clearly they can and have done for some years, but they only can do this with enough money and one club is half a million pounds a year short and won't get the top players or quality juniors as long as that goes on.

4. Your debate is merely "How do we enable clubs who are over £500,000 a season short on wages to compete with clubs who can pay full cap"

There's nothing subtle about that. You just don't.

Unless you support a £1.1M cap.

I'd guess both Featherstone and Toulouse will be seeking to spend £1.65M in 2015.

Edited by The Parksider, 01 April 2013 - 08:15 PM.


#112 Grebo Guru

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 08:15 PM

DSK, I can understand your frustration, and you must be bitterly disappointed but Hudgell went for the spend big on players, win games, fill stands model. Its an ancient and outmoded sports business model. I can understand why he went for that when you were first promoted, you could have been relegated at the end of your first season. Since licensing has been brought in though there has been ample opportunity for HKR to change the model, they didn't. They kept on throwing money at overseas players hoping to buy that success that would fill the stands and pay the bills.

In the modern game it is more important to get your youth policy right than have a big wallet.


Only to find that when you develop an England player, he refuses to enter contract negotiations because he wants to move to a club which wins things.

#113 terrywebbisgod

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 08:15 PM

Only to find that when you develop an England player, he refuses to enter contract negotiations because he wants to move to a club which wins things.

Shocking isn't it,wanting to win trophies indeed.
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#114 Brigg Rover

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 08:19 PM

Only due to the fact that players are injured or were rested.Would it be the same with a fully fit squad.

When does anyone have a fully fit squad?

#115 terrywebbisgod

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 08:21 PM

When does anyone have a fully fit squad?

So you would still have a predominantly English team then with all your overseas players fit then? :ph34r:
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#116 Grebo Guru

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 08:28 PM

Hull KR bring more than most clubs to SL in terms of supporters and player development and you all know it. However it's April 1st, so have fun while you can. There's another game next week.

#117 Saintslass

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 08:31 PM

I made the comment that it seems significant that the teams that have depth in the squads have all managed big wins today. It is only a worry if this score marks a decline for the rest of the season

What do you mean by depth though? Today Saints were missing Meli (rested), Lomax (injured), Roby (injured), Hohaia (injured), Gardner (injured), Wheeler (always injured) and Tony Puletua (injured). Bar Tommy Makinson, who is 22 now I think, and Stu Howarth who was Salford's third choice hooker, all our stand-ins were 19 year olds, and we had a 33 year old fullback playing at stand off! So do we have squad depth? I wouldn't have thought so. It's just that we play our young players when our seniors are injured. We have now played 31 different players this season and our sixth young gun got his debut today. Maybe if Hull KR had previously not focused so much on recruiting antipodeans but instead had given more opportunities to their under 20s when they had one they wouldn't have been on the receiving end of an 84 point thumping but instead would have had enough young players with some experience knocking about on dual registrations or whatever to fill in the gaps.

#118 Padge

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 08:31 PM

Hull KR bring more than most clubs to SL in terms of supporters and player development and you all know it. However it's April 1st, so have fun while you can. There's another game next week.

So why is getting a spanking by Wigan today everyone else's fault?

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#119 Brigg Rover

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 08:38 PM

So you would still have a predominantly English team then with all your overseas players fit then? :ph34r:

Who knows.

#120 The Parksider

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 08:44 PM

Hudgell I'm sure knew what he was up against but my point would be that if he had been fortunate enough to take over at Leeds or Wigan rather than HKR and spent exactly the same amount of money in exactly the same areas, he would be reaping the rewards of either sides' current success. I think the current system places an extra onus on owners to over-invest in previously failing sides, whereas by the same turn you could invest only modestly in Leeds and Wigan but still achieve, such is the strength of their infrastrusture, commercial investment, demographic reach etc. I think it's very disengenuous - for example - of Gary Hetherington to talk about "poor management" at the smaller sides.

I just think the tide that sides like HKR are up against is too strong and I say this without hint of bias as I really don't ask for anything more than a fair crack of the whip.


Well by this post your starting to perform a bit and I agree with your anayisis and I thought Hetherington was out of order with some of his "poor management" jibes especially against Bradford. But that's another debate to quote your good self.

But Hull.K.R. were a club with a strong history, a large latent fanbase that came back in numbers (8,600 in 2008) and a strong amateur scene.

So your idea that Hudgell should have been done some favours because Rovers needed more work doing to bring them up to the top clubs standard is OK until one considers that the same argument applied in spades to Gateshead, Paris, and Celtic Crusaders, and applies to London too.

And these would have been clubs who'd have expanded Rugby Leagues base had they had the extra investment or favours to make them into what the top clubs are today. So if we are going to engineer some sort of parity between clubs, there are better options than Hull KR (or Cas or Widnes ;) )




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