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Super League as an Anglo-French competition is the best way forward


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#41 sweaty craiq

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 08:42 AM

I would love to see a Welsh club in Sl2 but they don't seem ready, so 2018 for entry. Putting 2 French clubs into Sl2 is a smallish gamble that could provide great rewards for the game, delaying the gamble delays the potential huge wins

#42 The Parksider

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 08:55 AM

I would love to see a Welsh club in Sl2 but they don't seem ready, so 2018 for entry.


what's this SL2 thing and can you describe me the process of either Welsh club "getting ready" for Superleague?

Is this the Sheffield way? Spend 30 years to get how close to having the fans, players and money??

#43 barnyia

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 09:20 AM

You'd be lucky to get two squads of 20 French players from the elite 1, every team apart from st esteve 13 Catalan have at least 4 foreign players, Avignon,pia and Carcasonne have around 7 foreign players each, something needs to be done as the elite 1 is dieing,

Avignon v lezignan yesterday was a game to get a play off place and 700 fans turned up!
Kids are coming through but as they reach elite 1 they stagnate,
Elite 1 teams play on average once a fortnight, sometimes they don't play for a month and then play two weekends then have two weeks off,so you never-seem to know when they're playing, Carcasonne played last night and I had no idea, and I live 20 mins from there and am co coach of one of there feeder teams!

#44 zorquif

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 09:26 AM

Villeneuve to Toulouse - 133km
Toulouse to Perpignan - 207km
Perpignan to Avignon - 244km

Villeneuve to Avignon (4 potential clubs) - 441km

Widnes to Hull (12 clubs) - 193km
Hull to London - 311km
Widnes to London - 332km

Yeah, pretty close! Maybe you should look at a map before you keep saying the same incorrect rubbish? Those clubs are all a HUGE distance away from each other! You could include Carcassonne, Montpellier and Marseille in that lot and still not step on any other clubs' toes.

HUGE amount of potential there. And we're not talking about adding clubs like Crusaders (who had only 3 years of history before joining SL, before moving to Wrexham, who had zero).
Villeneuve Leopards (est. 1934)
Toulouse Olympique (est. 1937)
Catalan Dragons (est. 2000 as UTC through a merger of St Esteve (est. 1965) and XIII Catalan (est. 1935))
Avignon Bisons (est. 1914, joined RL in 1944).

These are long established clubs in huge areas. Not fly by night, stick pins on the map expansion dreams.



#45 zorquif

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 09:37 AM

The way you quote that is a little disingenuous. They are all along one road, not some giant area. Also, what is the point in comparing to distances in England? It's 880 km from Villeneuve to paris. So in terms of thee size of the country it seems that the trip along the E80 between these clubs would seem less to your average French man than the trip along the m62 Does to the average englishman.

#46 zorquif

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 09:38 AM

And I can't use a smart phone!

#47 Marty Funkhouser

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 10:04 AM

The standard of rugby on the pitch this season has been outstanding and unpredictable.


Where can i view this outstanding standard of RL because it has not been on my screen or at any of the live matches i have attended?
Close , exciting (and drawn) matches and big swings do not equal fantastic standard from the evidence i have seen. I have just witnessed one of the lowest quality Hull derbies i can remember when both clubs have been top division outfits. The level of, or no existence of, skill and thinking in the game was painful at times. The numerous experienced RL people i have spoken to about he game have all been of a similar opinion so i know it just isn't me.

This has also been evident in plenty of other games, no , most,games i have seen this year so far. I was taken aback for example, when seeing Warrington live , how the level of their performance had dropped in comparison to the later stages of last season. The basic level of bone-headedness of some players and tactics is irritating. the fact that RL has evolved into a game where some players just run up and down the same 15 yard width of grass, performing a few very specific duties, for 80 minutes is much to blame.

I think it is also fair to draw an inference that a lot of clubs are deliberately not playing at "full whack" at the moment however this is surely detrimental to the standard of our game as a whole. The only way to raise standards is to ensure that players and teams need to play approaching their best each and every game. Thats a whole other debate of course, but as to this thread the introduction of further "weak" French teams would only dumb down the standard further and for this and plenty of other reasons is a big no at this moment in time.

#48 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 10:58 AM

The way you quote that is a little disingenuous. They are all along one road, not some giant area.

Are you kidding me? That's like saying because Newcastle and London are along one road (A1) that it's not some giant area! It's not like you can walk down it! I think you need to get a sense of scale.

Also, what is the point in comparing to distances in England? It's 880 km from Villeneuve to paris. So in terms of thee size of the country it seems that the trip along the E80 between these clubs would seem less to your average French man than the trip along the m62 Does to the average englishman.

That is a ridiculous comparison! Just because the country is bigger doesn't mean people think distances aren't as big compared to smaller countries! I can't believe that's even been used as an argument!

That's like saying New York to Jacksonville along Interstate 95 isn't that big a distance to Americans because the country is huge, and doesn't cover that big an area because it's along one road (despite that road being over 1,500km)!

Pretty close? Give it a rest. It's a huge distance to anyone travelling whether it's one road in Andorra or on Jupiter.
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#49 zorquif

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 11:12 AM

To use the American comparison, most Americans consider a two hour drive to be nothing, but I think that most English people would consider that a fairly long drive. It's all about perceptions. I suppose that I can't speak for the French, but comparing distances between French clubs and those between English clubs is not valid.

The way your listed the distances made it sound like a quadrilateral with each club at a corner. That would cover considerably more area than a line with the clubs on it, which this more or less is.

#50 zorquif

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 11:13 AM

Also, where is the guarantee that these clubs will attract new, major sponsors?

#51 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 12:19 PM

To use the American comparison, most Americans consider a two hour drive to be nothing, but I think that most English people would consider that a fairly long drive. It's all about perceptions. I suppose that I can't speak for the French, but comparing distances between French clubs and those between English clubs is not valid.

But you'll try though, eh?

The point in making is that it has nothing to do with the size of a country as to what distances they find long to travel.
I'd say it's more to do with population density. France being still a pretty densely populated country.

However, regardless of whether they consider it far to travel it not, the four mentioned places ARE NOT pretty close. They are all 2-3 hours away from the next club, with the two furthest being 4.5 hours away from each other. That's long no matter where you're from!
They're all from different departments

The way your listed the distances made it sound like a quadrilateral with each club at a corner. That would cover considerably more area than a line with the clubs on it, which this more or less is.

I was simply giving the distance from the first club to the next nearest club, and finishing with the distance from the first on the line to the last. I've no idea why you think I've looked it it as a quadrilateral?

Regardless, have you actually looked at a map of France recently? Villeneuve-Toulouse-Perpignan-Avignon is hardly a straight line. Take Avignon out and yeah OK, it's fairly straight. But you'd probably be fair to say its a quadrilateral (or the very least a triangle). Not that it matters anyway. It's not like that's how you'd measure the target area for the fans. A circle drawn around each club is how you'd do that, with huge gaps in between each club due to how far away they are from each other!

You can try and justify it all you like, but in no way are those four places close in terms if travelling to and from sporting events regularly. Someone from Avignon will struggle massively to get to Catalans every other week to watch them play.
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#52 zorquif

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 12:29 PM

Regardless, have you actually looked at a map of France recently? Villeneuve-Toulouse-Perpignan-Avignon is hardly a straight line.

Where did I say straight line? Maybe an arc.

You can try and justify it all you like, but in no way are those four places close in terms if travelling to and from sporting events regularly. Someone from Avignon will struggle massively to get to Catalans every other week to watch them play.


I'm not talking about fans necessarily. I am talking about major sponsors. Who will still see RL as a regional game with these clubs involved. So, why does getting this lot in lead to the aforementioned commercial development of the game?

#53 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 12:30 PM

Also, where is the guarantee that these clubs will attract new, major sponsors?

There isn't one. No one has said there is. What is there is huge potential from a completely different market. The main revenue stream potential is from TV companies, as Sky don't broadcast there. Seeing as Sky pay tens of millions for coverage, that's how big a market we could tap into should we get the profile up. No other potential club in the UK can match that.

I'd take a team from the East Coast of the US if it brought a TV deal with it!

Without the TV deal, it won't happen. That's what we're saying.
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#54 zorquif

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 12:36 PM

But would sky pay as much? Surely we'd just be replacing a chunk of sky money with a chunk of money from another TV station? I wouldn't really call that a commercial development...

#55 The Parksider

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 12:52 PM

But would sky pay as much? Surely we'd just be replacing a chunk of sky money with a chunk of money from another TV station? I wouldn't really call that a commercial development...


The SLE bigwigs are reported to have told Toulouse another french club in SL will need a TV contract to go along with it.

Who knows if this is wishful thinking, a tactic to put as much pressure on Toulouse/Les Cats to come up with something, or a genuine financial requirement.

I wouldn't assume any one of the three.......

AFAIK the current SKY contract rolls on and AFAIK there has been no negotiation, let alone what SKY may pay if the Tournament goes a step towards anglo french, or maybe a step back to M62 if London go etc etc.

Toulouse promise big money which is an attraction but it's not up front. It apparently will flow once the license is secured. Who knows if this is real who knows if Toulouse are using this as a ploy to get SLE chasing this unsecured money?........

Edited by The Parksider, 31 March 2013 - 12:53 PM.


#56 The Parksider

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 01:01 PM

Where can i view this outstanding standard of RL because it has not been on my screen or at any of the live matches i have attended?
Close , exciting (and drawn) matches and big swings do not equal fantastic standard from the evidence i have seen. I have just witnessed one of the lowest quality Hull derbies i can remember when both clubs have been top division outfits. The level of, or no existence of, skill and thinking in the game was painful at times. The numerous experienced RL people i have spoken to about he game have all been of a similar opinion so i know it just isn't me.

This has also been evident in plenty of other games, no , most,games i have seen this year so far. I was taken aback for example, when seeing Warrington live , how the level of their performance had dropped in comparison to the later stages of last season. The basic level of bone-headedness of some players and tactics is irritating. the fact that RL has evolved into a game where some players just run up and down the same 15 yard width of grass, performing a few very specific duties, for 80 minutes is much to blame.

I think it is also fair to draw an inference that a lot of clubs are deliberately not playing at "full whack" at the moment however this is surely detrimental to the standard of our game as a whole. The only way to raise standards is to ensure that players and teams need to play approaching their best each and every game. Thats a whole other debate of course, but as to this thread the introduction of further "weak" French teams would only dumb down the standard further and for this and plenty of other reasons is a big no at this moment in time.


And so as this belting post says, what we can work on is what are the chances are of Toulouse competing?

Les Catalans had the pick of French RL and added six or seven quality overseas players and set about coming erm...

Bottom of Superleague.

I'm not sure if Toulouse can find the same number and quality of imports, or top home grown stars that have been essential to Les Catalans rise towards the top of Superleague.

If Toulouse turned to bidding for and taking established French stars off Les Catalans then who knows they both may end up bottom of superleague at the end of 2015.

A third or fourth french club would have no chance, and the prospect of a two tier SL with English clubs coming 1-8 and the french 9-12 say fills me with dread!

#57 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 01:45 PM

And so as this belting post says, what we can work on is what are the chances are of Toulouse competing?

Les Catalans had the pick of French RL and added six or seven quality overseas players and set about coming erm...

Bottom of Superleague.

I'm not sure if Toulouse can find the same number and quality of imports, or top home grown stars that have been essential to Les Catalans rise towards the top of Superleague.

If Toulouse turned to bidding for and taking established French stars off Les Catalans then who knows they both may end up bottom of superleague at the end of 2015.

A third or fourth french club would have no chance, and the prospect of a two tier SL with English clubs coming 1-8 and the french 9-12 say fills me with dread!

Catalans had the advantage of having time to recruit as well. That year they finished bottom was the highest amount of points a team at the bottom has ever amassed to be fair, so it's not like they'd been stuffed and left wanting at least. The year after they got to Wembley, and year after that they were 3rd so they grew pretty quickly!

Given some preparation time, they could bring in some interested imports, sign up a few locals and go from there. Catalans may take a slight hit at first, but they've got talent coming through as well to replace them. At the end of the day, the likes of Bosc, Barthau, Escare, Fakir, Pelissier and Baile aren't even first choice at the moment. They're all very good players and should be first choice somewhere. I'd take Bosc at Hull at the moment!
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#58 YCKonstantine

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 02:05 PM

At the end of the day, the likes of Bosc, Barthau, Escare, Fakir, Pelissier and Baile aren't even first choice at the moment. They're all very good players and should be first choice somewhere. I'd take Bosc at Hull at the moment!

I personally think it would do the game a lot of good if more French players were playing in English teams.

It's time to park the camels.


#59 slowdive

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 08:53 PM

And so as this belting post says, what we can work on is what are the chances are of Toulouse competing?

Les Catalans had the pick of French RL and added six or seven quality overseas players and set about coming erm...

Bottom of Superleague.

I'm not sure if Toulouse can find the same number and quality of imports, or top home grown stars that have been essential to Les Catalans rise towards the top of Superleague.

If Toulouse turned to bidding for and taking established French stars off Les Catalans then who knows they both may end up bottom of superleague at the end of 2015.

A third or fourth french club would have no chance, and the prospect of a two tier SL with English clubs coming 1-8 and the french 9-12 say fills me with dread!

The success of many the French youth sides though suggest there is talent there and an extra team could offer an outlet for some of that French talent.
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#60 Viking Warrior

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 10:31 PM

Les Catalans brought 9280 paying fans to Superleague last year and Catstleford 6709.

Every time these two clubs play at home Catalans provide the game with an income from 2,500 extra fans over Castleford.

I also suspect sponsorship, advertising and directors gifts income at Catalans is way above Castleford's income.

You have only looked at one aspect of the finances, and from that concluded Halifax would be a good bet for SL, yet Halifax have no money and if they got battered week in week out not only would 800 Halifax fans not travel, they'd be lucky to get 3,000 crowds.

They didn't get them in 2003.

Look at Salford and London who can't compete and where their crowds got to.

A little biased there Warrior??



parky i am on about away support, i went over to perpignan for our game and yes there were quite a lot of home fans but by the same token due to sheer cost they bring little if any fans to away games in england. please read properly before posting drivel in future..
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