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Super League as an Anglo-French competition is the best way forward


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#61 Viking Warrior

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 10:36 PM

You'd be lucky to get two squads of 20 French players from the elite 1, every team apart from st esteve 13 Catalan have at least 4 foreign players, Avignon,pia and Carcasonne have around 7 foreign players each, something needs to be done as the elite 1 is dieing,

Avignon v lezignan yesterday was a game to get a play off place and 700 fans turned up!
Kids are coming through but as they reach elite 1 they stagnate,
Elite 1 teams play on average once a fortnight, sometimes they don't play for a month and then play two weekends then have two weeks off,so you never-seem to know when they're playing, Carcasonne played last night and I had no idea, and I live 20 mins from there and am co coach of one of there feeder teams!


at last a realist................
"Why is Napoleon crying ?" said one sailor to the other, "poor ###### thinks he's being exiled to st helens" came the reply.



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#62 The Parksider

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Posted 31 March 2013 - 10:50 PM

for arguments sake say we get rid of castleford and bring in toulouse, that means instead of getting around 800 cas fans at away games then we will have 0 toulouse fans. surely if a club is going to miss out from the current 14 then featherstone or halifax should replace them or we will have even more clubs struggling due to the decrease in revenue from away fans.......


Read it again and that IS drivel......

Edited by The Parksider, 31 March 2013 - 10:52 PM.


#63 R J Wagsmith

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 01:53 AM

I'm afraid it is the original post which is drivel. It is not helped by a plethora of grammatical mistakes.

#64 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 08:22 AM

parky i am on about away support, i went over to perpignan for our game and yes there were quite a lot of home fans but by the same token due to sheer cost they bring little if any fans to away games in england. please read properly before posting drivel in future..


He knows what you're on about. He's just showing you why it is such an invalid point.
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#65 zorquif

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 09:45 AM

What do you base your convictions on? You can't can a number of pro clubs (and livelihoods) on the basis of a gut feeling! The local marie is something I have no idea about - what kind of input are you looking at there, and what is the likelihood of getting it?

One more thing - are the clubs that are being bandied about on this thread not also traditional areas? How then does allowing these into Superleague expand media, sponsorship and general awareness outside of traditional areas?

#66 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 10:05 AM

What do you base your convictions on? You can't can a number of pro clubs (and livelihoods) on the basis of a gut feeling!

I'd say it's more than a guy feeling the fact that it keeps getting brought up by many people, including those in charge. It's a strategic development that needs to be handled correctly.

The local marie is something I have no idea about - what kind of input are you looking at there, and what is the likelihood of getting it?

I too would like to hear more about this.

One more thing - are the clubs that are being bandied about on this thread not also traditional areas? How then does allowing these into Superleague expand media, sponsorship and general awareness outside of traditional areas?

Because although these areas have had RL for a long time, the interest in the French Elite is very low. SL would bring about a huge amount of local interest and awareness.
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#67 Viking Warrior

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 10:06 AM

I'm afraid it is the original post which is drivel. It is not helped by a plethora of grammatical mistakes.


i thought it was a post on an internet forum not a thesis for a masters degree??? i'd post mine but it is too long and complex for most on here to understand.............
"Why is Napoleon crying ?" said one sailor to the other, "poor ###### thinks he's being exiled to st helens" came the reply.



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#68 zorquif

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 10:14 AM

I'd say it's more than a guy feeling the fact that it keeps getting brought up by many people, including those in charge. It's a strategic development that needs to be handled correctly.



Like who? That's not a snipe, I just haven't heard anyone say it!

Because although these areas have had RL for a long time, the interest in the French Elite is very low. SL would bring about a huge amount of local interest and awareness.



So it would expand media, sponsorship and general awareness inside traditional areas?

#69 The Parksider

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 10:23 AM

i thought it was a post on an internet forum not a thesis for a masters degree??? i'd post mine but it is too long and complex for most on here to understand.............


Capital "I" please :D

#70 The Parksider

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 10:37 AM

Guys the reality is the current SL is dying on its backside in terms of media/sponsorship and general awareness outside of the traditional areas.

Expanding the comp into France is the only way forward and i am 101% convinced that the crowds in France will respond also one has to remember the financial monies any new french teams will also receive from their local marie and region something the SL clubs in the UK can only dream of.

CM


A fair point but it's "I" and not "i"..............

The demise of London raised the specter of an M62 league which in this day and age won't IMHO attract any great sponsorship (albeit Mr. McManus feels the lack of major sponsorship is merely down to the RFL) so it's logical the SLE bigwigs would look to Toulouse again.

I'm interested in your point as regards local civic funding for French clubs (as opposed to Wakefield Council's not a penny attitude) as this is Toulouse's trump card along with local industry getting on board.

But all the riches in the world (as per Dr. Koukash) won't make Toulouse that competitive, let alone any third or fourth club. Les Cats have started the re-birth process for French RL and I feel it essential they aren't left as sole "outsiders" in an M62 league, so I'm fine with Toulouse, but their entry has to be the catalyst for further growth of the French game before any further moves to an Anglo-French league.

Dumping the odd non competitive M62 club to make way for one french club OK, but wholesale changes risk wholesale failure both sides of the Channel????

#71 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 11:08 AM

Like who? That's not a snipe, I just haven't heard anyone say it!

It's OK, I didn't take it as a snipe.
Blake Solly and Ralph Rimmer have just visited France, and a second French club ebtering was one of the topics discussed.
http://www.to13.com/...xiii-en-france/
"Blake SOLLY : L’impact serait bénéfique pour notre compétition mais aussi et surtout pour le développement du Rugby à XIII en France. L’intégration des Dragons Catalans en Super League a amené une nouvelle dynamique. Le club s’est très bien structuré, les Catalans se sont mobilisés derrière leur équipe et depuis quelques mois, BeIN SPORT diffuse l’ensemble de leurs matchs. Par conséquent, nous avons une opportunité de développer le rugby à XIII en France. Je suis convaincu que la Super League et le Rugby à XIII français sont complémentaires. L’arrivée d’une deuxième équipe française sera bénéfique pour l’Equipe de France."

Google translate:
"Blake SOLLY: The impact would be beneficial to our competition but also and especially for the development of Rugby League in France. The integration of Catalans Dragons in Super League has brought a new dynamic. The club is very well structured, the Catalans have rallied behind their team and for a few months, SPORT bein broadcast all their games. Therefore, we have an opportunity to develop rugby league in France. I am convinced that the Super League and Rugby League French are complementary. The arrival of a second French team will benefit Team France."

So it would expand media, sponsorship and general awareness [i]inside traditional areas?

It depends what you mean by traditional. Traditional in that the area has an established RL club, yes. Traditional in that the area has a fully professional club? Definitely not. And that's how awareness, interest, participation and sponsorship will spread and grow.
Every area along the M62 already has this, and if anything it's saturated.
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#72 audois

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 11:12 AM

You'd be lucky to get two squads of 20 French players from the elite 1, every team apart from st esteve 13 Catalan have at least 4 foreign players, Avignon,pia and Carcasonne have around 7 foreign players each, something needs to be done as the elite 1 is dieing,

Avignon v lezignan yesterday was a game to get a play off place and 700 fans turned up!
Kids are coming through but as they reach elite 1 they stagnate,
Elite 1 teams play on average once a fortnight, sometimes they don't play for a month and then play two weekends then have two weeks off,so you never-seem to know when they're playing, Carcasonne played last night and I had no idea, and I live 20 mins from there and am co coach of one of there feeder teams!


Alan playing in Elite1/2 at the moment you have the following who have all played for the Dragons in SL.

1 Stacul
2 Khattabi
3 Sadaoui
4 Quintilla
5 Vaccari
6 Gigot ( Cronulla Sharks reserves)
7 Marginet
8 Griffi
9 Kane Bentley
10 Martins (Whitehaven)
11 Gossard
12 Andrew Bentley
13 Baile

I've included Baile & Vaccari although they've played for Catalan this term but are not in the original 25 man squad. If someone like Toulouse were ready tomorrow players like them would be targetted I reckon. These two players plus Stacul, Gossard have more than 270 SL appearances under their belts.

Edited by audois, 01 April 2013 - 11:14 AM.

si tu (remi casty) devais envoyer un fax au president guasch?
"Un grand bravo pour tout ce que vous avez fait, et merci de m'avoir embarqué dans cette aventure."


"Just as we had been Cathars, we were treizistes, men apart."
Jean Roque, Calendrier-revue du Racing-Club Albigeois, 1958-1959


"It involves matters much greater than drafting the new rules...the original and existing games have their own powerful appeal to their players and public and have the sentiments which history inspires"
Harold 'Jersey' Flegg 1933

#73 zorquif

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 11:22 AM

A fair point but it's "I" and not "i"..............

The demise of London raised the specter of an M62 league which in this day and age won't IMHO attract any great sponsorship


Do you mean spectre? ;-)

#74 The Parksider

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 11:24 AM

Do you mean spectre? ;-)


:D

#75 audois

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 11:29 AM

Les Cats have started the re-birth process for French RL and I feel it essential they aren't left as sole "outsiders" in an M62 league, so I'm fine with Toulouse, but their entry has to be the catalyst for further growth of the French game before any further moves to an Anglo-French league.


Key/Spot on.
si tu (remi casty) devais envoyer un fax au president guasch?
"Un grand bravo pour tout ce que vous avez fait, et merci de m'avoir embarqué dans cette aventure."


"Just as we had been Cathars, we were treizistes, men apart."
Jean Roque, Calendrier-revue du Racing-Club Albigeois, 1958-1959


"It involves matters much greater than drafting the new rules...the original and existing games have their own powerful appeal to their players and public and have the sentiments which history inspires"
Harold 'Jersey' Flegg 1933

#76 zorquif

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 12:29 PM

It's OK, I didn't take it as a snipe.
Blake Solly and Ralph Rimmer have just visited France, and a second French club ebtering was one of the topics discussed.


I read those quotes as saying that another team in SL would help Team France. Not help the commercial development of the game or to increase awareness of SL in non-traditional areas. By which I mean areas where there are not already clubs.

I agree that having a stronger Team France would help the game overall by creating better international competitions. However, it seems like a bloody long game to play. Would it not be better to have French feeder clubs to the current SL teams, with salary cap exemptions (for example) for French players? If simply creating a better Team France is the goal.

I think the minimum thing that is required is a clear vision as to why we want French clubs in!

#77 zorquif

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 12:42 PM

Many on this forum have to understand how sport works in France its normal for the maire and region to put monies into local clubs,in the UK the taxpayers would be up in arms:)))))

Clubs like PIA receive 90% of their funding from the maire which would equate to around Euros 800000.00 a season for a small village this is a massive amount of funds.

Gentlemen we are now moving to critical and someone out there needs to get a grip on things as i have stated on here many times SL clubs in the UK have to bite the bullet and except that French TV will NOT put up any cash until they see 3/4 french clubs in the league with a thriving comp.

What is the alternative? I will tell you what it is :( a comp that will slowly die a death over the next few years one only has to look at the fact that sky are now moving matches away from SKY SPORTS 1 onto 2 and 3 and putting them up against Union and Football matches at the same time (This was NOT happening a few years back) it is basically saying you know what we think SL in its current form has reached its max potential:(((( and this will be reflected in future by the amount of money they offer for a new contract.

A good mate of mine used to work for the NFL and the unofficial slogan in the marketing department was EXPAND OR DIE:)))

CM



So how much did Toulouse get when they were in NL1 or whatever it was then?If you can only get it in first grade, is this money guaranteed from year to year, and how much is it?

And I can't see how you can destroy 3 or 4 clubs, and all the jobs that go with that,on the promise that French TV would stump up. Surely an agreement would have to be in place before any such wholesale changes would be made?

Further, could we be sure that the funding from French TV would make up for (never mind exceed) the revenue we would likely lose from Sky?

Just looking, and the expansion in the NFL seems to be much more controlled. The last time two new teams were introduced seems to be in 1995, and one of them was in Clemson, where gridiron is massive.

#78 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 01:04 PM

I read those quotes as saying that another team in SL would help Team France. Not help the commercial development of the game or to increase awareness of SL in non-traditional areas. By which I mean areas where there are not already clubs.

There are clubs everywhere in this country nearly. Does that mean they are all traditional areas?

Expanding the professional game properly requires going into areas that have clubs ready to step up, not just making up new clubs and hoping they grow into something.

It's pretty obvious that awareness would increase if there is a club there. It doesn't need to be mentioned.

Commercial development has been mentioned in other press releases in the past.

I agree that having a stronger Team France would help the game overall by creating better international competitions. However, it seems like a bloody long game to play. Would it not be better to have French feeder clubs to the current SL teams, with salary cap exemptions (for example) for French players? If simply creating a better Team France is the goal.

No. Young French players may not want to move away from their families to a completely different culture and language. It's a huge barrier and one that could see tonnes of players missed out on or lost to the game. It would be far far simpler to just have a team in the area they're from that they can play for! We need to be breaking down barriers to participation, not creating them!

I think the minimum thing that is required is a clear vision as to why we want French clubs in!

We want French clubs in to:
Improve the French national team, which will improve the international game.
To open up new areas to produce players, which will in time increase the quality of the league.
To open up new areas for revenue, whether that be from paying spectators, sponsors, media.
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#79 zorquif

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 01:15 PM

So creating awareness in areas where there is already awareness will lead to commercial development?

I don't see how feeder teams creates barriers to participation. It creates opportunities. Just ones that you think not all people would take.

#80 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 01 April 2013 - 01:23 PM

So how much did Toulouse get when they were in NL1 or whatever it was then?If you can only get it in first grade, is this money guaranteed from year to year, and how much is it?

No idea. I can't imagine much as the Championship isn't exactly a high profile competition in France that will see sponsors come on board. Sponsorship will increase as TV coverage does. Carlos has spoken a lot in the past about his commercial links in the city, which will be key in discussions between them and the RFL.

And I can't see how you can destroy 3 or 4 clubs, and all the jobs that go with that,on the promise that French TV would stump up. Surely an agreement would have to be in place before any such wholesale changes would be made?

If the clubs aren't up to it, they will go. That's sport. That's how it works. You can't keep the failing in just to save people's jobs. New jobs will be created.

Further, could we be sure that the funding from French TV would make up for (never mind exceed) the revenue we would likely lose from Sky?

Why would we lose Sky money? The figures are still large. A European competition seems to be hit property in union and football.

Just looking, and the expansion in the NFL seems to be much more controlled. The last time two new teams were introduced seems to be in 1995, and one of them was in Clemson, where gridiron is massive.

The NFL have added/relocated loads of teams over the last two decades. And they're talking of adding even more.

I don't think anyone is expecting more than one French club to join the league initially.
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