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RIP Hull KR?


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#181 The Parksider

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 06:51 AM

I called you obtuse because you keep typing "what's your point?" like some demented parrot. I also pointed out that Bradford won back to back Championships and still couldn't crack a 6,000 average. So we are now using the population of the town or city as a back up for your logic. So let's lose Saints and Wigan straight away (populations in 2011,  Sts 100,000 approx. and Wigan 81,000 approx.) or are they allowed to bring in supporters from outside of the towns themselves but no other team is? Now, what's YOUR point?

It's sad you have to call names, but the parrot thing is ironic as you sit on my shoulder and peck away.

The proposal was Halifax can get SL gates as big as Bradfords SL gates, but the reality is that they haven't done that.

I posted the populations because the original proposal was that Halifax would draw fans from "Calderdale" and a 200,000 population was cited. Calderdale includes Brighouse which is right in the middle of Halifax Bradford and Huddersfield.

That's the context of the reply that if you look at catchment areas for fans they actually overlap where clubs are close to each other, heavily so in Hull for instance.

As for Saints they have a catchment area of 100K do they - I think you should think again, and as for Wigan they are just a small town like Leigh?? Maybe Lobby's right that if Leigh came into SL they "could" get gates as big as Wigan's.

But once again I'd just check the "facts" and take the view they wouldn't.....

#182 The Parksider

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 06:54 AM

Bradford got to Wembley for the first time the year before the 1997 season, in what was the best final ever at Wembley. They were on a massive upswing. I they were already a top three club too by 1997

What is it you want me to concede with this post??

What's your point??

#183 The Parksider

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 07:02 AM

Hasn't O'Connor already stated that he won't be dipping into his bottomless money well for much longer?

I tell you what.

It's time you answered my question above first....

"Is it really the answer to the problem to cut down the businesses of at least nine SL clubs who can pay full cap and get the crowds in such a radical fashion just to suit two clubs (Cas and HKR)?? Also what would the effect be of SL clubs all paying a reduced amount in salaries so they all could compete top to bottom?? Would this lead to Superleague growth or a recession do you think??

Lets look closely at your point for a change that the league should be restructured "for all clubs" because this is the debate in hand, it's not about sitting on my shoulder pecking at anything you can find to unpick.

#184 The Parksider

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 07:23 AM

1. You don't grasp that that is why the NRL teams can bounce back and SL clubs can't. Money, Money, Money.
 
2. So now your argument is that some clubs in close proximity to each other can successfully stand alone but others can't. It does not follow that the ones that can't cannot successfully convert to the model of those that can. Fev are doing Ok, Wakefield are doing ok and there is a current thread on this board about possible security for the Tigers.
 
3. The NRL is the poster child for clubs in close proximity all being able to make it. Their league is still at least 50% Sydney based with all the clubs there in close proximity to each other.

Your falling over yourself to disagree with me as usual but you actually agree to a point. Of course it's about money and I have always said that if the poor local relation can find a rich man to bankroll the club through directors "gifts" (as opposed to loans) then it can exist in SL without making losses and that's OK up to a point.

But they get fed up and they stop. That's the point and that is what has happened here with Cas and HKR. Once they stop, the team disintegrates, performances drop, crowds drop.

Rich men making up losses is fine up to a point, but when your down at the bottom of the ESL table like Widnes or Salford how do you climb back up if there aren't many quality players to bring into your team to bounce back?? How do Cas and HKR find players when the few quality lads they have go to Wigan and Hull

In Sydney there's a bigger supply of players and that now includes British players.

In Sydney there's a bigger supply of paying fans.

So of course several clubs can operate in the one city, but you can't compare Sydney to Hull and you can't compare Sydney to the Calder area.

#185 The Parksider

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 07:34 AM

The NRL is the poster child for clubs in close proximity all being able to make it. Their league is still at least 50% Sydney based with all the clubs there in close proximity to each other.

OK Hull has a population of 256,000. So an even share across two Hull SL clubs is 128,000.

Wakefield District inc Cas and Fev/Ponte has a population of 326,000. So an even share across three Calder SL clubs is 109,000.

Sydney has a population of 4,627,000 so an even share across nine sydney based NRL clubs is 514,000 people.

The sydney clubs have FIVE times the resources to go at and that's just fans.

I'm not going to go into the facts about Sydney having a bigger RL culture, I think that above probably is enough for me to respectfully suggest as you did to me that your comparison is "apples and oranges"

#186 deluded pom?

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 08:48 AM


That's the context of the reply that if you look at catchment areas for fans they actually overlap where clubs are close to each other, heavily so in Hull for instance.

As for Saints they have a catchment area of 100K do they - I think you should think again, and as for Wigan they are just a small town like Leigh?? Maybe Lobby's right that if Leigh came into SL they "could" get gates as big as Wigan's.

But once again I'd just check the "facts" and take the view they wouldn't.....

 

 

So there is no overlap of catchment areas for fans where Leeds/Bradford and Saints/Wigan are concerned?


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#187 deluded pom?

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 08:52 AM

I tell you what.

It's time you answered my question above first....

"Is it really the answer to the problem to cut down the businesses of at least nine SL clubs who can pay full cap and get the crowds in such a radical fashion just to suit two clubs (Cas and HKR)?? Also what would the effect be of SL clubs all paying a reduced amount in salaries so they all could compete top to bottom?? Would this lead to Superleague growth or a recession do you think??

Lets look closely at your point for a change that the league should be restructured "for all clubs" because this is the debate in hand, it's not about sitting on my shoulder pecking at anything you can find to unpick.

 

 

Like it or not a league with a SC that only a hadful can service and still run a sound business, will soon hit the rocks. There are two ways around this IMO. A smaller league with a stronger weakest link or a reduced SC that allows the weaker clubs the chance to compete.


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#188 The Parksider

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 11:01 AM

So there is no overlap of catchment areas for fans where Leeds/Bradford and Saints/Wigan are concerned?

Not at all.

My dentist lives in Leeds but chose to go watch Bradford.

That's one less person in Leeds who wants to go pay to watch RL at Headingley.

I think Viking Warrior was a saints lad who chose to go watch Widnes. One less for Saints.

One more for Widnes.

I think Wigan attract people from all over anecdotally Chorley, Manchester, Oldham and so on have been mentioned.

But I don't think Halifax getting in SL will see them flooding in from all over the north do you?

Didn't work for Widnes.

Edited by The Parksider, 14 April 2013 - 11:02 AM.


#189 The Parksider

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 11:05 AM

Like it or not a league with a SC that only a hadful can service and still run a sound business, will soon hit the rocks. There are two ways around this IMO. A smaller league with a stronger weakest link or a reduced SC that allows the weaker clubs the chance to compete.

Hurrah, I think we agree.

And back to the point I made before we had all the Parrot jokes, if the smaller league means such as the Wakefield area or the Hull area end up with just one SL club for the next 15 years we just may see those clubs competing strongly as they pick up much of the resources in that region.

#190 Just to be clear

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 02:02 PM

OK Hull has a population of 256,000. So an even share across two Hull SL clubs is 128,000.

 

Just to be clear, why do you ridicule the catchment of Wigan and St Helens being defined as just the population of the towns yet reduce Hull to just those living within the boundaries of the local council, one of the few for major towns or cities in the UK not to include its immediate suburbs?

 

There are no other professional clubs for almost 50 miles but you have dismissed those living just a 10 minute drive from the stadiums.



#191 deluded pom?

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 05:43 PM

Not at all.

My dentist lives in Leeds but chose to go watch Bradford.

That's one less person in Leeds who wants to go pay to watch RL at Headingley.

I think Viking Warrior was a saints lad who chose to go watch Widnes. One less for Saints.

One more for Widnes.

 

I don't see your point (seriously).


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#192 Ullman

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 07:15 PM

Just to be clear, why do you ridicule the catchment of Wigan and St Helens being defined as just the population of the towns yet reduce Hull to just those living within the boundaries of the local council, one of the few for major towns or cities in the UK not to include its immediate suburbs?

 

There are no other professional clubs for almost 50 miles but you have dismissed those living just a 10 minute drive from the stadiums.

You make a very good point. The population of the city is significantly higher than the 250,000 living within the Kingston upon Hull city council boundary.


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#193 Blind side johnny

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 07:25 PM

Not at all.

My dentist lives in Leeds but chose to go watch Bradford.

That's one less person in Leeds who wants to go pay to watch RL at Headingley.

I think Viking Warrior was a saints lad who chose to go watch Widnes. One less for Saints.

One more for Widnes.

I think Wigan attract people from all over anecdotally Chorley, Manchester, Oldham and so on have been mentioned.

But I don't think Halifax getting in SL will see them flooding in from all over the north do you?

Didn't work for Widnes.

 

 

 

Why did Sale RU have 8000 watching them on Friday night?

 

My question is pertinent as I believe arguing amongst RL fans as to which city/town/met area can attract more support is akin to two bald men arguing over a comb. Why isn't RL attracting bigger gates when RU has succeeded in growing theirs enormously?


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#194 Tre Cool

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Posted 14 April 2013 - 08:02 PM

Why did Sale RU have 8000 watching them on Friday night?



because humans are capable of incredible stupidity?

Edited by Tre Cool, 14 April 2013 - 08:02 PM.


#195 The Parksider

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 05:37 AM

Why did Sale RU have 8000 watching them on Friday night?
 
My question is pertinent as I believe arguing amongst RL fans as to which city/town/met area can attract more support is akin to two bald men arguing over a comb. Why isn't RL attracting bigger gates when RU has succeeded in growing theirs enormously?

Because they seem to have captured an audience that extends all over the old Lancashire and Cheshire area.

They appeal regionally.

Do you think Halifax will do this if they get into Superleague?

#196 deluded pom?

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 05:43 AM

Well a small town's soccer team in Lancashire has fans worldwide and attracts 70,000+ to the vast majority of home games. ;)


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#197 The Parksider

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 05:54 AM

Just to be clear, why do you ridicule the catchment of Wigan and St Helens being defined as just the population of the towns yet reduce Hull to just those living within the boundaries of the local council, one of the few for major towns or cities in the UK not to include its immediate suburbs?
 
There are no other professional clubs for almost 50 miles but you have dismissed those living just a 10 minute drive from the stadiums.

Because Wigan and St.Helens are attractive clubs that win cups play great RL are household names, and produce many star players. That attractiveness for Wigan pulls fans from all over, and would seemingly do the same for Saints.

Clubs have neither "just" the town population to draw fans, but nor do they realistically have a limitless wider region to draw fans in numbers.

But the arguments put to me include the idea because Sydneys population can support nine clubs so the population of Hull can support two clubs.

Well Mr. Hudgell was clear it doesn't.

It was put to me last year Featherstone can pull fans regionally and they can, but will they? There's places where they don't support RL close by and places where they already have RL clubs so Fev fans have started to argue "logically" and estimate the club will get 5,000 fans.

We also have the suggestion that Wigan isn't a big town and they pull the biggest crowds, and therefore so can Leigh. When I asked how I was told Bolton is a very big place and there's a series of other towns, that will somehow deliver the fans.

To me and it's just IMHO this is all wishful thinking stuff. Leigh didn't pull 10K plus crowds.

Halifax may have 200K people in Calderdale but that didn't give them 10,000 crowds last time.

Sheffield get 1000 fans and have a population of well over 1,000,000 and Cas got 7,000 fans and they have a population of 39,000. Using the sum of the town itself OR using the sum of the regional population isn't any way at all to predict support for clubs.

So I use the actual figures and the historic figures, but as usual if figures don't suit people they make arguments which the facts don't support. Other arguments made in this vein include the idea "Nobody from Leigh watches Wigan" or "Nobody in Keighley watches Bradford"

Hope that is clear.

Edited by The Parksider, 15 April 2013 - 06:17 AM.


#198 gingerjon

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 05:58 AM

Why did Sale RU have 8000 watching them on Friday night?

 

My question is pertinent as I believe arguing amongst RL fans as to which city/town/met area can attract more support is akin to two bald men arguing over a comb. Why isn't RL attracting bigger gates when RU has succeeded in growing theirs enormously?

 

So across the entire M62 corridor professional RU draws 8,000 fans.

 

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#199 The Parksider

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 06:00 AM

I don't see your point (seriously).

If people in Leeds watch Bradford, people in Manchester watch Wigan, some bloke from Saints watches Widnes then so what. All it shows is you can't work on anything crowd wise other that the reality.

It's crowds that will make a club viable for SL or break a club, after which either the rich man pays for the empty seats or they go under like Leigh, Fax, Oldham, Workington and maybe HKR and Cas are following.

So Superleague needs clubs who can draw adequate fan bases. Quoting town or wider regional populations as to why we should persist with clubs who can't draw the fans is an empty thing to do. That's my point.

There's a limited RL audience and the question is how do we get 10K crowds to all the SL clubs from top to bottom if we want to maintain the cap as it is. the alternative is to drop the cap so clubs on 7,000 can be financially viable. But that has ramifications worth discussing...

Populations was a sideshow.

Care to go back to the original question I posed of you???

Edited by The Parksider, 15 April 2013 - 06:21 AM.


#200 bearman

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 06:33 AM

Children, if you can't play nicely I'll make you sit apart.
Read each others posts, your not that far from agreeing with each other.

Parksiders last line in his last post deserves an answer.
"There's a limited RL audience and the question is how do we get 10K crowds to all the SL clubs from top to bottom."

The reality is that IF we could achieve that figure then we would still struggle to make an impact on the national conscience, as soccers 3rd division is in that sort of category and how many column inches does that generate.

Please note Parksider appears to have edited out that question from his original post!

Edited by bearman, 15 April 2013 - 06:38 AM.

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