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#201 bearman

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 06:37 AM

Bump

Edited by bearman, 15 April 2013 - 06:38 AM.

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#202 Just to be clear

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 08:16 AM

Hope that is clear.

Just to be clear, one more question. You are saying that Pemberton is only part of Wigan's catchment because their catchment is "all over" while Hessle, despite being served by local city bus routes, including one which calls at the KC Stadium, is not part of Hull's because they are in a "wider region"?

And just one more thing, you say the likes of Halifax and Huddersfield cannot and will not draw fans regionally by using "actual figures and the historic figures". But you also say if they merged they will have a much larger catchment of the whole region and would draw from it, not just from the town in which they will play. You can see why I'm confused!

#203 Ullman

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 10:14 AM

So across the entire M62 corridor professional RU draws 8,000 fans.

 

Yes, rugby league should be in awe of this powerhouse.

I share your degree of anxiety.


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#204 The Parksider

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 11:40 AM

Just to be clear, one more question. You are saying that Pemberton is only part of Wigan's catchment because their catchment is "all over" while Hessle, despite being served by local city bus routes, including one which calls at the KC Stadium, is not part of Hull's because they are in a "wider region"?

And just one more thing, you say the likes of Halifax and Huddersfield cannot and will not draw fans regionally by using "actual figures and the historic figures". But you also say if they merged they will have a much larger catchment of the whole region and would draw from it, not just from the town in which they will play. You can see why I'm confused!

I don't know exactly where fans come from all I know is they mainly come from the areas around a club but certainly come from further afield as well.

But if someone says to me that Calderdale has a population of 200,000 so therefore Halifax can get a regular 10,000 crowd then I say "But Halifax have never had that level of regular support"

Same with Hull, look at the figures - the people who support the two clubs from wherever don't support Rovers in enough numbers for it to be stand alone viable. It's just a fact.

Same with Leigh. However I'm told that they are still planning for SL and when I ask where is a crowd going to come from when surely many people in Leigh probably now watch Wigan I'm told they will come from Bolton and nobody in Leigh watches Wigan.

When we discussed Fev I asked about how they will get a crowds and places like Barnsley were mentioned. Do you believe Barnsley will deliver an SL crowd to Fev?? I met two Barnsley lads who had watched Sheffield and when Hetherington went to Leeds they had started watching Leeds.

Then I was told that because Sydney can support nine NRL clubs then places like Hull and Leeds could support more than one SL club? But Sydney is a city of millions with a deep RL culture.

Try reading back over the posts to get the context of the argument.

What I AM saying is if you have one SL club in Hull, and one SL club in Calder then you may find these clubs can become profitable and compete with the Saints and Wigans, because over the years they may get more fans without a rival club chasing the new fans.

Last year 17,000 people watched three Calder clubs none of whom could make a dent on SL.

The area needs a profitable club to compete in SL i.e. it needs a club on crowds of over 10,000. The area has that capability, but what it does not have is a capability to deliver adequate crowds to three SL clubs.

Who knows maybe every man woman and child will become RL fans round there. But that's the wishful thinking that to me is not relevant to what we should do about Superleague.

#205 The Parksider

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 11:50 AM

Children, if you can't play nicely I'll make you sit apart.
Read each others posts, your not that far from agreeing with each other.

Parksiders last line in his last post deserves an answer.
"There's a limited RL audience and the question is how do we get 10K crowds to all the SL clubs from top to bottom."

The reality is that IF we could achieve that figure then we would still struggle to make an impact on the national conscience, as soccers 3rd division is in that sort of category and how many column inches does that generate.

Please note Parksider appears to have edited out that question from his original post!

Yes that was a mistake.

But that WAS the first question. Practically I don't think we can do it and we won't do it wishful thinking.

To balance the books we need to get the fans in at all the clubs, or drop the SC or a mixture of both.

One way is to get 10,000 in at as many clubs as possible.

I don't think it's doable looking at the figures. Ten SL clubs is probably the most looking at the figures

I think 7,000 is doable for 14 but that means we drop the SCap to about £1.1M on Hudgells figures.

The second question was will dropping the cap so all clubs can compete and hold their crowds, would that be good or bad for the game. I asked that of DP and await an answer.

If the answer is that won't affect SL then we should drop the cap to make sure all clubs can compete.

If the answer is we can't drop the cap or it will be a disaster the answer is to cut the clubs?.

IMHO it's a fair analysis on the figures we have.

Phrases like Calderdale is 200,000 people strong and Sydney can support nine pro clubs, has nowt to do with the debate in question.

IMHO!!

Edited by The Parksider, 15 April 2013 - 11:52 AM.


#206 The Parksider

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 11:56 AM

The reality is that IF we could achieve that figure then we would still struggle to make an impact on the national conscience, as soccers 3rd division is in that sort of category and how many column inches does that generate.

Well it may not get anyone sitting up and taking notice beyond RL world, but if it balances the books that is far far more important.

The unravelling of HKR and Cas is about the game balancing the books to survive don't you think?

#207 keighley

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 02:27 PM

Because Wigan and St.Helens are attractive clubs that win cups play great RL are household names, and produce many star players. That attractiveness for Wigan pulls fans from all over, and would seemingly do the same for Saints.

Clubs have neither "just" the town population to draw fans, but nor do they realistically have a limitless wider region to draw fans in numbers.

But the arguments put to me include the idea because Sydneys population can support nine clubs so the population of Hull can support two clubs.

Well Mr. Hudgell was clear it doesn't.

It was put to me last year Featherstone can pull fans regionally and they can, but will they? There's places where they don't support RL close by and places where they already have RL clubs so Fev fans have started to argue "logically" and estimate the club will get 5,000 fans.

We also have the suggestion that Wigan isn't a big town and they pull the biggest crowds, and therefore so can Leigh. When I asked how I was told Bolton is a very big place and there's a series of other towns, that will somehow deliver the fans.

To me and it's just IMHO this is all wishful thinking stuff. Leigh didn't pull 10K plus crowds.

Halifax may have 200K people in Calderdale but that didn't give them 10,000 crowds last time.

Sheffield get 1000 fans and have a population of well over 1,000,000 and Cas got 7,000 fans and they have a population of 39,000. Using the sum of the town itself OR using the sum of the regional population isn't any way at all to predict support for clubs.

So I use the actual figures and the historic figures, but as usual if figures don't suit people they make arguments which the facts don't support. Other arguments made in this vein include the idea "Nobody from Leigh watches Wigan" or "Nobody in Keighley watches Bradford"

Hope that is clear.

 

I doubt if Bradford get fans from Keighley. They are a mere 10 miles apart but it's a big ten miles. There is no motorway connection and the valley bottom route through Bingley and Shipley is congested and tortuous.  The hill top route through Denholme is a difficult road to traverse and is beset with speed traps. The train goes directly from Keighley to Bradford but then you have almost the same distance again to travel to get to Odsal. It is a difficult, annoying journey by any method.

 

In and amongst the RL supporters resident in Keighley there is a great deal of animosity towards the Bulls dating back to the SL dawn and the bulls percieved part in the Cougars being denied a SL place. Then there is an historic rivalry going back to the 1860s between the two towns and their sporting clubs.

 

There is bitterness that Keighley's independent governance was taken away and the town was lumped in with Bradford and has gotten the short end of the stick ever since.

 

Keighley has also been hit pretty hard by the recession and I don't think there are too many extra pounds available to support twice monthly trips to watch Bradford at SL prices. Do you have any evidence to suggest that Keighley is a happy hunting ground for the marketing of the Bulls or is this just more wishful thinking to prop up your argument.?



#208 bearman

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 04:49 PM

Well it may not get anyone sitting up and taking notice beyond RL world, but if it balances the books that is far far more important.The unravelling of HKR and Cas is about the game balancing the books to survive don't you think?


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#209 Blind side johnny

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 05:51 PM

So across the entire M62 corridor professional RU draws 8,000 fans.

 

Yes, rugby league should be in awe of this powerhouse.

 

 

I use Sale as one example of the gates that top level RU is attracting compared with top level RL. If you don't see this as a worrying trend then OK, I'm wrong, but I do believe that RL is in serious difficulties at present if it can't maintain and grow the numbers of supporters actively watching.

 

Don't imagine that Sky aren't monitoring such trends closely. The minute they decide that RL is no longer a commercial winner they will drop us like a hot brick. Whilst this is going on some seem to simply want to argue amongst themselves about which town has the most viable watching population. Pathetic!


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#210 deluded pom?

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 06:09 PM



The second question was will dropping the cap so all clubs can compete and hold their crowds, would that be good or bad for the game. I asked that of DP and await an answer.


 

 

 

If I had a crystal ball Parky I'd tell you. All I know is currently we don't have enough teams capable of being solvent and competitive using the current figures.


Edited by deluded pom?, 15 April 2013 - 06:09 PM.

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#211 The Parksider

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 05:38 AM

I use Sale as one example of the gates that top level RU is attracting compared with top level RL. If you don't see this as a worrying trend then OK, I'm wrong, but I do believe that RL is in serious difficulties at present if it can't maintain and grow the numbers of supporters actively watching.
 
Don't imagine that Sky aren't monitoring such trends closely. The minute they decide that RL is no longer a commercial winner they will drop us like a hot brick. Whilst this is going on some seem to simply want to argue amongst themselves about which town has the most viable watching population. Pathetic!

Well lets hope that's not aimed at me because I am trying to stick to the point about a Superleague that has to make decisions (and these may need to be be really radical and tough) to maintain a Superleague which is the only valuable thing we can sell to keep the game alive.

I too think it is a "bit off" shall we say to talk about crowds we don't get or have, and I agree we should look to ways to maintain and grow numbers of fans backing SL. My point is that it's not just "numbers" per se. You have two SL clubs close to each other sharing 12,000 fans equally and you have two busineses that leak money and are uncompetitive, You have one SL club only on 10,000 and you have less fans but break even.

As a principle that's fine, as a practice Lyndsay tried to do this in 1996. Not easy and nor is it easy to apply the principle today as clubs who thought they could go it alone unravel.

One shudders to think what would have happened if the millionaires had not got on board. Now what's your thoughts on a solution?

#212 The Parksider

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 05:46 AM

1. I doubt if Bradford get fans from Keighley.
 
2. In and amongst the RL supporters resident in Keighley there is a great deal of animosity towards the Bulls dating back to the SL dawn and the bulls percieved part in the Cougars being denied a SL place.

3. Do you have any evidence to suggest that Keighley is a happy hunting ground for the marketing of the Bulls or is this just more wishful thinking to prop up your argument.?

1. Here we go the "nobody supports Bradford in Keighley" stuff. Sadly few in Keighley support keighley.

2. You might have animosity but it's 17 years ago and they were going bust BIG TIME anyway.

3. I'm sure the Bulls should look to push themselves as far and wide as they can.

When Superleague clubs are struggling the game is struggling. If only a hundred people in and around Keighley go to Bulls it's couple of grand extra for Superleague's survival. I'm sure bringing back Mike Smith and trying to re-invent the past will be fiddling whilst Rome is burning.

Edited by The Parksider, 16 April 2013 - 05:48 AM.


#213 The Parksider

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 05:58 AM

If I had a crystal ball Parky I'd tell you.

Well you told me "A reduced SC that allows the weaker clubs the chance to compete" was a solution.

I just wondered wondered what you thought the effects of dropping the cap by £500K for around eight or nine clubs who can spend it would be. The first effect would be to take £4,000,000 in wages out of the professional game.

Your thoughts on whether this will matter for instance?

At least the plus side would be Neil Hudgell's club could compete without him having to spend anything personally. Good thing??

#214 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 06:15 AM

What I certainly don't buy is the idea staunch support passes from generation to generation. I think people make up their own minds........

People are influenced greatly by those who bring them up or they grow up with. That is where people learn, develop their values and generally take their interests.
No one is suggesting genetically. It's a strawman.

I'm not going to get into your crowd arguments again because you're still repeating the same things that were priced wrong the last 10 times you argued.
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#215 Blind side johnny

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 08:01 AM

Well lets hope that's not aimed at me because I am trying to stick to the point about a Superleague that has to make decisions (and these may need to be be really radical and tough) to maintain a Superleague which is the only valuable thing we can sell to keep the game alive.

I too think it is a "bit off" shall we say to talk about crowds we don't get or have, and I agree we should look to ways to maintain and grow numbers of fans backing SL. My point is that it's not just "numbers" per se. You have two SL clubs close to each other sharing 12,000 fans equally and you have two busineses that leak money and are uncompetitive, You have one SL club only on 10,000 and you have less fans but break even.

As a principle that's fine, as a practice Lyndsay tried to do this in 1996. Not easy and nor is it easy to apply the principle today as clubs who thought they could go it alone unravel.

One shudders to think what would have happened if the millionaires had not got on board. Now what's your thoughts on a solution?

 

 

 

The question that I am begging Parky is how has a game that we used to deride for being watched by "two men and a dog" built itself such a following that the top clubs attract crowds that regularly outnumber those at comparable RL games?

 

Instead of focusiing upon the merits of individual clubs the sport needs to look very hard at our image and attractiveness in general. If we were a "sexy2 sport in the first instance we wouldn't be anguishing upon the diminishing following in disparate parts of the Calder valley.

 

We blame the RFL, with much justification in this case, but just maybe the game and its fans get the leadership that they appear to deserve.

 

 

 

Rant over.


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#216 The Parksider

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 09:08 AM

The question that I am begging Parky is how has a game that we used to deride for being watched by "two men and a dog" built itself such a following that the top clubs attract crowds that regularly outnumber those at comparable RL games?
 
Instead of focusiing upon the merits of individual clubs the sport needs to look very hard at our image and attractiveness in general. If we were a "sexy2 sport in the first instance we wouldn't be anguishing upon the diminishing following in disparate parts of the Calder valley.

Sorry - took the rant out, I too think the clubs and fans are just as much to blame as the RFL but not having a go at anyone.

You ask "how has a game that we used to deride for being watched by "two men and a dog" built itself such a following that the top clubs attract crowds that regularly outnumber those at comparable RL games?"

Well in the old days two men and a dog watched RU amateur games played on parks particularly Richmond Park and Saracens home venue I believe.

Now they play fully professional in modern stadia and the clubs are largely competitive, they have attracted tens of thousands of new fans. It seems to me we can deduce that people will watch professional Rugby designed to attract the crowds, and designed to cater for them.

I don't see any difference when we went professional. Our clubs who have gone fully pro, improved their stadiums, have made an effort to put on a show, and are competing, have equally put on thousands of fans. Maybe Wigan and Leeds were already doing this before 1996, but Wire, Catalans, Bradford, Saints, Hull followed.

So I don't see a great difference. Sure only 2000 wanted to watch Salford, but only 2,000 wanted to watch Leeds Carnegie.

The list above for RL includes seven clubs and you can't make a league out of that and I think we need to try to get more clubs up to scratch.

I also think that Union who have a much bigger player base stop at 12 clubs, and don't look to be all inclusive for a reason. Maybe it's selfish? Maybe they felt a limited elite league was the best model for attracting the most fans and sponsors?

Maybe the difference is they have a whole new audience to go at whereas we as a semi pro game in 1996 already had an audience and have felt that we have to cater to the fans needs and wishes otherwise all would be lost. Many of those needs and wishes are stuck in the past.

But we are now losing it and if the model both codes seemingly throw up is to have a limited size league, with quality and competitiveness and get as many paying fans watching that, we may be OK.

But to do that means creating a Superlegue that is first and foremost financially stable, secondly is stable in terms of the clubs in it, and thirdly looks to attract every RL fan new and old to the selected clubs.

I think that has actually been going on for many years in our game, but not in any sort of a structured way. Part manipulation (cut P & R off), part left to chance (tout clubs to rich owners). The time may come when those who run the game will just say that's it. These are the clubs for Superleague until we say otherwise, and these clubs will get everything.

Edited by The Parksider, 16 April 2013 - 09:17 AM.


#217 Adeybull

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 10:20 AM

1. Here we go the "nobody supports Bradford in Keighley" stuff. Sadly few in Keighley support keighley.

2. You might have animosity but it's 17 years ago and they were going bust BIG TIME anyway.

3. I'm sure the Bulls should look to push themselves as far and wide as they can.

When Superleague clubs are struggling the game is struggling. If only a hundred people in and around Keighley go to Bulls it's couple of grand extra for Superleague's survival. I'm sure bringing back Mike Smith and trying to re-invent the past will be fiddling whilst Rome is burning.

Except, Keighley said it pretty much as it is. Pretty factual. Whether we like it or not.  I live in one of the villages up in the hills between Bradford and Keighley, on the most direct (hill) route between Cougar Park and Odsal, overlooking the Aire Valley.  Nearer indeed to Keighley than Bradford. There seems very little affinity for Bradford in the village - not that much for Keighley either; the nearest town is Bingley. Bradford is "over the hills", as is Keighley to an extent.  Bingley is just down in the valley. 

 

Don't underestimate the impact of geography: Keighley is part of Bradford Met district same as Ilkley; neither want to be there.  Keighley has much more in common with the other Aire Valley towns, and Ilkely with the Wharfedale towns and would much rather be part of North Yorkshire, or failing that Leeds.  Odsal overlooks the Calder Valley, and is at the extreme southern tip of the Bradford Met district.  It is places like Brighouse and Cleckheaton that more form its natural hinterland than Keighley and the Aire Valley.



#218 gingerjon

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 11:12 AM

I use Sale as one example of the gates that top level RU is attracting compared with top level RL. If you don't see this as a worrying trend then OK, I'm wrong, but I do believe that RL is in serious difficulties at present if it can't maintain and grow the numbers of supporters actively watching.

 

Don't imagine that Sky aren't monitoring such trends closely. The minute they decide that RL is no longer a commercial winner they will drop us like a hot brick. Whilst this is going on some seem to simply want to argue amongst themselves about which town has the most viable watching population. Pathetic!

 

Rugby union is an important product to Sky.  Its viewing figures are usually lower than for league but the advertising is - we are told - of equal or greater value.

 

But crowds are down in the RU Premiership (or were when I did a fag packet check a couple of weeks ago).  When I switch on for the lesser tourneys - Celto-Italo League, Euro Challenge Cup, Anglo-Welsh knockabout - the grounds never seem to look close to full.

 

Whatever is happening to rugby league attendance - and I'd be amazed if in the fifth year of what looks like a triple-dip recession they didn't go down - it won't help us any to worry about rugby union.


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#219 The Parksider

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 11:20 AM

Except, Keighley said it pretty much as it is. Pretty factual. Whether we like it or not.  I live in one of the villages up in the hills between Bradford and Keighley, on the most direct (hill) route between Cougar Park and Odsal, overlooking the Aire Valley.  Nearer indeed to Keighley than Bradford. There seems very little affinity for Bradford in the village - not that much for Keighley either; the nearest town is Bingley. Bradford is "over the hills", as is Keighley to an extent.  Bingley is just down in the valley. 
 
Don't underestimate the impact of geography: Keighley is part of Bradford Met district same as Ilkley; neither want to be there.  Keighley has much more in common with the other Aire Valley towns, and Ilkely with the Wharfedale towns and would much rather be part of North Yorkshire, or failing that Leeds.  Odsal overlooks the Calder Valley, and is at the extreme southern tip of the Bradford Met district.  It is places like Brighouse and Cleckheaton that more form its natural hinterland than Keighley and the Aire Valley.

That's a very interesting analysis thank you Adeybull. At the height of Courarmania Keighley averaged 4,781 fans. Sadly the business was heavily in debt.

Ironic that isn't it that at the height of their attraction as a club they were at the financial depths.

I don't know where these fans came from but I guess many were from keighley, dormant supporters willing to follow their local side on condition that local side is winning games heading for Superleague, and that the local side gets in Superleague and competes.

But 5,000 fans wasn't enough to pay the bills just as it won't pay the bills at Salford, nor will 6,000 pay the bills at Widnes and 7,000 won't pay the bills at Fartown, Cas or HKR.

The reality may well be most Keighley born and bred people will watch keighley in SL but not Bradford. I'm sure that thousands of HKR fans will watch HKR in Superleague but never Hull. These local rivalries were great for the old semi pro game but they work against us now.

Will these rivalries ever subside? They have in Leeds, and IMHO people in south Leeds attend Headingley in numbers.

#220 The Parksider

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 11:30 AM

Odsal overlooks the Calder Valley, and is at the extreme southern tip of the Bradford Met district.  It is places like Brighouse and Cleckheaton that more form its natural hinterland than Keighley and the Aire Valley.

And so in terms of attracting fans the entry of Halifax to SL alongside Fartown and Bradford would see the same situation we have in Hull and Calder especially if Featherstone entered SL.

You'd have seven SL clubs averaging 6-7000 fans per club with clubs all chasing many of the same fans.

Edited by The Parksider, 16 April 2013 - 11:53 AM.





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