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RIP Hull KR?


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#221 keighley

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 12:51 PM

1. Here we go the "nobody supports Bradford in Keighley" stuff. Sadly few in Keighley support keighley.

2. You might have animosity but it's 17 years ago and they were going bust BIG TIME anyway.

3. I'm sure the Bulls should look to push themselves as far and wide as they can.

When Superleague clubs are struggling the game is struggling. If only a hundred people in and around Keighley go to Bulls it's couple of grand extra for Superleague's survival. I'm sure bringing back Mike Smith and trying to re-invent the past will be fiddling whilst Rome is burning.

 

All good and well. Where is your evidence that several hundred Keighlians traipse to odsal on a regular basis.?

 

Oh by the way, the Bulls crowds appear to be falling like a rock ( 15,000 average in your dreams) They are in danger of not making the magical 10,000 and we all know what happened last time they didn't. They need to market to the people of Bradford. I would think Keighley is very low on their list of marketing priorities.

 

Oh, just as an aside, the Cougars are currently solvent and there are discussions and proposals flying around for a re vamp of the ground to a 10,000 capacity and a new stand, so Phoenix might be perching in the Keighley trees.

 

I think your pushing of Keighley as a fertile field for the Bulls to grow support is a pipe dream  Show me your evidence ? Or is it just one of your delusional ideas about the power and reach of SL?



#222 The Parksider

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 12:59 PM

I think your pushing of Keighley as a fertile field for the Bulls to grow support is a pipe dream  Show me your evidence ? Or is it just one of your delusional ideas about the power and reach of SL?

Nope. Never said that at all so carry on arguing with yourself.

All I said was that if a hundred people from keighley go to Odsal (where's YOUR evidence they don't) then that's 100 people putting money into SL.

5,000 people put money into keighley during Cougarmania and it all went down a black hole.

Sure you may have your dream of Bulls collapsing, but just like the Keigh;ey people won't support Bulls in their thousand nor will Bradford people provide the thousands you'll need to fill your 10,000 seater stand.

#223 Brigg Rover

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 01:06 PM

Really can't be bothered to read all of this thread, but the guy who started it is a complete troll when it comes to Rovers so am not really interested in his "opinion".

What I will say is that the club will always survive, even in the lower divisions. (Which I think are better anyway as every season in the lower leagues I really thought at the start of every season we had a chance of winning! I have never once thought that in "Super League")

I will never support a merged club in any shape or form as I support Hull Kingston Rovers, this is my team and it is my team for life. Even if we play on Tower Grange with Dockers.

#224 Lounge Room Lizard

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 01:25 PM

Odsal overlooks the Calder Valley, and is at the extreme southern tip of the Bradford Met district.  It is places like Brighouse and Cleckheaton that more form its natural hinterland than Keighley and the Aire Valley.

??? The Calder Valley is nowhere near Odsal and is the Valley between Todmorden and Sowerby Bridge which takes in Hebden Bridge and Mytholmroyd. Thats over 10 miles away

#225 Adeybull

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 01:39 PM

Brighouse - which I specifically mentioned - is on the Calder...

 

And its about 5 miles from Odsal.  Downhill all the way, the way valleys do.

 

And the family who sit in front of me at Odsal live in or near Brighouse.

 

As do a number of other Bulls fans I know, including several who were on the Bullbuilder board.

 

And places like Cleackheaton are on rivers that flow down into the Calder. Indeed, one of the sources of that river, is just over the back of the stadium.  Rivers flow down valleys?

 

So, I don't understand your point.



#226 Lounge Room Lizard

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 01:44 PM

You said Odsal overlooks the Calder Valley. I was pointing out that the Calder Valley is a difference place to where you think it is. Brighouse is on the Calder, but its not and never has been part of the Calder Valley. As I said the Calder Valley is in another area west of Halifax which features Hebden Bridge, Todmorden etc

#227 Adeybull

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 01:56 PM

The Calder Valley is the valley that the Calder runs through.  It starts up above Todmorden, and peters out around Wakefield.

 

The Aire valley is the valley that the Aire runs through.  It starts below Malham Tarn and peters out after Leeds.

 

The Wharfe Valley is the valley that the Wharfe runs through.  It starts up in the Dales, and peters out somewhere well East of Otley.

 

They are all quite long rivers.  And therefore long valleys.

 

I would have thought it was perfectly clear what I was referring to; and, in particular, why I was emphasising that much of the Bulls hinterland is on the Calder side of the watershed as opposed to the Aire side.  I can't see any merit in trying to be clever, personally, but I guess each to his own.


Edited by Adeybull, 16 April 2013 - 01:57 PM.


#228 The Parksider

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 01:59 PM

What I will say is that the club will always survive, even in the lower divisions. (Which I think are better anyway as every season in the lower leagues I really thought at the start of every season we had a chance of winning! I have never once thought that in "Super League")

I will never support a merged club in any shape or form as I support Hull Kingston Rovers, this is my team and it is my team for life. Even if we play on Tower Grange with Dockers.

Very fine and loyal sentiments sir.

I don't think there's any expectation (nor should there be in a free world) that anyone should switch to Superleague although less staunch fans than yourself may well do.

The question is if HKR ended their Superleague days would the next few generations of fans from east hull refuse to go watch Hull because their grandad was a Rovers fan?

#229 The Parksider

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 02:03 PM

You said Odsal overlooks the Calder Valley. I was pointing out that the Calder Valley is a difference place to where you think it is. Brighouse is on the Calder, but its not and never has been part of the Calder Valley. As I said the Calder Valley is in another area west of Halifax which features Hebden Bridge, Todmorden etc

Does this change the fact that from Odsal top I can either drive through Shelf and down to the Shay or go along the Fartown road to Huddersfield??

Great in the days of local rivalries fuelling a semi pro game.

Not so good when the area doesn't throw up a thriving SL club.

#230 keighley

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 02:06 PM

That's a very interesting analysis thank you Adeybull. At the height of Courarmania Keighley averaged 4,781 fans. Sadly the business was heavily in debt.

Ironic that isn't it that at the height of their attraction as a club they were at the financial depths.

I don't know where these fans came from but I guess many were from keighley, dormant supporters willing to follow their local side on condition that local side is winning games heading for Superleague, and that the local side gets in Superleague and competes.

But 5,000 fans wasn't enough to pay the bills just as it won't pay the bills at Salford, nor will 6,000 pay the bills at Widnes and 7,000 won't pay the bills at Fartown, Cas or HKR.

The reality may well be most Keighley born and bred people will watch keighley in SL but not Bradford. I'm sure that thousands of HKR fans will watch HKR in Superleague but never Hull. These local rivalries were great for the old semi pro game but they work against us now.

Will these rivalries ever subside? They have in Leeds, and IMHO people in south Leeds attend Headingley in numbers.

 

Well, you have completely changed tack from the Bulls supposed support in Keighley to the failures of the Cougars. two completely different subjects.

 

Since you have steered the thread there and  I will once again give a synopsis of the Cougars demise and destruction.

 

There are two facets to this.

 

1. Keighley embarked on a risky strategy of risking all for the ultimate prize and rewards associated with it of promotion to SL. If it failed they would have paid the price that they did, bankruptcy and almost extinction.

 

The sad part of it is that this strategy suceeded and they won their promotion off the field but were denied it off the field by two sets of goal post moving by the SL cabal, who wanted no part of them. The first was the ground requirements and the second was the abolition of p and r halfway through the season ( THATS HALFWAY THROUGH ) when the expectation and promise at the beginning of the season was that p and r was in place.

 

2. The second part of this is that once promotion was denied ( even though it was re instated once they got rid of Keighley) was that the loss of Sky money, loss of revenue from increased crowds from SL fixtures and the wirthdrawal of rumoured investors all combined to create the conditions whereby the risky outcome of failing to win promotion came to pass.

 

  To return to the subject of the thread, namely the catchment areas and geographical proximity of teams being an impediment to progress.

 

Keighley, as you say were averaging 4,700 in the second tier. They would have increased that number in SL and further marketing ( and don't forget they were masters of marketing) would have extended their reach to the hinterlands to the north of Keighley up the aire valley.

 

Now all those spectators, bar the 700 hardy souls who still support the Cougars, have been lost to RL. They have not transferred their allegiance to the Bulls, trust me on that.

 

This was the price the wider game in general and the Cougars paid in particular paid for the lack of ambition and goal post moving excercises of the ruling initial SL cabal.

 

  The 10,000 average for survival in SL is a bridge too far for most of the clubs and is tilting at windmills. The league needs to be restructured to allow survival in the 7,000 range. The elite few who do achieve the holy grail of 10,000 can contribute to a revenue sharing scheme if they can't find anything to spend their money on.

 

Such a restructuring would eliminate the proximity problem for the most part and would allow more clubs to compete in SL from the lower tiers and help diversify the SL product, something that is needed to prevent stagnation and regression. A successful Keighley or Barrow or Doncaster or Sheffield would improve the reach and attractiveness of the league immeasureably.



#231 Lounge Room Lizard

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 02:08 PM

Does this change the fact that from Odsal top I can either drive through Shelf and down to the Shay or go along the Fartown road to Huddersfield??

Great in the days of local rivalries fuelling a semi pro game.

Not so good when the area doesn't throw up a thriving SL club.

Ah yes Bradford that thriving SL club that had to have the RFL save its ###### and con people into giving them money. The club that went bust in the 60s and had to beg to get players. Sadly there are very few SL clubs that thrive and often SL clubs are living way beyond their means as history has shown us.

#232 Lounge Room Lizard

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 02:12 PM

The Calder Valley is the valley that the Calder runs through.  It starts up above Todmorden, and peters out around Wakefield.
 
The Aire valley is the valley that the Aire runs through.  It starts below Malham Tarn and peters out after Leeds.
 
The Wharfe Valley is the valley that the Wharfe runs through.  It starts up in the Dales, and peters out somewhere well East of Otley.
 
They are all quite long rivers.  And therefore long valleys.
 
I would have thought it was perfectly clear what I was referring to; and, in particular, why I was emphasising that much of the Bulls hinterland is on the Calder side of the watershed as opposed to the Aire side.  I can't see any merit in trying to be clever, personally, but I guess each to his own.

If you think that Brighouse is in the Calder Valley fine. But the Calder Valley is known locally as an area where the Calder flows from Todmorden down to Mytholmroyd on to Sowerby Bridge. I know nobody who has reffered to Brighouse as being part of the Calder Valley. The Calder is a longish river but that doesnt mean the whole strecth is known as the Calder Valley.

#233 Adeybull

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 02:14 PM

Ever noticed that when some folk make a prat of themsleves, they resort to derision and general unpleasantness?



#234 The Parksider

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 02:14 PM

To return to the subject of the thread....
 
1. Keighley, as you say were averaging 4,700 in the second tier. Now all those spectators, bar the 700 hardy souls who still support the Cougars, have been lost to RL. They have not transferred their allegiance to the Bulls, trust me on that.

2. The 10,000 average for survival in SL is a bridge too far for most of the clubs and is tilting at windmills. The league needs to be restructured to allow survival in the 7,000 range. The elite few who do achieve the holy grail of 10,000 can contribute to a revenue sharing scheme if they can't find anything to spend their money on.
 
3. A successful Keighley or Barrow or Doncaster or Sheffield would improve the reach and attractiveness of the league immeasureably.

1. I trust you, but you trust me that it's no good having any fans if you run at a loss.

2. Then my question of deluded pom is one you may care to answer. How does taking £4,000,000 of wages out of Superleague by dropping the cap drastically benefit Superleague.

3. Please explain how?

Please especially explain how Keighley, Barrow Sheffield or Doncaster will get 7,000 crowds???

#235 Adeybull

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 02:15 PM

If you think that Brighouse is in the Calder Valley fine. But the Calder Valley is known locally as an area where the Calder flows from Todmorden down to Mytholmroyd on to Sowerby Bridge. I know nobody who has reffered to Brighouse as being part of the Calder Valley. The Calder is a longish river but that doesnt mean the whole strecth is known as the Calder Valley.

 

So what IS the valley that the river Calder flows through called generically then?  The Thames valley?



#236 The Parksider

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 02:16 PM

Ah yes Bradford that thriving SL club that had to have the RFL save its ###### and con people into giving them money. The club that went bust in the 60s and had to beg to get players. Sadly there are very few SL clubs that thrive and often SL clubs are living way beyond their means as history has shown us.

So should Bradford be in Superleague then?

#237 Ackroman

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 02:28 PM

If you think that Brighouse is in the Calder Valley fine. But the Calder Valley is known locally as an area where the Calder flows from Todmorden down to Mytholmroyd on to Sowerby Bridge. I know nobody who has reffered to Brighouse as being part of the Calder Valley. The Calder is a longish river but that doesnt mean the whole strecth is known as the Calder Valley.

The Calder Valley has very distinctive geography all the way to Wakefield so what else would you call it? The Airedale estate in Castleford bears no resemblance to Malham but it is still in Airedale.

#238 Adeybull

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 02:59 PM

http://en.wikipedia....t_constituency)

 

Strangely enough, the residents of places like Brighouse live in a parliamentary constituency called "Calder Valley".

 

That will be a different river Calder, then?



#239 Lounge Room Lizard

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 03:19 PM

Correct but if you said "Calder Valley in the Halifax area, then most, if not all would think you was talking about The Calder Valley between Todmorden and Mytholmroyd. Brighouse didnt used to be in the "Calder Valley" and think it was sometime in the 80s it got brought in. However you are correct in that it is in the Calder Valley constituency. A couple of friends who I played Rugby with are from the Brighouse/Hipperholme area and they would never say that Brighouse is in the Calder Valley as such. More that Brighouse is a town that has the River Calder going through it.

#240 Adeybull

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 03:25 PM

So, let me see if i've finally got this right?

 

We are talking about places in the Calder valley, that are in Calder Valley, but are not in The Calder Valley despite being in the valley with the Calder running through it?

 

Is that different to Calderdale?






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