Jump to content


Rugby League World Issue 400 - Out Now!

RUGBY LEAGUE WORLD MAGAZINE - ISSUE 400 - OUT NOW!
84 pages, 38 years of history from Open Rugby to the present day.
Click here for the digital edition to read online via smartphone, tablet and desktop devices including iPhone, iPad, Android & Kindle HD.
Click here to order a copy for delivery by post. Annual subscriptions also available worldwide.
Find out what's inside Issue 400
/ View a Gallery of all 400 covers / WH Smith Branches stocking Issue 400
Read Jamie Jones-Buchanan's Top 5 RLW Interviews including Marwan Koukash, Lee Briers, Gareth Thomas, Steve Ganson & Matt King OBE


League Express

Podcast

Photo
* - - - - 1 votes

RIP Hull KR?


  • Please log in to reply
282 replies to this topic

#261 keighley

keighley
  • Coach
  • 4,832 posts

Posted 17 April 2013 - 03:20 PM

:D You two loved it really. Now play nicely or I'll slipper your legs again!

 

Nah, seriously though, too often on here serious issues or talking points become petty point scoring pedantry between posters IMO.

 

It's just that people like Parksider who think they are right all the time are particularly annoying to those of us who know we are.



#262 deluded pom?

deluded pom?
  • Coach
  • 8,547 posts

Posted 20 April 2013 - 09:31 AM

I don't normally read the "On this Day" article in RLE but the one on April 8th caught my eye as it was about the proposed Super League in 1995. It states that originally there would be fourteen SL teams comprising of six merged clubs, London, Paris, Toulouse and five stand alone clubs. The stand alone clubs comprised Wigan, Leeds, St Helens, Bradford Northern and (fanfare) Halifax. I wonder what Mo saw in Halifax that Parky can't?


rldfsignature.jpg


#263 The Parksider

The Parksider
  • Coach
  • 16,861 posts

Posted 20 April 2013 - 10:56 AM

I don't normally read the "On this Day" article in RLE but the one on April 8th caught my eye as it was about the proposed Super League in 1995. It states that originally there would be fourteen SL teams comprising of six merged clubs, London, Paris, Toulouse and five stand alone clubs. The stand alone clubs comprised Wigan, Leeds, St Helens, Bradford Northern and (fanfare) Halifax. I wonder what Mo saw in Halifax that Parky can't?

Interestingly he didn't even include Huddersfield.

Given that in the end Halifax and Bradford collapsed financially and Davey's lamenting Fartown can't get a crowd maybe Mo should have put the three together as Bradhuddersfax like he did with Calder.

But as this won't happen in the end Bradford may like Wakefield be the only ones in the 10 club SL1.

That the RFL bought the ground and big SL clubs rallied to Bulls cause I suspect (hey I dunno just my humble opinion) this may be the end game.

#264 deluded pom?

deluded pom?
  • Coach
  • 8,547 posts

Posted 20 April 2013 - 06:06 PM

But you keep telling us that Mo knew what he was talking about and you also tell us that there's no place in SL for Fax'. Mo obviously thought differently.

rldfsignature.jpg


#265 jpmc

jpmc
  • Coach
  • 479 posts

Posted 20 April 2013 - 10:37 PM

Leeds/ bradford merge,in the long term interests of the sport ,why is that a problem?

#266 The Parksider

The Parksider
  • Coach
  • 16,861 posts

Posted 21 April 2013 - 08:22 AM

But you keep telling us that Mo knew what he was talking about and you also tell us that there's no place in SL for Fax'. Mo obviously thought differently.

Mo said there weren't enough fans, quality players and money men in the game for it to professionalise successfully.

He wanted the clubs to pare down to less in number and bigger in size.

They didn't mainly because the diehard fans who were probably a noisy minority would not even discuss it and as such the clubs fight each other for resources and one clubs success is another clubs downfall.

Currently there's rumours Koukash/Noble will try to take Paterson and Dobson off HKR. That's an example of a lack of quality players. If Salford start winning fans will come back but if someone else starts losing fans will melt away.

Mo was right in what he said and it has clearly IMHO come to pass. Seventeen years on and Superleague remains a mess.

After Mo proposed his club structure it didn't happen, and halifax went on to fail badly seven years on.

I think the idea that because Mo thought Halifax would make a go of it and they didn't doesn't prove anything other than on Halifax he thought wrong.

It doesn't discredit his overall analysis, and it doesn't affect my humble opinion that Halifax aren't big enough a club to stand alone and succeed in Superleague from their own resources. They eventually showed they didn't have money by 2003 they showed it again when the applied for SL last, their crowds have never got above a level that could turn a profit and currently only a handful of Halifax lads play SL regularly.

Yes Mo thought different but didn't have a crystal ball, so what's your point?

#267 deluded pom?

deluded pom?
  • Coach
  • 8,547 posts

Posted 21 April 2013 - 09:54 AM


It doesn't discredit his overall analysis, and it doesn't affect my humble opinion that Halifax aren't big enough a club to stand alone and succeed in Superleague from their own resources. They eventually showed they didn't have money by 2003 they showed it again when the applied for SL last, their crowds have never got above a level that could turn a profit and currently only a handful of Halifax lads play SL regularly.

Yes Mo thought different but didn't have a crystal ball, so what's your point?

Who does have money? A handful, no more, no less. I thought Mo was the be all and end all of RL oracles. You seem to rate him very highly on that score but simply dismiss it when he's proven wrong. You still haven't told me why Bradford and Leeds shouldn't merge as obviously both are chasing the same fans and players. Halifax didn't have money = not good enough. Bradford had big crowds but hit money problems and now run conservatively with falling crowds = carry on Bradford. I just don't see your logic of, don't have money now, never will have money. As I said in a previous post, who knows what would have happened had Peter Deakin pitched up at Halifax instead of Bradford?


rldfsignature.jpg


#268 Padge

Padge
  • Coach
  • 17,921 posts

Posted 21 April 2013 - 10:45 AM

That is the truth, but also true is the fact that many teams have upped their attendances as i quoted and it is also true that, given the right circumstances they can up them further. As we know Halifax have previous convictions in the 7,000 range, Barrow have the Furness peninsula to themselves and with a new ground,on field success, and investment, and the fact that the shipyards still provide decent employment, I see no reason why they could not up their attendances.

 

Sheffield is a work in progress, but seem to have cracked to 1200 barrier recently and with further success, a new stadium and the continued decline of the Sheffield soccer teams, who knows.. Featherstone have worked wonders so far from their CC1 days. The truth is I just don't know but equally neither do you. there are other examples but I don't want to go on too long.

 

It seems to me though that tere are many positive looking stories whereby attendances are slowly inching up as opposed to the odd disaster as at the Broncos. I am an optomist but not I hope a cockeyed one. You should try it sometime.

 

You and I are at odds on many points and both seem to be stubborn Yorkshireman with a good knowldgw of the game at out disposal and the cillision in arguments is inevitable. Poison,. well that's a strong word. Monopolising of threads, well i guess we could both plead guilty to that but it's up to the others to knock us off our perch with their arguments and points of view.

 

In my opinion we provoke a wide range of views, usually opposing, on a range of RL issues and that, to me, is what this board is about.

 

If neither of us defended out corner then one view would prevail by default and the points made would be weaker for it.

Attendances, increases and decrease, have to be taken relatively to the overall average at the time, you quote Wigan at 4,000 to 15,000, I presume you mean Wigan at 4,505 in 78/79 when the first division averaged 4,128.


Edited by Padge, 21 April 2013 - 10:49 AM.


Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com
Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007
Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.


#269 DeadShotKeen

DeadShotKeen
  • Coach
  • 1,230 posts

Posted 21 April 2013 - 11:23 AM

Fax was surely nothing more than a nod to recent history. They won the league in 89 I think? It would obviously have been a mistake and they would have been replaced or perhaps Davy would have been successful with a joint Hudds/Halifax proposal, which I would actually like to see going forward.

A bit of tinkering about the edges of Mo's proposal a few years in doesn't entirely discredit it. This was really the bigger problem than the proposal itself - it was drawn up and rubber-stamped too hurriedly. With patience and better fan involvement it could have been fabulous and its best aspects should still be implemented.

#270 keighley

keighley
  • Coach
  • 4,832 posts

Posted 21 April 2013 - 12:09 PM

Mo said there weren't enough fans, quality players and money men in the game for it to professionalise successfully.

He wanted the clubs to pare down to less in number and bigger in size.

They didn't mainly because the diehard fans who were probably a noisy minority would not even discuss it and as such the clubs fight each other for resources and one clubs success is another clubs downfall.

Currently there's rumours Koukash/Noble will try to take Paterson and Dobson off HKR. That's an example of a lack of quality players. If Salford start winning fans will come back but if someone else starts losing fans will melt away.

Mo was right in what he said and it has clearly IMHO come to pass. Seventeen years on and Superleague remains a mess.

After Mo proposed his club structure it didn't happen, and halifax went on to fail badly seven years on.

I think the idea that because Mo thought Halifax would make a go of it and they didn't doesn't prove anything other than on Halifax he thought wrong.

It doesn't discredit his overall analysis, and it doesn't affect my humble opinion that Halifax aren't big enough a club to stand alone and succeed in Superleague from their own resources. They eventually showed they didn't have money by 2003 they showed it again when the applied for SL last, their crowds have never got above a level that could turn a profit and currently only a handful of Halifax lads play SL regularly.

Yes Mo thought different but didn't have a crystal ball, so what's your point?

 

And with this assinine DR system there will be even less juniors produced to a professional level in the future.



#271 keighley

keighley
  • Coach
  • 4,832 posts

Posted 21 April 2013 - 12:12 PM

Attendances, increases and decrease, have to be taken relatively to the overall average at the time, you quote Wigan at 4,000 to 15,000, I presume you mean Wigan at 4,505 in 78/79 when the first division averaged 4,128.

 

I mean Wigan in the second division, whenever that was.



#272 The Parksider

The Parksider
  • Coach
  • 16,861 posts

Posted 21 April 2013 - 12:53 PM

And with this assinine DR system there will be even less juniors produced to a professional level in the future.

The DR system doesn't produce juniors the amateur game does and it produces the most where Sl clubs are subccessful, but bend your argument to champion the old days and ways.

#273 The Parksider

The Parksider
  • Coach
  • 16,861 posts

Posted 21 April 2013 - 12:55 PM

Who does have money? A handful, no more, no less. I thought Mo was the be all and end all of RL oracles. You seem to rate him very highly on that score but simply dismiss it when he's proven wrong. You still haven't told me why Bradford and Leeds shouldn't merge as obviously both are chasing the same fans and players. Halifax didn't have money = not good enough. Bradford had big crowds but hit money problems and now run conservatively with falling crowds = carry on Bradford. I just don't see your logic of, don't have money now, never will have money. As I said in a previous post, who knows what would have happened had Peter Deakin pitched up at Halifax instead of Bradford?

Mo had it right about resources. That's all I have ever said.

Leeds and bradford have proved they can be big Superleague clubs.

Entierly up to you to believe that on the showings of the two clubs, Halifax and Bradford, over the last 17 years halifax would be the better bet.

Just justify it please?

#274 deluded pom?

deluded pom?
  • Coach
  • 8,547 posts

Posted 21 April 2013 - 01:07 PM

Are Salford a better bet than Bradford at this moment in time?


rldfsignature.jpg


#275 keighley

keighley
  • Coach
  • 4,832 posts

Posted 21 April 2013 - 01:20 PM

The DR system doesn't produce juniors the amateur game does and it produces the most where Sl clubs are subccessful, but bend your argument to champion the old days and ways.

 What part of " At a professional level" didn't you understand ?



#276 The Parksider

The Parksider
  • Coach
  • 16,861 posts

Posted 22 April 2013 - 05:01 AM

Are Salford a better bet than Bradford at this moment in time?

At this moment in time Salford have a rich man at the helm who apparently finds money no object.

Which would be better, would Workington, York, Rochdale, Keighley and Swinton run by multi-millionaires be better bets for SL than Hull, Leeds, Bradford, Wakefield and Wigan run by very good businessmen.

The multi-millionaires could buy all the best players off the SL clubs and take their places in SL.

Good or bad for the game?

#277 a.n Other

a.n Other
  • Coach
  • 1,546 posts

Posted 22 April 2013 - 07:00 AM

Fax was surely nothing more than a nod to recent history. They won the league in 89 I think? It would obviously have been a mistake and they would have been replaced or perhaps Davy would have been successful with a joint Hudds/Halifax proposal

Was it ? At the time of the SL being formed fax were constantly in the top 6 teams, had crowds on par with all apart from Wigan and Leeds.

It was 86 that they won the Championship, in 87 the won the Challenge Cup, returned to the final in 1988, got to the Regal Trophy final in 1990. And if you add to the fact that they had Tony Gartland owning the club who at the time was one of britains richest men, why wouldn't they have been included?

#278 The Parksider

The Parksider
  • Coach
  • 16,861 posts

Posted 22 April 2013 - 07:46 AM

Was it ? At the time of the SL being formed fax were constantly in the top 6 teams, had crowds on par with all apart from Wigan and Leeds.

It was 86 that they won the Championship, in 87 the won the Challenge Cup, returned to the final in 1988, got to the Regal Trophy final in 1990. And if you add to the fact that they had Tony Gartland owning the club who at the time was one of britains richest men, why wouldn't they have been included?

What happened to Mr. Gartland Mr. Other??

#279 a.n Other

a.n Other
  • Coach
  • 1,546 posts

Posted 22 April 2013 - 07:56 AM


What happened to Mr. Gartland Mr. Other??


Seemed to stop investing money around the same time as the Bosman rule came in and the start of SL. Still has a executive box at Fax if I recall correctly. No idea why he stopped bank rolling them, there has been a couple of rumours, one was the fans reaction to speculation of a merger with Bradford, and another was due to family bereavement.

#280 The Parksider

The Parksider
  • Coach
  • 16,861 posts

Posted 22 April 2013 - 09:06 AM

Seemed to stop investing money around the same time as the Bosman rule came in and the start of SL. Still has a executive box at Fax if I recall correctly. No idea why he stopped bank rolling them, there has been a couple of rumours, one was the fans reaction to speculation of a merger with Bradford, and another was due to family bereavement.

Thanks very much for this.

Did Mr. Gartland speculate on that propose merger?

i.e. did he favour this?




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users