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RIP Hull KR?


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#101 RidingPie

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 04:12 PM

No I'm asking why you think it didnt get implemented?



You originally asked why framing the future didn't work, not why it wasn't implemented!

Anyway small minded self interest from the smaller clubs is the answer to you amended question. If the clubs administrators had all tried to sell it as an opportunity things could have been very different.

#102 Ant

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 04:20 PM

So it wasn't the bigger clubs who's situation didn't fit into the framework either - due to dilapitaded grounds and poor youth programmes?

#103 RidingPie

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 04:23 PM

Nope! It was mostly down to the small mindedness. Had their been real threat of relegation due to stadium criteria the teams would have jumped in to line soon enough.

#104 Ant

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 04:36 PM

I agree to an extent
But when Leeds, Saints, Wire and Bradford also had shockingly poor grounds the game didn't have a leg to stand on

Try it now and it's a different kettle of fish

Framing the future failed because only a couple of clubs had grounds fit for purpose at the time

#105 The Parksider

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 05:04 PM

Been there done that
It led to Clubs going bust in an effort to keep up or gain success - up to and including Bradford Bulls

Maybe they shouldn't have been allowed back into Superleague as a newco? Their demise after all would have benefited Huddersfield greaty, apparently

Well do you think it would help you if you were the only SL ticket in the area, and if some of those young Bradford lads were in your team.

Davey moved quickly for that.....

#106 Ant

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 05:07 PM

I'm sure he did, and given the history of the game is that any surprise?

#107 goldcoaster

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 07:35 PM

IF HKR & Cas went I'd expect Hull and Wakey to do well on the back of that.Wouldn't you?


I agree. I think it may be the way forward. If SL is to contract to 12 teams, these two are the most likely to go.

Wakey and Hull both have the potential to challenge the Leeds and Wigans of the world. By dropping their neighbours and allowing the local areas to focus on them, they could achieve these goals (thus improving SL as a whole).
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#108 red dwarf

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 08:41 PM

I agree. I think it may be the way forward. If SL is to contract to 12 teams, these two are the most likely to go.

Wakey and Hull both have the potential to challenge the Leeds and Wigans of the world. By dropping their neighbours and allowing the local areas to focus on them, they could achieve these goals (thus improving SL as a whole).

 

So you are suggesting that Hull had much bigger crowds when HKR were in the NL s ?



#109 Just to be clear

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 08:52 PM

Hull were building to 13,000 crowds when Rovers came along

 

Just to be clear, no they weren't.

 

Average attendance at the KC Stadium before Hull KR joined Super League:

 

 

2003 - 11,598
2004 - 11,458
2005 - 10,639
2006 - 10,866
 
Average attendance at the KC Stadium since Hull KR joined Super League and EXCLUDING Hull derbies:
 
2007 - 13,079
2008 - 12,778
2009 - 12,217
2010 - 13,202
2011 - 11,377
2012 - 11,294


#110 red dwarf

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 09:02 PM

Just to be clear, no they weren't.

 

Average attendance at the KC Stadium before Hull KR joined Super League:

 

 

2003 - 11,598
2004 - 11,458
2005 - 10,639
2006 - 10,866
 
Average attendance at the KC Stadium since Hull KR joined Super League and EXCLUDING Hull derbies:
 
2007 - 13,079
2008 - 12,778
2009 - 12,217
2010 - 13,202
2011 - 11,377
2012 - 11,294
 

So essentially HKR s promotion improved FC s attendances , or at least it is concievable they contributed to it ?


#111 The Parksider

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 06:16 AM

Just to be clear, no they weren't.
 
Average attendance at the KC Stadium before Hull KR joined Super League:
 
 
2003 - 11,598
2004 - 11,458
2005 - 10,639
2006 - 10,866
 
Average attendance at the KC Stadium since Hull KR joined Super League and EXCLUDING Hull derbies:
 
2007 - 13,079
2008 - 12,778
2009 - 12,217
2010 - 13,202
2011 - 11,377
2012 - 11,294

Your not (or red dwarf is not, I don't know due to the vagaries of the board posting problems)being clear at all here, and the idea HKR's promotion had fans thinking I must go and watch Hull FC.....

"So essentially HKR s promotion improved FC s attendances , or at least it is concievable they contributed to it ?"

which others have concluded, is an astonishing conclusion to some very basic stats and facts.

Hull's crowds had built up steadily from their 5741 in 1998 due to promotion and their team improving, then the switch to the KC really had the fans going, they then won the cup and they then went on in 2006 to be runners up in the league and went to Old Trafford for the 2007 grand final.

Forgive me if my argument is somehow "contrived" but I always thought getting to the top of the game, getting to finals and actually winning things was and remains the biggest catalyst for fan growth?

If not can people please be clear what is??

Because if the revival of an old rival is what the fans actually want then Hetherington had better set about getting Hunslet promoted to Superleague. Featherstone had best push for Cas to still be around when they get promoted, because local rivalry seemingly comes way before success as a way to build a big regular crowd.

Hulls 2007 opener was against Catalans who bring few fans (12700) and they they were next at home to Wakefield (13,229) games played before they took on Rovers. I can't swallow the idea that the additional Hull fans were all turning up to these games because HKR had now arrived on the scene.

How does that work??

And if HKR being in SL boosts Hulls crowds why did they then fall away and why now that they have played Catalans again only in this recent case just manage to creep over the 10,000?

Is it because since Hudgell has announced major problems at HKR HullFC fans have decided they aren't that interested in watching Rugby League any more.

Before the childish Hull bashing accusations start this is about how clubs support grows, and how clubs support can be limited in growth if another club nearby is chasing the same new fans. It could be the same principle as to how could a promoted Fev pull fans from Pontefract if Cas up the road were rejuvinated, and Wakefield got Newmarket.

Or how would Leigh's crowds go in SL if people in and in centres of population around the town have gravitated to Wigan over the years? Or where a Halifax crowd will come from if Bulls and fartown continue to do well.

Edited by The Parksider, 10 April 2013 - 06:30 AM.


#112 a.n Other

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 08:30 AM

me if my argument is could be the same principle as to how could a promoted Fev pull fans from Pontefract if Cas up the road were rejuvinated, and Wakefield got Newmarket.Or how would Leigh's crowds go in SL if people in and in centres of population around the town have gravitated to Wigan over the years? Or where a Halifax crowd will come from if Bulls and fartown continue to do well.


Halifax and the surrounding areas of Calderdale are more,than big enough to survive Bradford and Huddersfield "doing well", whether or not the club will ever be able to get the people interested in the club again is another matter.

#113 The Parksider

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 12:17 PM

Halifax and the surrounding areas of Calderdale are more,than big enough to survive Bradford and Huddersfield "doing well", whether or not the club will ever be able to get the people interested in the club again is another matter.

Well Bradford and Huddersfield are doing well and Fax are down to what now?? 1500 crowds?

I'm not having a go as you will know by now.

If Halifax were in SL today and Bradford and Huddersfield were not I'd back them to do better than they ever did 1996-2003 if they had a clear run as the only SL ticket in the area.

But the best crowds Fax used to get in SL would be loss making ones today, and the Calderdale area clearly would not supply a competitive professional team today from it's amateur base.

To be a big SL club you'd need to be casting a wider net for fans and players.

#114 longboard

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 12:33 PM

The Calderdale area produces good RL players but Fax aren't able to benefit from the best ones owing to their current circumstances. In the past  they had players from neighbouring parts of Yorkshire, east Lancs and a generous springling of antipodeans though.

 

Michael Steele and the Halifax board do not want to endanger the future of the club by accumulating large debts, which is understandable given its history. It is clear that the club do not have enough brass to be a competitve Super League club currently and they have worked from a low base after their debt problems.



#115 a.n Other

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 02:00 PM

Well Bradford and Huddersfield are doing well and Fax are down to what now?? 1500 crowds?

I'm not having a go as you will know by now.

If Halifax were in SL today and Bradford and Huddersfield were not I'd back them to do better than they ever did 1996-2003 if they had a clear run as the only SL ticket in the area.

But the best crowds Fax used to get in SL would be loss making ones today, and the Calderdale area clearly would not supply a competitive professional team today from it's amateur base.

To be a big SL club you'd need to be casting a wider net for fans and players.

You missed my point. Calderdale's population is more than big enough for Fax to get good crowds from, regardless of Bradford and Huddersfield doing well. However , I don't think Fax have the capabity to attract new people to the Shay. Or so it would seem.

#116 zorquif

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 04:59 PM

To operate like the nfl, the rfl would have to set up a while academy system to provide players for a draft. In the nfl, the ncaa does that. Why would Wigan bother churning out players (which isn't free) of they couldn't keep them or even get any return? Also, if all Gate money was to be centrally collected, the rfl would have to do all the marketing. Why would wire bust a gasket for no more money than wakey get for doing nowt (fpr example). Finally, I think player wages would have to go up significantly. In the nfl you'll go and play for who you're told because you're set for life after one contract. I think a fair few lads would stick to the amateur game and earning the same doing summat else before they'd go to a club they don't want to go to.

#117 Ant

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 05:27 PM

I don't think any young aspiring player has a club they don't want to play for. They want a Super League contract. With anyone.

#118 zorquif

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 05:29 PM

Is that really true? Would an 18 year old wiganer go to catalan for 30k a year instead of playing amateur and making the same doing summat else?

#119 deluded pom?

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 05:34 PM

To operate like the nfl, the rfl would have to set up a while academy system to provide players for a draft. In the nfl, the ncaa does that. Why would Wigan bother churning out players (which isn't free) of they couldn't keep them or even get any return? Also, if all Gate money was to be centrally collected, the rfl would have to do all the marketing. Why would wire bust a gasket for no more money than wakey get for doing nowt (fpr example). Finally, I think player wages would have to go up significantly. In the nfl you'll go and play for who you're told because you're set for life after one contract. I think a fair few lads would stick to the amateur game and earning the same doing summat else before they'd go to a club they don't want to go to.

 

 

Wigan have produced plenty of good young kids and still let them go to other SL clubs for no financial return. It would be up to the RFL or the SLE to police the clubs so that the scenario you used i.e Warrington sitting back and doing nothing because Wakefield aren't doing anything either, doesn't occur. It wouldn't be difficult to see if a club was sitting back and taking money for nothing.


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#120 zorquif

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Posted 10 April 2013 - 05:34 PM

And to be honest, I think that is the least of the problems I mention




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