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Thatcher - Has passed away.


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#321 JohnM

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 10:20 AM

I thyink that's a bit glib and facile personally.

 

and it consigns som of churchill's rhetoric to the dustbin.

 

I don't think Padge should have said what he did.

 

But t the same time I didn't know there was an argument gong on. Nobody is going to changeanybody' opinion on this opic let's face it.

 L'Ange, I'm not so sure that opinions won't change. Although not free from blame myself, I have counted to ten before replying to some of the more "direct" comments on here. Time to think is much needed...at my age! :)



#322 Martyn Sadler

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 10:29 AM

I thyink that's a bit glib and facile personally.

 

and it consigns som of churchill's rhetoric to the dustbin.

 

I don't think Padge should have said what he did.

 

But t the same time I didn't know there was an argument gong on. Nobody is going to changeanybody' opinion on this opic let's face it.

 

I don't mind people having personal digs at each other, as long as they don't stray into offensive territory.

 

What I sometimes find comical is that people who make personal comments then object when they are themselves criticised personally.

 

Padge and Saintslass both seem pretty good at giving and taking.



#323 John Drake

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 10:29 AM

Nobody is going to changeanybody' opinion on this opic let's face it.

 

I think that pretty much sums up the thread.


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#324 Futtocks

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 10:40 AM


I think that pretty much sums up the thread.


I think that pretty much sums up the internet. :P

A mind is like a parachute. It doesn’t work if it isn’t open. Frank Zappa (1940 - 1993)


#325 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 10:42 AM

I don't mind people having personal digs at each other, as long as they don't stray into offensive territory.

 

What I sometimes find comical is that people who make personal comments then object when they are themselves criticised personally.

 

Padge and Saintslass both seem pretty good at giving and taking.

well 'saintslass' said that because of what Padge said he'd 'lost the argument', and you agreed.

But no matter.


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#326 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 10:44 AM

 L'Ange, I'm not so sure that opinions won't change. Although not free from blame myself, I have counted to ten before replying to some of the more "direct" comments on here. Time to think is much needed...at my age! :)

of course opinion can change

 

but in this instance they have a appeared not to.


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#327 Martyn Sadler

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 10:49 AM

well 'saintslass' said that because of what Padge said he'd 'lost the argument', and you agreed.

But no matter.

 

There's no contradiction there.

 

I don't mind people doing it, if they really want to, but by doing so they tend to lose the argument.



#328 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 10:50 AM

"what do you think to the idea of non union members hving to negotiat their own terms nd conditions?"

 

That's a complex issue in my opinion.  What good did it do for the miners when their leaders "negotiated" a wage rise out of Ted Heath?  In my experience , companies offer the terms and conditions that attract the people they want. 

 

Post Thatcher union reforms, I reckon the unions have done a better job for their members than ever before. They have moved from being an undemocratic force where some leaders in some unions sometimes  their members muscle to try to frustrate the will of Parliament.    They are now, it seems to me  much more pragmatic in their approach, looking wider and further than just the rate for the job, the length of the working week etc, helped in large part by an improvement in the quality of many managements compared with pre-Thatcher days.

like I said we got sick of pheasant for tea.

 

It meant that the miners didn't slide down the payscale, rather than mak them rich beyond the dreams of avarice.

 

There were many archaic practices in the way unions were structured. There was also incompetenbce and arrogance ftom management, and there were garbage products made on archaic equipment designed by complacent er designers.

 

As an aside the NUM's practices, had conformed to those desired by Thatcher since the 1920s. 


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#329 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 10:53 AM

There's no contradiction there.

 

I don't mind people doing it, if they really want to, but by doing so they tend to lose the argument.

there are people on here putting forward the same or similar 'arguments' to Padge, but haven't made comments like the one we are talking about. Does this mean they have 'lost' it by default? I don't think so,


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#330 Wolford6

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 10:56 AM

I'm happy to insult someone, if you think it will move the argument forward. B)


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#331 Severus

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 11:11 AM

I find it hard to see the logic in that position.
 
In my previous career, the terms and conditions were negotiated by trade unions, and the effect of it was that people who made widely different contributions to the university were on fixed pay scales. You had the people who brought money, prestige and research projects working alongside, and sometimes being paid less, than colleagues who would spend most of the day away from the place pursuing their own interests and taking advantage of the protection the unions gave them to avoid being accountable for their actions.
 
If the university had been forced to negotiate directly with its individual members of staff, those who fell into the former category would have earned far more than the unionised pay rates, while the latter would have earned less.
 
For an employer, as you suggested in a previous post, negotiating with a limited number of unions is much more convenient. But it can result in wages that are below what they would otherwise be if individuals had the right to negotiate their own contracts.

Fixed pay scales for academics is a good idea. Productivity in academia is often difficult to measure, it doesn't all come down to grant funding. However, those who do bring in money invariably become rewarded through readership and professorship positions.

Back on topic. One good thing about the celebrations of those who despised Thatcher and those who may not have been around but are still living with the effects of Thatcherism is that it may remind our current and future leaders that their policy decisions have long term repercussions and they have a duty to do what is best for the country in the longer term.
Fides invicta triumphat

#332 JohnM

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 11:50 AM

Fixed pay scales for academics is a good idea. Productivity in academia is often difficult to measure, it doesn't all come down to grant funding. However, those who do bring in money invariably become rewarded through readership and professorship positions.

Back on topic. One good thing about the celebrations of those who despised Thatcher and those who may not have been around but are still living with the effects of Thatcherism is that it may remind our current and future leaders that their policy decisions have long term repercussions and they have a duty to do what is best for the country in the longer term.

 which is exactly what she did, thank goodness. 

 

It might do both party leaders (and parties and MPs)  some good if they were to pursue their policies  with the same determination. They is still a huge gap between what they say they are going to do and what actually gets done. 



#333 Martyn Sadler

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 11:51 AM



Back on topic. One good thing about the celebrations of those who despised Thatcher and those who may not have been around but are still living with the effects of Thatcherism is that it may remind our current and future leaders that their policy decisions have long term repercussions and they have a duty to do what is best for the country in the longer term.

 

Actually Thatcher was the one politician who did think in the long term. She had a vision for Britain and she wanted to put it into practice. She used to drive her Cabinet colleagues round the bend by refusing to indulge in short-term gimmickry to keep her poll ratings high.

 

The younger people who are celebrating her death have little idea of what state the country was in by the time she came to power.

 

I see that even the students' union at the University of Melbourne has set aside a day to celebrate her death. It's hard to believe how daft a group of people can be.



#334 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 11:58 AM

which is exactly what she did, thank goodness.

It might do both party leaders (and parties and MPs) some good if they were to pursue their policies with the same determination. They is still a huge gap between what they say they are going to do and what actually gets done.


Aye
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#335 Severus

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 12:19 PM

Actually Thatcher was the one politician who did think in the long term. She had a vision for Britain and she wanted to put it into practice. She used to drive her Cabinet colleagues round the bend by refusing to indulge in short-term gimmickry to keep her poll ratings high.
 
The younger people who are celebrating her death have little idea of what state the country was in by the time she came to power.
 
I see that even the students' union at the University of Melbourne has set aside a day to celebrate her death. It's hard to believe how daft a group of people can be.

Once you privatise an industry it is very difficult to go back. That isn't forward thinking, that is screwing over the future generations.

Edit: perhaps this is the wrong thread for these sentiments. I haven't posted previously on this thread and have found these Thatcher threads to be most interesting and credit to TRL, John and Craig for managing this tricky subject. I admired Thatcher's strength and leadership and her achievements have been well documented. She was perhaps the only Prime Minister who I have lived under where you felt she was a true leader, one that you felt would go toe to toe with foreign leaders and give a good account of herself.

Edited by Severus, 11 April 2013 - 12:28 PM.

Fides invicta triumphat

#336 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 01:04 PM

Once you privatise an industry it is very difficult to go back. That isn't forward thinking, that is screwing over the future generations.

Edit: perhaps this is the wrong thread for these sentiments. I haven't posted previously on this thread and have found these Thatcher threads to be most interesting and credit to TRL, John and Craig for managing this tricky subject. I admired Thatcher's strength and leadership and her achievements have been well documented. She was perhaps the only Prime Minister who I have lived under where you felt she was a true leader, one that you felt would go toe to toe with foreign leaders and give a good account of herself.

The renationalised east coast main line was doing ok after privatisation ruined it now its being reprivatised

Not that nationalised industries work if they are badly run
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#337 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 01:19 PM

Actually Thatcher was the one politician who did think in the long term. She had a vision for Britain and she wanted to put it into practice. She used to drive her Cabinet colleagues round the bend by refusing to indulge in short-term gimmickry to keep her poll ratings high.

The younger people who are celebrating her death have little idea of what state the country was in by the time she came to power.

I see that even the students' union at the University of Melbourne has set aside a day to celebrate her death. It's hard to believe how daft a group of people can be.


How do you know what these 'younger people' or the students of Melbourne university think or know?

Are you suggesting that to know about or have a view on any event or issue from history you have to have been there!
That messed up the study of history from before the 20th century big time

By underestimating people do you think you destroy or weaken your own argument? What if these 'young people ' and students had been honouring mrs thatcher! Would that have made them knowledgeable just because they agreed with you?
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#338 Northern Sol

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 02:22 PM

How do you know what these 'younger people' or the students of Melbourne university think or know?

Are you suggesting that to know about or have a view on any event or issue from history you have to have been there!
That messed up the study of history from before the 20th century big time

By underestimating people do you think you destroy or weaken your own argument? What if these 'young people ' and students had been honouring mrs thatcher! Would that have made them knowledgeable just because they agreed with you?

No, but it would less distasteful.

 

As I said before I can understand some folk who suffered under Thatcher might find it difficult to follow the normal convention of not celebrating the death of another human but youngsters in Australia have no excuse for not being more objective even if they were experts on Thatcherism (unlikely).



#339 Northern Sol

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 02:29 PM

I was a member of the EETPU, a professional body in all but the name Union. I could be an electrician and practice my trade without being a member. I can't practice as a Lawyer etc. without belonging to a closed shop.

I am not implying anything about the affiliation politically about members of these closed shops that still exist, only that closed shops were different in Thatcher's eyes depending on who had the closed shop.

If she was against closed shops so much then she should have removed ALL closed shops.

As for SaintsLass, I just shake my head, to paraphrase, "I like the protection of a closed shop but I don't like closed shops". Your as principled as a ferule cat.

How often do the Law Society bring their members out on strike?

 

Now I wouldn't like that so I've never just a union.

 

I have belonged to various professional bodies that are no more than talking shops that have a monthly magazine with a jobs section.



#340 Northern Sol

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 02:33 PM

Sol, that's not striclty true. They do get involved in union type activities, including involvement in pay/monetary issues and representing their members' interests. They are more hybrid sorts of organisations than traditional, industrial, or craft type unions though.

Yes, but they can't force anyone to withdraw their labour. If you are in aunion and the vote "goes the wrong way", you might have to strike even if you don't want to. Fair enough if you have signed up to it but not if you had no choice in joining.






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