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Thatcher - Has passed away.


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#341 Martyn Sadler

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 02:49 PM

Once you privatise an industry it is very difficult to go back. That isn't forward thinking, that is screwing over the future generations.

Edit: perhaps this is the wrong thread for these sentiments. I haven't posted previously on this thread and have found these Thatcher threads to be most interesting and credit to TRL, John and Craig for managing this tricky subject. I admired Thatcher's strength and leadership and her achievements have been well documented. She was perhaps the only Prime Minister who I have lived under where you felt she was a true leader, one that you felt would go toe to toe with foreign leaders and give a good account of herself.

 

Privatising an industry is a long-term decision, which doesn't necessarily make it a good or bad decision of itself.



#342 Martyn Sadler

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 03:15 PM

What if these 'young people ' and students had been honouring mrs thatcher! Would that have made them knowledgeable just because they agreed with you?

 

Agreeing with me?

 

I don't agree with 'honouring' any politicians, but I do respect them unless and until they prove they are not worthy of respect.



#343 Matt J

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 03:24 PM

Details of her funeral - she's being cremated the final irony would be if the crematorium was coal fired


The lady is not for burning.

Cummins Out.


#344 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 03:45 PM

No, but it would less distasteful.

 

As I said before I can understand some folk who suffered under Thatcher might find it difficult to follow the normal convention of not celebrating the death of another human but youngsters in Australia have no excuse for not being more objective even if they were experts on Thatcherism (unlikely).

I find the venal. emetic hagiography, and the fact that I'll have to pay for her funeral  pantomime of  a funeral even more distasteful 

 

does this mean that people who didn't have the Thatcher experience first hand shouldn't mourn her passing? Plenty seem to be doing so.

 

Why should be people be 'experts', you can know enough without being an expert.

 

I didn't experience the 1926 general strike, but members of my family did, my grandfather who'd only been back from Belgium  8 years. Should I have remained emotionally inert when he and my grandmother, and my father who was 7 at the time told me about it?

 

I haven't felt celebratory about the death of Thatcher, my brother does though...the experience had a major long lasting effect on his emotional well being. But as every sycophantic skin crawling apologist eulogises and slavers over her, and estimates for the cost of her funeral go up-now £10 million from £8 million, the memories of those times reappear and become stronger and I become angry enough to empathise with the protestors and the celebrants more strongly. I said in a previous discussion before her death that when it came, I would raise a glass and reflect quietly on life under her rule. That ws sufficient, but only just.


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#345 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 03:50 PM

Agreeing with me?

 

I don't agree with 'honouring' any politicians, but I do respect them unless and until they prove they are not worthy of respect.

'worth' is a value judgement.

She maybe 'worthy' in your eyes, but not in others: which was my point.

 

I'm still a bit confused about your thoughts on having had to have experienced history to qualify to comment upon it.


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#346 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 03:52 PM

How often do the Law Society bring their members out on strike?

 

Now I wouldn't like that so I've never just a union.

 

I have belonged to various professional bodies that are no more than talking shops that have a monthly magazine with a jobs section.

how often have they had to.

I don't recall there being wholesale court house closures, or pay cuts and redundancies  for barristers.


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#347 JohnM

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 04:16 PM

see http://www.lawscot.o...to-justice--(1)

 

and http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21666224

 

but you are right. She never got to grips with the police, the lawyers and the doctors, so it's their turn now...and the don't like it up 'em, either. Still their leaders haven't tried to undermine a democratically elected government...yet...mainly cos the govt and opposition is stuffed with the buggers...and the Police Federation are having a go at the moment. in their own small way.



#348 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 04:29 PM

see http://www.lawscot.o...to-justice--(1)

 

and http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21666224

 

but you are right. She never got to grips with the police, the lawyers and the doctors, so it's their turn now...and the don't like it up 'em, either. Still their leaders haven't tried to undermine a democratically elected government...yet...mainly cos the govt and opposition is stuffed with the buggers...and the Police Federation are having a go at the moment. in their own small way.

 

 

see http://www.lawscot.o...to-justice--(1)

 

and http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-21666224

 

but you are right. She never got to grips with the police, the lawyers and the doctors, so it's their turn now...and the don't like it up 'em, either. Still their leaders haven't tried to undermine a democratically elected government...yet...mainly cos the govt and opposition is stuffed with the buggers...and the Police Federation are having a go at the moment. in their own small way.

well there was the 1918 and 1919 police strike

the reds under the bed debacle during wilson's time

the invergordon mutiny

 

but generally the police tend to be kept sweet, just as they were before and during the strike.


Edited by l'angelo mysterioso, 11 April 2013 - 04:32 PM.

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#349 Saintslass

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 05:43 PM

I said in a previous discussion before her death that when it came, I would raise a glass and reflect quietly on life under her rule. That ws sufficient, but only just.

If you didn't experience her 'rule' then how can you reflect upon it?  At best you are reflecting upon someone else's narrative of it, which is not the same thing at all.



#350 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 05:54 PM

If you didn't experience her 'rule' then how can you reflect upon it? At best you are reflecting upon someone else's narrative of it, which is not the same thing at all.

I hope you aren't a history teacher

Edit
Every year at eleven am on November the eleventh I stop what I'm doing and pause to reflect

I wasn't involved in world war 1 but my grandfather was

I wasn't involved in world war 2 but my father and my uncles were: at least one being traumatised by the experience for the rest of his life

This is because I wasn't born yet

I was a baby in the Korean War

My cousin led did tours in Northern Ireland

And there have been the Falklands, Iraqs one and two, Bosnia and Afghanistan since. None of which I was involved in

My minutes reflection on 11.11 means a lot to
Me

Am I not entitled to it? It would appear so according to your logic

Of course we are allowed to have emotions and opinions about events that we weren't directly or even indirectly involved with: we'd be nihilist and self serving otherwise

Edited by l'angelo mysterioso, 11 April 2013 - 06:11 PM.

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#351 Northern Sol

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 06:01 PM

how often have they had to.

I don't recall there being wholesale court house closures, or pay cuts and redundancies  for barristers.

It's nothing to do with whether they have had to. They don't have that power.



#352 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 06:03 PM

It's nothing to do with whether they have had to. They don't have that power.


I'm sure if the need arose something could be arranged
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#353 Bostik Bailey

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 06:37 PM

'worth' is a value judgement.
She maybe 'worthy' in your eyes, but not in others: which was my point.

I'm still a bit confused about your thoughts on having had to have experienced history to qualify to comment upon it.


Exactly, I suppose some people on here think that anybody who claims Hitler or Stalin were nasty pieces of work are wrong because they didn't experience these regimes.

#354 Saintslass

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 06:48 PM

I hope you aren't a history teacher

Edit
Every year at eleven am on November the eleventh I stop what I'm doing and pause to reflect

I wasn't involved in world war 1 but my grandfather was

I wasn't involved in world war 2 but my father and my uncles were: at least one being traumatised by the experience for the rest of his life

This is because I wasn't born yet

I was a baby in the Korean War

My cousin led did tours in Northern Ireland

And there have been the Falklands, Iraqs one and two, Bosnia and Afghanistan since. None of which I was involved in

My minutes reflection on 11.11 means a lot to
Me

Am I not entitled to it? It would appear so according to your logic

Of course we are allowed to have emotions and opinions about events that we weren't directly or even indirectly involved with: we'd be nihilist and self serving otherwise

Since you directly referred to 'life under her rule', which is an experience, when you actually hadn't experienced 'life under her rule' means you would only ever be reflecting upon someone else's narrative of life under her rule. 

 

In short, just as I have no idea what life was like in the second world war, because I wasn't alive then, you don't have any idea of what life was like under Margaret Thatcher, so why on earth you would raise a glass at her death I have no idea.  It's not only meaningless, since you had no direct experience of life when she was PM, but it's frankly odd.



#355 Saintslass

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 06:50 PM

Exactly, I suppose some people on here think that anybody who claims Hitler or Stalin were nasty pieces of work are wrong because they didn't experience these regimes.

But you are not claiming to be reflecting upon 'life under Hitler' or 'life under Stalin' are you?


Edited by Saintslass, 11 April 2013 - 06:50 PM.


#356 Bostik Bailey

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 07:00 PM

Since you directly referred to 'life under her rule', which is an experience, when you actually hadn't experienced 'life under her rule' means you would only ever be reflecting upon someone else's narrative of life under her rule.

In short, just as I have no idea what life was like in the second world war, because I wasn't alive then, you don't have any idea of what life was like under Margaret Thatcher, so why on earth you would raise a glass at her death I have no idea. It's not only meaningless, since you had no direct experience of life when she was PM, but it's frankly odd.


Yes but there are things like books that will provide narratives of any period of history. You can study these and make up your own mind as to the virtues of certain historical people.

Maybe if more people used this method to formulate their views rather than newspapers then we could get a bit if balance into the debate.


Oh for the record I started work at 16 in 1987, my family were always in good employment throughout the period in no way whatsoever did I or my family suffer under thatcher. But I still do not agree that her legacy was a good one.

I wasn't born under the Attle government but I am benefiting from the reforms that were introduced then ( as are you).

#357 Northern Sol

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 07:07 PM

I'm sure if the need arose something could be arranged

If the need was there then a trade union would be created.

 

Teachers have lots of trade unions, they also have a professional body.

 

One satisfied one perceived need and the other a completely different one.



#358 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 07:11 PM

Since you directly referred to 'life under her rule', which is an experience, when you actually hadn't experienced 'life under her rule' means you would only ever be reflecting upon someone else's narrative of life under her rule.

In short, just as I have no idea what life was like in the second world war, because I wasn't alive then, you don't have any idea of what life was like under Margaret Thatcher, so why on earth you would raise a glass at her death I have no idea. It's not only meaningless, since you had no direct experience of life when she was PM, but it's frankly odd.

I helped to raise five children through the thatcher years
Saw my brothers health ruined in the aftermath of the miners strike
Buried my father a year into his retirement from the pit he was 65
I qualified as a psychiatric nurse during the thatcher government's betrayal of the people I was caring for
I returned to teaching in the youth justice system during her rule as youth crime soared

I was lucky
I was never unemployed. I did tough jobs, but jobs I believed in
My family turned out ok

Don't tell me I don't know what it was like then
I didn't raise a glass to her death: it means nothing to me
I raised a glass to having survived what she had to dish out and to my memories of those times and what they did to people I cared about.

If you have no idea about what life was like in the Second World War or the First World War literally no idea then check out your local war memorial as a starting point and take it from there. Ask yourself what wars do to people

Are you saying that because I wasn't alive during World War One and World War Two then it should have no impact emotionally on me or other people?
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#359 Bostik Bailey

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 07:20 PM


Are you saying that because I wasn't alive during World War One and World War Two then it should have no impact emotionally on me or other people?


That's what the majority of her posts seam to be implying

#360 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 11 April 2013 - 07:32 PM

That's what the majority of her posts seam to be implying

as a former teacher I find it worrying that a member of my profession knows, understands, or feels nothing about such major events in fairly recent history events that shaped our lives to this day, events that are referred to visually when you walk the streets of almost any town, events that will one way or other have affected the lives of members of her family and community deeply only a generation or two ago
Such lack of curiosity and empathy from someone who's job it is to inspire those very things is very sad
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