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Thatcherism - The Political Debate Thread


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#1 John Drake

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 12:39 PM

This thread is to debate the politics of 'Thatcherism' not the person. Stay on topic, and follow the rules we have set out below.

 

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#2 steef

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 03:19 PM

You must be a glutton for punishment!
"surely they've got to try somthing different now, maybe the little chip over the top?2


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#3 West Country Eagle

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 03:22 PM

Good luck keeping this one on track!
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#4 John Drake

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 03:26 PM

It's going well so far. :D


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#5 walter sobchak

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 03:35 PM

A lot of the world problems today both economic and geopolitics can be laid at the feet of the former "leaders of the free world" Ronald Reagan and Margaret thatcher.

#6 westhuller

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 03:38 PM

You've got us all terrified John, they have similar posting restrictions in North Korea I believe.

#7 John Drake

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 03:43 PM

You've got us all terrified John, they have similar posting restrictions in North Korea I believe.

 

Count yourself lucky I don't have nuclear weapons at my disposal. :D

 

Seriously though, all I've done today is ask people to abide by the normal T&Cs, which most people manage all the time every day of the year on here without even thinking about it.


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#8 bedlam breakout

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 03:55 PM

 

You've got us all terrified John, they have similar posting restrictions in North Korea I believe.

 q. so whats it like living in north korea then mate?
a. oh well... i cant complain.
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#9 Wiltshire Rhino

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 03:56 PM

I'll start then. Swindon was an industrial town with most of the workforce building/repairing trains until British Rail closed it. Swindon was reinvented by Thatcherism and became the fastest growing Town in Europe. I know there are towns which "died" when their industries were taken away but Thatcherism kept Swindon from going under.

I know there are plenty of people on here who experienced the other side of Thatcherism but it worked in my home town.

Edited by Wiltshire Rhino, 08 April 2013 - 03:59 PM.


#10 bedlam breakout

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 04:00 PM

the greedy grabbing privatised money driven companys of today are all a result of thatcherism, she didnt die this morning because she couldnt afford to put the heating on did she?
the inside of a 3star halex table tennis ball smells much like you'd expect it to.

#11 Bostik Bailey

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 04:01 PM

A lot of the world problems today both economic and geopolitics can be laid at the feet of the former "leaders of the free world" Ronald Reagan and Margaret thatcher.


Excellent point

The housing boom bust bubble - MIRAS yeh great idea for very short term popularity gain

The welfare dependant generations - allow massive unemployment to happen thus creating a new generation of youngsters with no hope of earning a decent living wage.

Are but two if Thatcher's achievements - although to be fair she was aided and abetted by a labour movement of the time who were totally out of touch with the new affluent working society that emerged from the 70s

#12 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 04:58 PM

I thought she did what needed to be done at the time.  Had Thatcher not been our PM back then we would still be living in the 1970s, God help us.

But did it need to be done that way?

 

For suew

the UK's 'smokestack indutsrys' were obsolete.

workers and management were at each others thtoats

the products that those workers an managements were expected to produce were garbage.

 

But

Do you think the financial industry needed deregulating?

public transport turndinto a free for all.

Did we need section 28?

 

do yu think that creating post industrial Britain could hav been carrid out a little more constructively and less vindictively?

 

We certainly needed to retake the Falklands, but why did we need to in the first place. How did the planned defence cuts help this task?


Edited by l'angelo mysterioso, 08 April 2013 - 05:01 PM.

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#13 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 05:05 PM


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#14 tonyXIII

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 05:16 PM

Excellent point

The housing boom bust bubble - MIRAS yeh great idea for very short term popularity gain

The welfare dependant generations - allow massive unemployment to happen thus creating a new generation of youngsters with no hope of earning a decent living wage.

Are but two if Thatcher's achievements - although to be fair she was aided and abetted by a labour movement of the time who were totally out of touch with the new affluent working society that emerged from the 70s

 

Not sure why you've picked MIRAS, to be honest. Someone will probably correct me, but I thought there was tax relief on the interest paid on mortgages before MIRAS. All it did was alter the way it was paid - 'at source'. It was popular among almost everyone trying to buy a house.

 

Was this down to Thatcherism, or just the changing nature of global industry, for which we were unprepared.

 

Your third point is interesting. Thatcherism could not have happened if the Labour party had been able to offer a credible alternative.

 

What is most disappointing is that we have still not dealt with the fallout of Thatcherism in an effective way. We need new skills, new opportunities, a new outlook. I'm beggared if I know how to achieve that, though.


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#15 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 05:37 PM


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#16 Bostik Bailey

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 05:52 PM

Have any of these people who are gushing in her praise mentioned her friendship with Pinochet?

Edited by Bostik Bailey, 08 April 2013 - 05:53 PM.


#17 RidingPie

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 05:59 PM

Have any of these people who are gushing in her praise mentioned her friendship with Pinochet?


I remember one of the tabloids headlines (can't remember which one) "fascist dictator meets General Pinochet"

#18 fieldofclothofgold

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 06:13 PM

No comment I dont want to be banned
but you and I weve been through that and this is not our fate.
So let us so let us not talk falsely now.
The hour is getting late
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#19 Saintslass

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 07:37 PM

But did it need to be done that way?

 

For suew

the UK's 'smokestack indutsrys' were obsolete.

workers and management were at each others thtoats

the products that those workers an managements were expected to produce were garbage.

 

But

Do you think the financial industry needed deregulating?

public transport turndinto a free for all.

Did we need section 28?

 

do yu think that creating post industrial Britain could hav been carrid out a little more constructively and less vindictively?

 

We certainly needed to retake the Falklands, but why did we need to in the first place. How did the planned defence cuts help this task?

I don't know whether replying to your post will cross into the content of the politics thread but I'll respond anyway.

 

Given the choice, I am sure Thatcher would have preferred a negotiated way forward.  However, she came to power at a time when the unions were strong enough to depose a government (as they effectively did with Ted Heath's government).  No unelected body should have that degree of power in a democracy and she understood that quite clearly.  The minute she took on the might of the unions they fought back.  Most of the leaders, particularly the idiot in charge of the miners, were as absorbed in their own ideology as Thatcher was in hers and therefore it was a case of six of one, half a dozen of the other.  But it was important that democracy won, and it did.  While those who like to jump on the hate bandwagon persist in pointing out the destruction of communities (and St Helens was a strong mining and glassmaking community but is now former in both pretty much), what they don't like to consider is that during the present economic crisis, people have stayed in jobs because unions have negotiated with management and management have retained workers for when things get better: a situation that would never have happened in the 1970s.  There would have been all out war on the streets since 2008 had Thatcher not quashed the unions.  That is one of the very positive aspects of her legacy.

 

As for the financial industry being deregulated, you need to look to Gordon Brown for that one, which may upset you.  He was the one who deregulated the financial services industry.

 

So far as public transport is concerned, I understand why Thatcher considered privatisation.  Nationalised services and industries are invariably loss making and certainly in this country they were extremely inefficient and very costly to the tax payer.  However, both were controversial policies at the time.  Mind you, when I travel to London or the Lake District on Virgin Trains I wonder at the quality of service, food, the discount prices (if I time my booking right), time keeping, cleanliness and comfort of the whole experience.  It is so, so far ahead of anything I experienced when British Rail was in operation that all my initial doubts about privatising the rail network have long since vanished!  You really had to be there to know just how bloody awful British Rail was!  The buses are slightly different as their privatisation had a direct impact on outlying communities and elderly people who relied heavily upon them.  There was also a sharp spike in prices.  Personally, I haven't seen any particular improvement in the bus services since privatisation.  I may even think they have worsened.

 

Section 28 was created as a direct result of predominant public feeling at the time, just as its repeal came as a result of predominant public feeling at the time. 

 

The Falkland Islanders identified as British.  They still do.  I would hope the British government would rescue/protect me from an invader because I also identify as British (well, English these days).  Why should we not rescue the British Falkland Islanders just because they are thousands of miles away?  Thatcher did the right thing where the Falkland Islands are concerned.



#20 Saintslass

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Posted 08 April 2013 - 07:51 PM

Being from a shipbuilding town she tried to destroy, I only seen happy smiling faces today at work today.
No love for maggie in barrow

Your rhetoric is silly. 

 

Thatcher didn't try to destroy any community.  Her zeal was to break the stranglehold of the unelected unions.  You forget/choose to ignore, clearly, that following on from that policy was the one of rebuilding.  For example, she went on to create Enterprise Zones in the most affected areas, attracting inward investment into those same communities, and also secured substantial EEC monies into the hardest hit areas to aid regeneration.  One of the most enduring of those initial inward investments is Nissan in Sunderland.






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