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Thatcherism - The Political Debate Thread


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#241 John Rhino

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 08:13 AM

I've always linked the NHS to Bevan, not Attlee, even though it came to being during Attlee's premiership. However, regardless of the actual origins of it, a particular form of monetary policy (and by implication attitude towards other aspects of life) will likely always be known by the name of the person who was PM when it came into being, ie Thatcherism. There is no comparative Attleeism.


Quite possibly because until quite recently people did not attached trite shorthand isms to complex issues.
Attlee's achievements were immense at a time when most other politicians would have simply wilted under the enormity of the task.

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#242 nadera78

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 10:25 AM

Clement Attlee would have been the last politician to think it appropriate to have his name attached to a philosophy in such a ridiculously self-aggrandising manner. He'd have hated it.


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#243 Ackroman

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 10:37 AM

Interesting debate this. Makes me think that it's much harder to build something than knock it down. Attlee the builder and Thatcher the demolition merchant with little perspective on collateral damage. That's why the Yanks like her so much.



#244 John Rhino

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 11:20 AM

The wonderfully efficient BT has finally restored our PSTN line after six weeks.

 

We rarely answer it, especially during the day, and guess what, the first message left was "Our records show you may have had an accident that was not your fault.........

 

Even Lord Sugar is pretty brassed off with it all and the headline in yesterday's Sunday express, not known for it's socialist tone, was a classic.

 

Another wonderful legacy from the Thatcher era making all our lives better.


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#245 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 11:23 AM

You're starting to get personal again.  I aint biting.

I haven't made 'personal' comments to you on this occassion or previously.

 

If you object to what I say, then by all means report my comments to the moderators


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#246 John Rhino

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 11:35 AM

Kraft did buy Danone or more accurately, they bought the biscuit division of Danone and the French government did not block it.

 

Biwater holdings sold Biwater Services because they were quitting the UK water market as it was "over-regulated" - I hardly think that's Thatcherism at work. As far as I can see, they are still trading under new ownership.

 

My point exactly. They are still trading under new ownership. Why could the French see a going concern with a full order book as good business when we could not and sold it with the shareholders in the city, who probably had no idea where Clay Cross was, cheering it on?

 

The business is now run from elsewhere with no doubt all the kit imported and not made in Derbyshire.

 

Does it matter who owns these things the Tories say. Yes it does because when Saint Gobain closed the company it put at least 750 people out of work in a place little more than a village. Shops and much more closed and the tax payer of course picks up the pieces. All I'm saying is this would not be allowed in France but it's OK for a French company to do it to us - that's Thatcher's legacy.

 

The result was a ghost town  


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#247 fieldofclothofgold

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 02:17 PM

Interesting debate this. Makes me think that it's much harder to build something than knock it down. Attlee the builder and Thatcher the demolition merchant with little perspective on collateral damage. That's why the Yanks like her so much.

My wife is a relative of a journalist who writes for the Philadelphia Inquirer and Daily news,Will Bunch and he has been commenting all week saying things like "why werent there public demo's in the USA like the one going on in Britain right now when Reagan died?"There is a left wing in the USA

Edited by fieldofclothofgold, 15 April 2013 - 02:20 PM.

but you and I weve been through that and this is not our fate.
So let us so let us not talk falsely now.
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#248 Northern Sol

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 02:21 PM

My point exactly. They are still trading under new ownership. Why could the French see a going concern with a full order book as good business when we could not and sold it with the shareholders in the city, who probably had no idea where Clay Cross was, cheering it on?

 

The business is now run from elsewhere with no doubt all the kit imported and not made in Derbyshire.

 

Does it matter who owns these things the Tories say. Yes it does because when Saint Gobain closed the company it put at least 750 people out of work in a place little more than a village. Shops and much more closed and the tax payer of course picks up the pieces. All I'm saying is this would not be allowed in France but it's OK for a French company to do it to us - that's Thatcher's legacy.

 

The result was a ghost town  

We have a lower unemployment rate in the UK than in France. The reason being is that we allow companies to close unprofitable ventures. This means there is less risk in launching new projects.

 

Here in Italy, Telecom Italia own a television station that does nothing but lose large amounts of money. They'd like to close it down but the law (and unions) won't allow it. So they have to "sell" it to another company, when I say "sell", they actually have to pay the other company millions to take it off their hands. Meanwhile youth unemployment is 37% because companies do not take risks with new ventures. 

 

I have no idea why you imagine that this preferable.

 

Nor do I understand why you think a British company would not have closed down Clay Cross. The British company that owned it wanted shot of the whole enterprise. The French kept the business going (with one casualty).



#249 fieldofclothofgold

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 02:23 PM

At the end of WWII Churchill went for a snap election because he thought he would walk it.Attlee ran the home front and had 5 years to build to build up his manifesto
but you and I weve been through that and this is not our fate.
So let us so let us not talk falsely now.
The hour is getting late
FROM 2004,TO DO WHAT THIS CLUB HAS DONE,IF THATS NOT GREATNESSTHEN i DONT KNOW WHAT IS.

JAMIE PEACOCK

#250 Northern Sol

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 02:24 PM

The wonderfully efficient BT has finally restored our PSTN line after six weeks.

 

We rarely answer it, especially during the day, and guess what, the first message left was "Our records show you may have had an accident that was not your fault.........

 

Even Lord Sugar is pretty brassed off with it all and the headline in yesterday's Sunday express, not known for it's socialist tone, was a classic.

 

Another wonderful legacy from the Thatcher era making all our lives better.

Amazing then that this exact same compensation culture exists all over the developed world. Perhaps it's Thatcher's fault that the whole first world is like this. Or maybe you think anything that happened after 1979 is Thatcher's fault by default.



#251 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 03:57 PM

At the end of WWII Churchill went for a snap election because he thought he would walk it.Attlee ran the home front and had 5 years to build to build up his manifesto

It was near the end the war was still on, which made attlee's achievement even more significant
Churchill was good at the speech making but opposed Beveridge and the NHS and he had form for social and foreign policy as well as for instance along with Roosevelt completely underestimating Stalin at yalta
The population including those fighting abroad had become highly politicised.

Edited by l'angelo mysterioso, 15 April 2013 - 04:07 PM.

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#252 Ramite

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 04:47 PM

My point exactly. They are still trading under new ownership. Why could the French see a going concern with a full order book as good business when we could not and sold it with the shareholders in the city, who probably had no idea where Clay Cross was, cheering it on?

The business is now run from elsewhere with no doubt all the kit imported and not made in Derbyshire.

Does it matter who owns these things the Tories say. Yes it does because when Saint Gobain closed the company it put at least 750 people out of work in a place little more than a village. Shops and much more closed and the tax payer of course picks up the pieces. All I'm saying is this would not be allowed in France but it's OK for a French company to do it to us - that's Thatcher's legacy.

The result was a ghost town

John tbf it does happen in France Goodyear are shutting down the factory in Amiens. Both management and union blaming each other 1200 jobs gone. They protested long and loud about it. Goodyear wanted to change the t&cs. Dunlop factory was in same position the workers agreed to shift changes and the factory stayed open and Dunlop invested in new machinery.
More than half of Canadas companies are foreign owned, Belgium Ireland Holland and Sweden have higher % of companies foreign owned than we do. I agree it's not healthy to have such a large number of companies foreign owned but it does happen else where.
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#253 fieldofclothofgold

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 06:10 PM

Yes I have heard the famous socialist novel was passed around the armed forces abroad

It was near the end the war was still on, which made attlee's achievement even more significant
Churchill was good at the speech making but opposed Beveridge and the NHS and he had form for social and foreign policy as well as for instance along with Roosevelt completely underestimating Stalin at yalta
The population including those fighting abroad had become highly politicised.


but you and I weve been through that and this is not our fate.
So let us so let us not talk falsely now.
The hour is getting late
FROM 2004,TO DO WHAT THIS CLUB HAS DONE,IF THATS NOT GREATNESSTHEN i DONT KNOW WHAT IS.

JAMIE PEACOCK

#254 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 08:06 PM

Yes I have heard the famous socialist novel was passed around the armed forces abroad

 

 

Yes I have heard the famous socialist novel was passed around the armed forces abroad

troops were encouraged to discuss politics, the beveridge report was widely read.


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#255 Trojan

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Posted 15 April 2013 - 10:01 PM

At the end of WWII Churchill went for a snap election because he thought he would walk it.Attlee ran the home front and had 5 years to build to build up his manifesto

 

 

That's not quite the case. After Germany surrendered both Attlee and Churchill wanted to wartime coalition to continue, but Morrison (Deputy Leader of the Labour Party)  insisted that the Labour party wanted an election. So there was an election.  Everyone expected Churchill to walk it.  But he was booed at public meetings.  There's a Ken Loach film that's just been released called "The Spirit of 1945" which shows this happening.

Anyway Labour won and the notoriously taciturn Attlee went to see the tongue-tied King. Apparently they both stood there for some time until Attlee broke the silence and said "I've won the election" to which the King replied "yes I heard it on the news."


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#256 Saint Billinge

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 06:33 AM

This is a very interesting thread, especially how people sum things up. The beginning of the Eighties saw me both lose my job through redundancy as well as getting on the property ladder. With no older adults in the family, the Poll Tax would have had no bearing on my life, as well as no further job loss, because I decided to take up self-employment. I did suffer hugely from high interest rates on my mortgage, but simply weathered the storm. Whether privatisation was good or bad depending on a personal viewpoint, I never did come across anyone who cashed their shares in out of protest to give to charity! Speaking of the Poll Tax, I suppose the current banding system doesn't favour me, based as it is on property values, but I grin and bear it. There isn't much else I can do to change it. 

 

Nearing aged 65 and entering my "winter" years, life is too short to feel bitterness or hatred towards anyone: it isn't in my nature anyhow. I can understand other people's anger, but that anger only fills one's head with things that cannot be erased. I know of one person practically having an heart attack over Maggie's legacy, but it won't change what happened. 

 

Today, both my wife and I have been hit for six concerning our retirement plans, but then we both enjoy good health which is more important. I found out yesterday about an ex-client who was so seriously ill at home, that he didn't want any visitors to see him. It certainly puts life in perspective!



#257 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 08:52 AM

This is a very interesting thread, especially how people sum things up. The beginning of the Eighties saw me both lose my job through redundancy as well as getting on the property ladder. With no older adults in the family, the Poll Tax would have had no bearing on my life, as well as no further job loss, because I decided to take up self-employment. I did suffer hugely from high interest rates on my mortgage, but simply weathered the storm. Whether privatisation was good or bad depending on a personal viewpoint, I never did come across anyone who cashed their shares in out of protest to give to charity! Speaking of the Poll Tax, I suppose the current banding system doesn't favour me, based as it is on property values, but I grin and bear it. There isn't much else I can do to change it. 

 

Nearing aged 65 and entering my "winter" years, life is too short to feel bitterness or hatred towards anyone: it isn't in my nature anyhow. I can understand other people's anger, but that anger only fills one's head with things that cannot be erased. I know of one person practically having an heart attack over Maggie's legacy, but it won't change what happened. 

 

Today, both my wife and I have been hit for six concerning our retirement plans, but then we both enjoy good health which is more important. I found out yesterday about an ex-client who was so seriously ill at home, that he didn't want any visitors to see him. It certainly puts life in perspective!

 

 

This is a very interesting thread, especially how people sum things up. The beginning of the Eighties saw me both lose my job through redundancy as well as getting on the property ladder. With no older adults in the family, the Poll Tax would have had no bearing on my life, as well as no further job loss, because I decided to take up self-employment. I did suffer hugely from high interest rates on my mortgage, but simply weathered the storm. Whether privatisation was good or bad depending on a personal viewpoint, I never did come across anyone who cashed their shares in out of protest to give to charity! Speaking of the Poll Tax, I suppose the current banding system doesn't favour me, based as it is on property values, but I grin and bear it. There isn't much else I can do to change it. 

 

Nearing aged 65 and entering my "winter" years, life is too short to feel bitterness or hatred towards anyone: it isn't in my nature anyhow. I can understand other people's anger, but that anger only fills one's head with things that cannot be erased. I know of one person practically having an heart attack over Maggie's legacy, but it won't change what happened. 

 

Today, both my wife and I have been hit for six concerning our retirement plans, but then we both enjoy good health which is more important. I found out yesterday about an ex-client who was so seriously ill at home, that he didn't want any visitors to see him. It certainly puts life in perspective!

wise words Ray, and my life seems to in many but not all ways to have parallels with yours, although I always worked in public service.

I'd hardly  given Thatcher a second thought for years, for the same reasons as you. My brother's life was wrecked by the strike and it's only in recent years that he's started to become his own self again, and I don't think even he carries any baggage for her.

 

But look what goes and happens :she dies and there just isn't enough vomit in the world to expectorate in reaction to the venal, ass kissing beatification of the woman and what she stood for. Plus the taxpayers of a supposedly skint country has to pay for her Gilbert and Sullivan funeral.

 

There's bound to be a reaction. Personally all sorts of memories have been let out of their box, not by her death at a good age but by the reaction to it. I hope that when the funeral is over and bought and paid for with my money and the money of my brother who now works in the health surface, the stone that has been lifted can be let down with a thud.


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#258 Saint Billinge

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 09:17 AM

wise words Ray, and my life seems to in many but not all ways to have parallels with yours, although I always worked in public service.

I'd hardly  given Thatcher a second thought for years, for the same reasons as you. My brother's life was wrecked by the strike and it's only in recent years that he's started to become his own self again, and I don't think even he carries any baggage for her.

 

But look what goes and happens :she dies and there just isn't enough vomit in the world to expectorate in reaction to the venal, ass kissing beatification of the woman and what she stood for. Plus the taxpayers of a supposedly skint country has to pay for her Gilbert and Sullivan funeral.

 

There's bound to be a reaction. Personally all sorts of memories have been let out of their box, not by her death at a good age but by the reaction to it. I hope that when the funeral is over and bought and paid for with my money and the money of my brother who now works in the health surface, the stone that has been lifted can be let down with a thud.

 

Chris, I side with you on the funeral's excessive cost which is shameful under the current financial climate, but then many people have harboured hatred for years which only gives inner grief. 

 

As for the shares, people were celebrating by taking foreign holidays and purchasing new cars whilst putting her [Thatcher] down. I always look at life by taking the rough with the smooth and getting on with being happy. No doubt, future generations will look back on other controversial political figures in an unfavourable light, but it won't stop the world spinning! 



#259 Wolford6

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 09:32 AM

In a parallel news topic, all tv stations are showing footage of huge out-of-proportion military parades mounted by North korea to boost the image of its leadership. The media stations all present these clips with a tongue-in-cheek insouciance.

 

However, those same  media stations are treating the Thatcher funeral as a really important event of international significance and gravity. They are colluding with the Tories, where the Cameron Cabinet's motive is fundamentally the same as that of the politicians behind Kim Jong-un.

 

It would be really funny, except we are paying for it all.


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#260 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 09:35 AM

Chris, I side with you on the funeral's excessive cost which is shameful under the current financial climate, but then many people have harboured hatred for years which only gives inner grief. 

 

As for the shares, people were celebrating by taking foreign holidays and purchasing new cars whilst putting her [Thatcher] down. I always look at life by taking the rough with the smooth and getting on with being happy. No doubt, future generations will look back on other controversial political figures in an unfavourable light, but it won't stop the world spinning! 

 

 

Chris, I side with you on the funeral's excessive cost which is shameful under the current financial climate, but then many people have harboured hatred for years which only gives inner grief. 

 

As for the shares, people were celebrating by taking foreign holidays and purchasing new cars whilst putting her [Thatcher] down. I always look at life by taking the rough with the smooth and getting on with being happy. No doubt, future generations will look back on other controversial political figures in an unfavourable light, but it won't stop the world spinning! 

both our lives have had ups and downs and we've got on with living: which is what I was on about.

 

If my family and I can have nice things, or go to nice places it's because we've earned the right to.

 

What I object to: and this does seem to be part of the Thatcher legacy is that those who haven't got or had  the chance to earn a decent living for whatever reason are demonised as the underclass, and as scroungers, and 'chavs' when the vast majority are nothing of the sort.

This was brought home to me with the disparity of public and media attitude between Madelyn McAnn and Shannon Mathews. Also in the way that Shannon's mother's appalling behaviour after she was  was exposed was attributed to all people who live in council estates.

 

When the unemployment figures go up and down does that mean that the number of 'scroungers' or lazy people go up and down? It doesn't.

 

The unemployed and the impoverished have always been derided the 'haves', it makes them/us feel better than 'them', anything 'they' do have they shouldn't have, and has been given to them by their exploitation of those who have. I don't accept this for by far the majority of people who live on benefits. 

 

It's ok for some reason to mock 'chavs', or to enjoy the Hogarthian circus of the Jeremy Kyle Show. That kind of thing wouldn't be allowed if it were any other social group, and to me these attitudes whilst always present have become widespread and embodied into our natural psyche ovet the last thirty years and I think our way of life is the poorer for it.


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