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Thatcherism - The Political Debate Thread


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#261 gingerjon

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 09:40 AM

In a parallel news topic, all tv stations are showing footage of huge out-of-proportion military parades mounted by North korea to boost the image of its leadership. The media stations all present these clips with a tongue-in-cheek insouciance.

 

However, those same  media stations are treating the Thatcher funeral as a really important event of international significance and gravity. They are colluding with the Tories, where the Cameron Cabinet's motive is fundamentally the same as that of the politicians behind Kim Jong-un.

 

It would be really funny, except we are paying for it all.

The Thatcher funeral is - in my opinion - grotesque.  But it is not remotely comparable to the savage militarism and repression of a whole nation that goes on in North Korea.


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#262 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 09:42 AM

The Thatcher funeral is - in my opinion - grotesque.  But it is not remotely comparable to the savage militarism and repression of a whole nation that goes on in North Korea.

 

 

The Thatcher funeral is - in my opinion - grotesque.  But it is not remotely comparable to the savage militarism and repression of a whole nation that goes on in North Korea.

 I think it is remotely comparable: remotely.

I think Wolford does have a point.


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#263 Wolford6

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 09:50 AM

The Thatcher funeral is - in my opinion - grotesque.  But it is not remotely comparable to the savage militarism and repression of a whole nation that goes on in North Korea.

 

Yes, but the primary purpose of the North Korean parades is not to scare the home populace ... they are already scared. The parades are a propaganda exercise and a device to blackmail South Korea to give the neighbouring country more money and food.


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#264 gingerjon

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 09:56 AM

 I think it is remotely comparable: remotely.

I think Wolford does have a point.

 

The entire population of North Korea is brainwashed, dissent is punishable by gulag style imprisonment and death, contact with foreigners is banned, the flow of food, medicine and electricity is controlled by the state.  The country is in a permanent state of war whilst its population starves.  

 

In that context events like the Mass Games and the military parades take place.  Men, women and children are conscripted as participants into these events whilst others are forced to watch.

 

That will be comparable to Thatcher's funeral when you are told that you will be executed if you don't mourn appropriately.


Edited by gingerjon, 16 April 2013 - 09:56 AM.

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#265 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 10:01 AM

The entire population of North Korea is brainwashed, dissent is punishable by gulag style imprisonment and death, contact with foreigners is banned, the flow of food, medicine and electricity is controlled by the state.  The country is in a permanent state of war whilst its population starves.  

 

In that context events like the Mass Games and the military parades take place.  Men, women and children are conscripted as participants into these events whilst others are forced to watch.

 

That will be comparable to Thatcher's funeral when you are told that you will be executed if you don't mourn appropriately.

 

 

The entire population of North Korea is brainwashed, dissent is punishable by gulag style imprisonment and death, contact with foreigners is banned, the flow of food, medicine and electricity is controlled by the state.  The country is in a permanent state of war whilst its population starves.  

 

In that context events like the Mass Games and the military parades take place.  Men, women and children are conscripted as participants into these events whilst others are forced to watch.

 

That will be comparable to Thatcher's funeral when you are told that you will be executed if you don't mourn appropriately.

ginge i know this

hence my emphasis on the word 'remotely'


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#266 Phil

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 11:45 AM

both our lives have had ups and downs and we've got on with living: which is what I was on about.

 

If my family and I can have nice things, or go to nice places it's because we've earned the right to.

 

What I object to: and this does seem to be part of the Thatcher legacy is that those who haven't got or had  the chance to earn a decent living for whatever reason are demonised as the underclass, and as scroungers, and 'chavs' when the vast majority are nothing of the sort.

This was brought home to me with the disparity of public and media attitude between Madelyn McAnn and Shannon Mathews. Also in the way that Shannon's mother's appalling behaviour after she was  was exposed was attributed to all people who live in council estates.

 

When the unemployment figures go up and down does that mean that the number of 'scroungers' or lazy people go up and down? It doesn't.

 

The unemployed and the impoverished have always been derided the 'haves', it makes them/us feel better than 'them', anything 'they' do have they shouldn't have, and has been given to them by their exploitation of those who have. I don't accept this for by far the majority of people who live on benefits. 

 

It's ok for some reason to mock 'chavs', or to enjoy the Hogarthian circus of the Jeremy Kyle Show. That kind of thing wouldn't be allowed if it were any other social group, and to me these attitudes whilst always present have become widespread and embodied into our natural psyche ovet the last thirty years and I think our way of life is the poorer for it.

 

 

One of the Thatcher gov'ts huge successes was to blame the unemployed for unemployment. A situation which has persisted to this day. the fact is "full employment" is a thing of the past there will probably always be a MILLION unemployed and many others in temporary or casual or part-time employment.

 

When will any gov't address this?


Edited by Phil, 16 April 2013 - 11:46 AM.

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#267 Griff9of13

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 12:29 PM

both our lives have had ups and downs and we've got on with living: which is what I was on about.

 

If my family and I can have nice things, or go to nice places it's because we've earned the right to.

 

What I object to: and this does seem to be part of the Thatcher legacy is that those who haven't got or had  the chance to earn a decent living for whatever reason are demonised as the underclass, and as scroungers, and 'chavs' when the vast majority are nothing of the sort.

This was brought home to me with the disparity of public and media attitude between Madelyn McAnn and Shannon Mathews. Also in the way that Shannon's mother's appalling behaviour after she was  was exposed was attributed to all people who live in council estates.

 

When the unemployment figures go up and down does that mean that the number of 'scroungers' or lazy people go up and down? It doesn't.

 

The unemployed and the impoverished have always been derided the 'haves', it makes them/us feel better than 'them', anything 'they' do have they shouldn't have, and has been given to them by their exploitation of those who have. I don't accept this for by far the majority of people who live on benefits. 

 

It's ok for some reason to mock 'chavs', or to enjoy the Hogarthian circus of the Jeremy Kyle Show. That kind of thing wouldn't be allowed if it were any other social group, and to me these attitudes whilst always present have become widespread and embodied into our natural psyche ovet the last thirty years and I think our way of life is the poorer for it.

 

Great post, and something I have said before, admittedly far less eloquently, on previous threads where this has come up. 

 

These days I must consider myself one of the 'haves'. However I know in the past I have been one of the 'have nots'. I consider myself lucky in both respects; I can appreciate my current situation and how lucky compared to many that I am. I was the same person when living on benefits as I am now; no more or less ambitious or hard working.

 

I also appreciate that without a relatively short period claiming benefit I wouldn't be able to be doing the job I now have. JSA and housing benefit were what I had to rely on back in 1999 when I packed in my job to go to college in order that I gain the necessary qualifications to go to university. 


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#268 Griff9of13

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 01:01 PM

Many have been lavishing praise on Thatcher, Call me Dave said she had made Britain "great" again. What I’m still having trouble with is trying think of what she did exactly that was so great. On this thread there has be discussions of many of the policies she was deemed responsible for, but which of these could be described as great?


Edited by Griff9of13, 16 April 2013 - 01:37 PM.

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#269 Northern Sol

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 01:04 PM

One of the Thatcher gov'ts huge successes was to blame the unemployed for unemployment. A situation which has persisted to this day. the fact is "full employment" is a thing of the past there will probably always be a MILLION unemployed and many others in temporary or casual or part-time employment.

 

When will any gov't address this?

Quite a few have had a go but the left do not like the solutions.



#270 fieldofclothofgold

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 01:42 PM

Oh thanks I believe you.It just that I have just read a novel and in that Churchill went for it and everyone else were thinking it was going to be October ,cheers

That's not quite the case. After Germany surrendered both Attlee and Churchill wanted to wartime coalition to continue, but Morrison (Deputy Leader of the Labour Party)  insisted that the Labour party wanted an election. So there was an election.  Everyone expected Churchill to walk it.  But he was booed at public meetings.  There's a Ken Loach film that's just been released called "The Spirit of 1945" which shows this happening.

Anyway Labour won and the notoriously taciturn Attlee went to see the tongue-tied King. Apparently they both stood there for some time until Attlee broke the silence and said "I've won the election" to which the King replied "yes I heard it on the news."


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#271 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 03:30 PM

Quite a few have had a go but the left do not like the solutions.


Who or what is this 'left' you speak of?

What are or we're the solutions?

To what extent have they succeeded?
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#272 Phil

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 04:39 PM

Quite a few have had a go but the left do not like the solutions.

 

 

go on then what solutions for improving the lives of millions of unemployed workers have been opposed by the left?


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#273 Northern Sol

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 06:28 PM

go on then what solutions for improving the lives of millions of unemployed workers have been opposed by the left?

That's what I mean. The "improving the lives" bit. You oppose ideas that don't fit under your heading of "improving lives".

 

Ideas like making people on long-term benefits accept job offers. It wouldn't fit the ideology of the left to admit that some people simply do not want to work. Or opposing mass migration; this usually comes under the heading of "not adopting the racist language of the National Front / BNP".



#274 Phil

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 07:15 PM

That's what I mean. The "improving the lives" bit. You oppose ideas that don't fit under your heading of "improving lives".

 

Ideas like making people on long-term benefits accept job offers. It wouldn't fit the ideology of the left to admit that some people simply do not want to work. Or opposing mass migration; this usually comes under the heading of "not adopting the racist language of the National Front / BNP".

 

 

Job offers for what jobs? as I said there will be no return to full employment, so what do we do with people who are out of work?


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#275 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 07:21 PM

That's what I mean. The "improving the lives" bit. You oppose ideas that don't fit under your heading of "improving lives".

Ideas like making people on long-term benefits accept job offers. It wouldn't fit the ideology of the left to admit that some people simply do not want to work. Or opposing mass migration; this usually comes under the heading of "not adopting the racist language of the National Front / BNP".


What has laziness got todo with 'left wing ideology'? Who is this left you speak of? I've never come across any ideology that believes in laziness other than that perhaps of the bullingdon club.
There you go again demonising the poor.
Every time someone loses their job do they automatically become lazy? Of course there are the chronically unemployed: although these often tend to be unemployable
Where are these jobs that are apparently on offer?
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#276 Northern Sol

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 07:28 PM

What has laziness got todo with 'left wing ideology'? Who is this left you speak of? I've never come across any ideology that believes in laziness other than that perhaps of the bullingdon club.
There you go again demonising the poor.
Every time someone loses their job do they automatically become lazy? Of course there are the chronically unemployed: although these often tend to be unemployable
Where are these jobs that are apparently on offer?

I don't recall using the word "lazy" and yet you used it three time.

 

Nor do I see how I could be argued to have demonised anybody. You might want to notice the lack of emotive words in my post.

 

There are people that chose not to work. Unless you live in an ivory tower, you will have met a few.



#277 Northern Sol

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 07:30 PM

Job offers for what jobs? as I said there will be no return to full employment, so what do we do with people who are out of work?

Don't tell me that there are no jobs. There clearly are. Migrants come to the UK and find jobs, how does that happen exactly?



#278 Phil

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 07:34 PM

Don't tell me that there are no jobs. There clearly are. Migrants come to the UK and find jobs, how does that happen exactly?

 

 

not disputed, and there are currently  2.52 million unemployed people in this country. Are there 2.5 million vacancies?. No sensible commentator of the right or left  disputes that full employment will never return, so how do we address this problem?


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#279 Northern Sol

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 07:40 PM

not disputed, and there are currently  2.52 million unemployed people in this country. Are there 2.5 million vacancies?. No sensible commentator of the right or left  disputes that full employment will never return, so how do we address this problem?

There are clearly not 2.5 million vacancies.

 

Part of the problem is that the Labour government created a lot of jobs but they mostly didn't go to Britons. We aren't going to get "full employment" whilst Eastern European is in the economic state that it is in. It might be possible in the future.

 

In the old days, full employment was taken to mean around 2% unemployment to allow for "frictional unemployment" i.e. people changing jobs or unemployed temporarily. I think full employment these days should be redefined as "those people who want to work have a job", there are too many who don't.



#280 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 16 April 2013 - 07:44 PM

I don't recall using the word "lazy" and yet you used it three time.

Nor do I see how I could be argued to have demonised anybody. You might want to notice the lack of emotive words in my post.

There are people that chose not to work. Unless you live in an ivory tower, you will have met a few.

Doesn't, 'simply not wanting to work' cover it?
If it doesn't ok substitute the phrase for 'laziness'
I've met all sorts of people who 'don't want to work'
They are massively outnumbered by the millions who do.

Edit and who are these left wing idealogues who say what you say they say?
You don't have to use emotive words to 'demonise' people . That's the English language for you

Edited by l'angelo mysterioso, 16 April 2013 - 07:47 PM.

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