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Thatcherism - The Political Debate Thread


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#61 Saintslass

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 05:50 PM

More fool us; by allowing the endless import of cheap foreign textiles we are condoning child labour and sweatshop working. We can't stop these practises, but we can tax them.

I agree.  Unfortunately it is the people of the UK who have destroyed our textile industry by doing just as you suggest.



#62 Saintslass

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 05:52 PM

I don't think you are fully aware of what happened to the UK steel industry; it was sold off to Corus (Dutch) and Tata (Indian). Both just wanted the order book.

I am aware of that yes.  But that is not Thatcher destroying the steel industry. 



#63 Saint Billinge

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 06:03 PM

Not sure why you've picked MIRAS, to be honest. Someone will probably correct me, but I thought there was tax relief on the interest paid on mortgages before MIRAS. All it did was alter the way it was paid - 'at source'. It was popular among almost everyone trying to buy a house.

 

Was this down to Thatcherism, or just the changing nature of global industry, for which we were unprepared.

 

Your third point is interesting. Thatcherism could not have happened if the Labour party had been able to offer a credible alternative.

 

What is most disappointing is that we have still not dealt with the fallout of Thatcherism in an effective way. We need new skills, new opportunities, a new outlook. I'm beggared if I know how to achieve that, though.

 

You are correct regarding MIRAS. Endowment mortgages became 'popular' when MIRAS was altered. In the end though it didn't work out.



#64 Saintslass

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 06:27 PM

yet again, and I wonder for how many more times few dispute that much of the UK's heavy industry was obsolete. The issue surrounds how the issue was addressed.

It wasn't just the nationalised industris that were uncompetitive.

 

presumably you are against Taxpayers' money being used to subsidise the agriculture industry, orinded on unemploymet benefits.

 

The UK car industry produces vehicles right across the market spectrum-check out what the higly succesful  Nissan plant in Sunderland makes for instance, or honda in Derby for another example.

I know about the car industry.  The Nissan plant in Sunderland, for instance, was one of the first examples of inward investment attracted by Thatcher following on from the battles with the unions.  However, Britain did used to make British cars.  The nationalised company was British Leyland (and hopelessly inadequate it was too).  But there were others (all pretty much hopelessly inadequate in the end).



#65 Bostik Bailey

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 06:36 PM

Sorry but it did relate to Thatcher; her government put up interest rates that meant the industry couldn't afford to re-tool to modern machinery. I worked with a bloke who had this problem. He and his partner had purchased a firm and had orders that couldn't be met with the existing machinery. They couldn't get a loan because their building was rented and couldn't be offered as surety. The business closed, costing about twenty people their jobs. Under a Labour administration, they'd have had their guarantee underwritten.

I worked at John Fosters Black Dyke Mills in 1975. The firm already had a very big mill but was bullish about its future and decommissioned its mill pond and built two large brick buildings ... spinning shed and warehouse ... on the footprint.

Similarly, I dealt with Woolcombers who built a huge boiler to burn scouring sludge to provide heat and steam for their combing plants.

At work in the 1970's, I dealt with ICI and Holliday Dyes, both doing well until Thatcher's government got in.


Interesting point

For all those people who claim industry back then was uncompetitive poorly run etc, compare that to the recent issues with our financial sector.

Why is it right to bail out one poorly managed sector but allow another sector to die out?

#66 Bostik Bailey

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 06:41 PM

The nationalised company was British Leyland (and hopelessly inadequate it was too). But there were others (all pretty much hopelessly inadequate in the end).


I presume you are alluding to RBS, Northern Rock and HBOS. All hopelessly inadequate in the end and market forces were left to sort it all out - oh hang on a minute

#67 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 06:41 PM

I know about the car industry.  The Nissan plant in Sunderland, for instance, was one of the first examples of inward investment attracted by Thatcher following on from the battles with the unions.  However, Britain did used to make British cars.  The nationalised company was British Leyland (and hopelessly inadequate it was too).  But there were others (all pretty much hopelessly inadequate in the end).

I think you'll find that;

several car companies spent some time undder state ownership

including Chrysler and rolls royce.

 

They were nationalised because under their various guises: rootes group(chrysler), bmc,blmc, Austin Rover and finally Rover they were a basket case but considered to be strategically important.

 

the battles were between unions and management . I don't thinkl such turkeys as the autin allegro, austin princess, morris marina etc etc etc were designed by trade unions. The problem with industrial relations in British manufacturing industry centred around obsolete prctices on both sides. Union membership at plces such as Nissan is compulsory, there is a closed shop-essential in keeping communications open and constent -both ways.

 

You said that the UK car industry concntrates on high end products. It doesn't and I gave you an answer why it wasn't, next you say you know about Nissan. I find tis a little odd.


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#68 Bedford Roughyed

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 06:41 PM

http://blogs.channel...her-myths/13236

The Thatcher era certainly saw de-industrialisation, but that process began before she became prime minister and accelerated under Blair and Brown.

Manufacturing output fell from 25 per cent of the economy in 1980 to 23 per cent in 1990.

 

The decline was much faster under Labour – manufacturing fell from 17 per cent of the economy to just 11 per cent between 2000 and 2010.

 

Most advanced economies have experienced a similar decline in manufacturing as a share of GDP.


With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

#69 Saintslass

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 07:19 PM

I think you'll find that;

several car companies spent some time undder state ownership

including Chrysler and rolls royce.

 

They were nationalised because under their various guises: rootes group(chrysler), bmc,blmc, Austin Rover and finally Rover they were a basket case but considered to be strategically important.

 

the battles were between unions and management . I don't thinkl such turkeys as the autin allegro, austin princess, morris marina etc etc etc were designed by trade unions. The problem with industrial relations in British manufacturing industry centred around obsolete prctices on both sides. Union membership at plces such as Nissan is compulsory, there is a closed shop-essential in keeping communications open and constent -both ways.

 

You said that the UK car industry concntrates on high end products. It doesn't and I gave you an answer why it wasn't, next you say you know about Nissan. I find tis a little odd.

I said that the British car industry now is high end.  You know what I wrote but you choose to be obtuse.  Why?  There is no need for it.

 

Nissan is a Japanese company which happens to produce cars in Britain (among other places).  However, I was labouring under an error as I thought Aston Martin was still a British company but it appears not.  I knew that Bentley and Rolls Royce had gone to the Germans but I didn't realise that Aston Martin had been sold to Ford way back in 1994.  We do produce our own Formula 1 cars still so I suppose that is something.



#70 Saintslass

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 07:20 PM

Interesting point

For all those people who claim industry back then was uncompetitive poorly run etc, compare that to the recent issues with our financial sector.

Why is it right to bail out one poorly managed sector but allow another sector to die out?

Presumably what action is or is not taken towards a particular sector will be a decision based upon how important that sector is to the country's economy?  The scrappage system under Labour played a big part in getting the car sales market back on track although it has taken until very recently for the industry to record truly healthy sales again.


Edited by Saintslass, 09 April 2013 - 07:21 PM.


#71 Trojan

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 07:42 PM

This is the big myth.  The miners' union did not destroy the Heath government.  Heath confronted the miners.  He brought in the three day week and then took what he thought was the sure fire opportunity of five more years by calling an election. ( Remember Francis Maud last year trying to stir up a strike with the fuel delivery drivers? For the Tory political advantage? ) Well Heath gambled the people would put him back in and he lost.

  However, she came to power at a time when the unions were strong enough to depose a government (as they effectively did with Ted Heath's government).  


"Your a one trick pony Trojan" - Parksider 10th March 2013

#72 Northern Sol

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 07:43 PM

Interesting point

For all those people who claim industry back then was uncompetitive poorly run etc, compare that to the recent issues with our financial sector.

Why is it right to bail out one poorly managed sector but allow another sector to die out?

Because with the financial sector it's just some people's jobs but the entire economy at stake.

 

Happened in Germany around 1930, everybody's savings were wiped out, nobody put money in a bank after that, no banks had any cash to loan out.

 

You know what happened next.



#73 Trojan

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 07:51 PM

Not in Bradford, it wasn't. Still employed thousands when she came to power.

I'd agree that the textile industry was not exactly thriving, but in Morley where I live there were still one or two mills working.  When she was in power spokesmen for the Tories always dated their successes from 1982 - 3 years after the 1979 election. Because their pig-headed policies before then had destroyed British industries that admitedly were not in the best of shape.  Doubling VAT, high interest rates and an overvalued pound killed them.  Thatcher believed that  Britain earning its living from financial services was preferable to "smokestack" industries. Look where it's got us.

BTW another reason she should go to hell was she was one of the inventors of the disgusting soft ice cream. <_<


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#74 Saintslass

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 08:42 PM

This is the big myth.  The miners' union did not destroy the Heath government.  Heath confronted the miners.  He brought in the three day week and then took what he thought was the sure fire opportunity of five more years by calling an election. ( Remember Francis Maud last year trying to stir up a strike with the fuel delivery drivers? For the Tory political advantage? ) Well Heath gambled the people would put him back in and he lost.

It isn't a myth.  There is nothing mythical about the power held by the unions in the 1970s. 



#75 Steve May

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 08:58 PM

I know about the car industry.  The Nissan plant in Sunderland, for instance, was one of the first examples of inward investment attracted by Thatcher following on from the battles with the unions.  However, Britain did used to make British cars.  The nationalised company was British Leyland (and hopelessly inadequate it was too).  But there were others (all pretty much hopelessly inadequate in the end).

Good, and correct, use of "inward investment". Nissan opened a factory in Sunderland where there wasn't one before. That is inward investment.

Usually "inward investment" in the mouth of a Tory means "we sold something important to the Japanese and we now have no control over it"

Inward investment of the Tory kind is the reason that something as strategically important to the UK as our electricity generation and distribution is now mostly owned by the French government.

That's me.  I'm done.


#76 Jonty

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 09:09 PM

barrowbob, on 08 Apr 2013 - 20:24, said:

Being from a shipbuilding town she tried to destroy, I only seen happy smiling faces today at work today.
No love for maggie in barrow

Bit of an odd one, considering Barrow, an industrial northern town, once described as "the most working class town in England", and it's surroundings elected a Tory MP for the duration of Thatcher's premiership. Thatcher did not try to destroy shipbuilding in Barrow; instead the end of the Cold War led to a major decline in the need for shipbuilding for military purposes and the town became a victim of the "peace dividend".

 

The investment and regeneration that occurred off the back of this, and continued under Major and Blair, diversified the Furness economy and moved Barrow away from being a one-horse town.

 

I'm no fan of her policies, but you can't deny that the Cold War was good for Barrow, and the end of it was a good thing for the World.


Edited by Jonty, 09 April 2013 - 09:14 PM.

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#77 Trojan

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 09:17 PM

It isn't a myth.  There is nothing mythical about the power held by the unions in the 1970s. 

Unions have no power except that leant to them by their members.  The Thatcher government in curtailing Union activity was actually acting against a large minority of this country's working population. In addition she also brought in a clause to try and cripple the Labour party by trying to stop the political levy.   Funny I didn't notice her bringing in a law that companies must allow shareholders a vote before they contributed to the Tory party.


Edited by Trojan, 09 April 2013 - 09:18 PM.

"Your a one trick pony Trojan" - Parksider 10th March 2013

#78 John Rhino

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 10:03 PM



Here's a good thing that happened: telephones. Can you imagine what things would have been like if the phon system had still been run by the GPO?


You mean it could be worse than BT who have left me without a PSTN line for six weeks? Logged it on line, it's tested, fault found and the job is cancelled two days later.
Bemused man it India is very synthetic, says it shouldn't happen and will report it. Nothing happens.
We are now living in a world where no one takes responsibility for anything and it is impossible to complain.
Not sure if Thatcher is responsible but she sure set up the path for it to happen.

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#79 John Rhino

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 10:08 PM

I will say something good about Thatcher. I assume because she came from relatively humble beginnings and probably used the health service she did not try to destroy it

That was left to two posh boys who have never used it in their lives.

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#80 Saintslass

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Posted 09 April 2013 - 10:11 PM

Good, and correct, use of "inward investment". Nissan opened a factory in Sunderland where there wasn't one before. That is inward investment.

Usually "inward investment" in the mouth of a Tory means "we sold something important to the Japanese and we now have no control over it"

Inward investment of the Tory kind is the reason that something as strategically important to the UK as our electricity generation and distribution is now mostly owned by the French government.

 I know what inward investment is, thank you. 

 

Nissan opening their factory at Sunderland was as a direct result of Thatcher's policy to attract inward investment to Britain to replace the outgoing heavy industry.  She created Enterprise Zones and secured EC grants also (which St Helens refused due to the ongoing dumbness of its Labour run council and it's touchy feely relationship with Derek Hatton and the scouse militants - we are still counting the cost today). 






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