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Minimum Standards


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#21 The Parksider

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 06:25 AM

That would kill the game.

It'd kill Leigh.

P & R would also kill clubs unless the gap could be bridged.

Maybe there is no solution to a massive TV contract some clubs can have other can't have in terms of keping 30 odd clubs alive.

So maybe the argument moves on as to how to keep Wigan alive.

#22 The Parksider

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 06:32 AM

1. PnR has not been given anywhere near the time required for it to be proven a success or failure.
 
2. I think that Licencing should be scrapped altogether and nor should there be any PnR. 
 
3. It should be a target of the RFL and SLE to have a final 10, 12 or 14 teams that make up SL. Perhaps set a four year cut off date when this will happen.
 
4. Unsuccessful clubs will have to ply their trade in the Championship until the day comes that the RFL and SL have enough money and evidence of demand to help financially sustain a new entry much in the same way as the NRL, NFL and AFL.

1. I don't understand this? There were years of P&R prior to SL and ten years of it in SL.

2. It's a discredited system and should be scrapped IMHO.

3. Centrally planning the Superleague business as a whole and not leaving things to chance and individual clubs to work to seems the only logical option to take without persisting with a failed policy, or going back to another failed policy.

4. That will certainly please the myriad of people who advocate copying American and Australian systems. I personally IMHO think the central planning you seem to advocate provides the control the game will need. It may also accelerate the demise of championship clubs unless the "money and demand" necessary to avoid this materialises.

And that's a long long shot?

Care to name your number for SL and name the clubs??

Edited by The Parksider, 17 April 2013 - 06:35 AM.


#23 statties

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 06:44 AM

That would kill the game.

and why would a reduction in teams and strengthening of the competition kill the game?



#24 statties

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 06:52 AM

My big question I guess is why do we need promotion and relegation?

 

Why cant a club (and I mean all up the divisions) be content with competing in the competition they are in?

 

What is wrong with Halifax creating a dynasty in the Championship and competing in four successive GF's?

 

In the case of Championship clubs, if there is evidence of demand, finances and player strength for another club in SL then those clubs can then apply to join the competition when that opportunity arises.

 

Too many professional clubs aiming for the stars is what is killing the game.



#25 a.n Other

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 07:43 AM





In the case of Championship clubs, if there is evidence of demand, finances and player strength for another club in SL then those clubs can then apply to join the competition when that opportunity arises.

How would you quantify this?

#26 The Parksider

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 07:56 AM

My big question I guess is why do we need promotion and relegation?
 
Why cant a club be content with competing in the competition they are in?
 
What is wrong with Halifax creating a dynasty in the Championship and competing in four successive GF's?
 
In the case of Championship clubs, if there is evidence of demand, finances and player strength for another club in SL then those clubs can then apply to join the competition when that opportunity arises.
 
Too many professional clubs aiming for the stars is what is killing the game.

I agree, but a club cannot be "content" it's the fans that have to be content.

And they are not.

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Edited by The Parksider, 17 April 2013 - 07:57 AM.


#27 statties

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 08:02 AM

the same way that other sports quantify demand for a new club.

 

A high population base

 

If an area or existing club has high levels of RL viewership

 

Evidence of well supported sports locally

 

A location where the club will not directly impact on the support of an existing SL club or may be dwarfed by an existing SL club

 

A new venue have perhaps had a match taken to them on the road with promising results,

 

An existing club can display their ability for strong community engagement

 

An existing local junior and youth structure

 

Support and financial backing from the local government

 

The finances available to run a full academy set up

 

That is simply a few from ways a newly accepted club could quantify.

 

The RFL and SLE would need to have the reserve to supplement the club over 5 - 10 years to ensure the club is successful. Unfortunately the RFL is not in a position to promote its own competition effectively, so is not in a position to do this



#28 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 02:22 PM

My big question I guess is why do we need promotion and relegation?

Why cant a club (and I mean all up the divisions) be content with competing in the competition they are in?

What is wrong with Halifax creating a dynasty in the Championship and competing in four successive GF's?

In the case of Championship clubs, if there is evidence of demand, finances and player strength for another club in SL then those clubs can then apply to join the competition when that opportunity arises.

Too many professional clubs aiming for the stars is what is killing the game.


As Parky said, fans want their clubs to have the chance to play on a bigger stage - by earning the right on the pitch. Its called sport in the UK.

I wont watch a no mark league with no hope and 95% of fans of pro clubs outside SK wont either. Also fans in those towns frozen out will give up subs on sky and premier (I already have in anger)

Ask yourself this question - would your idea work in football, and would you be happy to publicly promote the concept to the likes of Leeds Utd, Sheff Wed, Millwall etc fans? Its just the same for us but on a snaller scale.

#29 Cherry and White

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 02:34 PM

jamie peacock has his say on super league.

 

http://loverugbyleag...ake-action.html


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#30 Dave T

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Posted 17 April 2013 - 02:40 PM

jamie peacock has his say on super league.

 

http://loverugbyleag...ake-action.html

So he suggests cutting the top level combined salary cap by £5m and says use the extra money to sign players back. Erm. what extra money?

 

Players won't rush back from Union or the NRL to play 2nd tier.


Edited by Dave T, 17 April 2013 - 02:41 PM.


#31 Bulliac

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 09:57 AM

As Parky said, fans want their clubs to have the chance to play on a bigger stage - by earning the right on the pitch. Its called sport in the UK.

I wont watch a no mark league with no hope and 95% of fans of pro clubs outside SK wont either. Also fans in those towns frozen out will give up subs on sky and premier (I already have in anger)

Ask yourself this question - would your idea work in football, and would you be happy to publicly promote the concept to the likes of Leeds Utd, Sheff Wed, Millwall etc fans? Its just the same for us but on a snaller scale.

It doesn't have to work in football as they are not in the position of only having 14 professional clubs.

One of, if not the main, reasons why licensing was brought in was to end the yo-yo syndrome, which we had with the promoted club going straight down again as it couldn't compete. You, more than many others, should remember that. It simply wasn't fair on the promoted club - and licensing does, at least, give the promoted club three seasons to get its act together. Until we can come up with a P&R system which protects the last promoted club from immediate relegation, whilst still being 'fair' to the other clubs hanging around the bottom, P&R is history. Those two principles seem mutually incompatible to me.
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#32 Hornetto

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 11:07 AM

About a year ago, our Hornets blog ran an article on restructuring Rugby League including P&R.

 

We went with:

 

 

"Minimum standards for promotion to Super League.

 

Automatic promotion and relegation between the club that finishes bottom of Super League and the club that wins the Championship. Promotion and relegation would, however, be subject to the Minimum Standards criteria which require certain standards to be met across all areas of a professional club's business.

 

Clubs wishing to play in Super League would have to fulfil a list of criteria to be determined by the RFL and agreed by Championship clubs. This 'minimum standards plan' might cover areas including stadium specification &  ground tenure, club administration and key roles, financial status & business/budget plan for playing at a higher level, community development programmes, medical & safety, marketing, plans to increase attendances, plans for adherence to the salary cap and playing/contractual commitments. The purpose of the minimum criteria would be an attempt to ensure a base level of on- and off-field standards for all clubs to operate by.

 

Clubs wishing to play in Super League would be asked to submit their minimum standards plan to the RFL by a predetermined deadline. If their plan meets the standards, the club would be granted a 'promotion licence' that would remain valid for three years. Their submission would then be reviewed when/if a club finishes top of the Championship, to validate that the standards remain in place. 

 

Clubs could review/up-grade/amend their plans at any time during that licence period, but the revised plan would replace its predecessor only for the remainder of the licence period. Clubs which did not submit a minimum standards plan at the outset would not be permitted to submit one during an existing licence period, but could do when submissions were invited for the next period."

 

 


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#33 The Parksider

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 12:44 PM

We went with:
 
Automatic promotion and relegation between the club that finishes bottom of Super League and the club that wins the Championship. Promotion and relegation would, however, be subject to the Minimum Standards criteria.

I reckon it'd have gone like this if it had been put in a few years ago......

2009 celtic C. down (and out) Barrow denied
2010 catalans down Fev up
2011 Fev down catalans up
2012 wakefield down and sheffield denied.

Looks like in reality it'd be a pigs ear. Expansion clubs would be hard hit, promoted clubs would not get time to be established and go straight back down (widnes this year), and clubs would be denied on standards so the status quo would remain. Not very exciting...

In practice it doesn't work IMHO.

#34 a.n Other

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 01:59 PM

I reckon it'd have gone like this if it had been put in a few years ago......

2009 celtic C. down (and out) Barrow denied
2010 catalans down Fev up
2011 Fev down catalans up
2012 wakefield down and sheffield denied.

Looks like in reality it'd be a pigs ear. Expansion clubs would be hard hit, promoted clubs would not get time to be established and go straight back down (widnes this year), and clubs would be denied on standards so the status quo would remain. Not very exciting...

In practice it doesn't work IMHO.

What makes you think Catalan would have finished bottom?

#35 keighley

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 02:12 PM

It doesn't have to work in football as they are not in the position of only having 14 professional clubs.

One of, if not the main, reasons why licensing was brought in was to end the yo-yo syndrome, which we had with the promoted club going straight down again as it couldn't compete. You, more than many others, should remember that. It simply wasn't fair on the promoted club - and licensing does, at least, give the promoted club three seasons to get its act together. Until we can come up with a P&R system which protects the last promoted club from immediate relegation, whilst still being 'fair' to the other clubs hanging around the bottom, P&R is history. Those two principles seem mutually incompatible to me.

 

P and r in the SL era promoted Wakefield, Hull KR, Huddersfield, Castleford and Leigh. Only Leigh are not currently in SL. How do you come uo with this yo yo fantasy?



#36 a.n Other

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 02:29 PM


P and r in the SL era promoted Wakefield, Hull KR, Huddersfield, Castleford and Leigh. Only Leigh are not currently in SL. How do you come uo with this yo yo fantasy?


Didn't Hull Sharks get promoted as well?

#37 red dwarf

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 06:04 PM

And Widnes



#38 bobbruce

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 08:05 PM

P and r in the SL era promoted Wakefield, Hull KR, Huddersfield, Castleford and Leigh. Only Leigh are not currently in SL. How do you come uo with this yo yo fantasy?


I love this all the stick the RFL and Huddersfield used to get when they were avoiding relegation. Now they're being used in an argument to show how P and R works.

#39 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 09:28 PM

So they can throw the kitchen sink at staying in the division and that would be ok?

It isn't a division it's a separate competition
But throwing the financial kitchen sink is never good as those who did it being promoted and relegated year on year found out to their long term cost
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#40 The Parksider

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 09:43 PM

What makes you think Catalan would have finished bottom?

The fact that they did actually finish bottom.




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