Jump to content


RUGBY LEAGUE WORLD MAGAZINE (ISSUE 397 - MAY 2014): Available to download now. Get the app from Apple Newsstand or GooglePlay, or click here to read it online now at Pocketmags.com - Print edition in shops from Friday, or click here to get it delivered by post in the UK or worldwide.

Rugby League World - April 2014
League Express

Podcast

Photo
- - - - -

Boston Marathon Finishing Line Bombed


  • Please log in to reply
87 replies to this topic

#41 Northern Sol

Northern Sol
  • Moderator
  • 16,595 posts

Posted 22 April 2013 - 07:09 PM

Good. All 'Moslems' are ethnically and culturally identical, so Wolford's decision to shoehorn these ethnic Chechens who have grown up in the US in with his well-aired views on ethnic Pakistanis in Bradford is completely reasonable. I hope your wife is suitably shamed.

They aren't the same but they are related. Islam is based around the idea of a community of believers that transcends national and tribal boundaries after all.

 

If the bombers' comments are anything to go by his motivation seems to have been Afghanistan and Iraq despite being neither Afghan nor Iraqi.



#42 gingerjon

gingerjon
  • Coach
  • 28,392 posts

Posted 22 April 2013 - 08:02 PM

Islam is based around the idea of a community of believers that transcends national and tribal boundaries after all.

That'll be why the Sunni and Shia get on so well.
Cheer up, RL is actually rather good
- Severus, July 2012

#43 Northern Sol

Northern Sol
  • Moderator
  • 16,595 posts

Posted 22 April 2013 - 09:17 PM

That'll be why the Sunni and Shia get on so well.

They both believe in the community of believers. They just hate those who don't belong to the one-true-community.

 

Nevertheless Sunni Muslims around the world are connected just as Shi'ia around the world are connected.

 

http://www.cbc.ca/ne...ec-arrests.html

 

"Religion of peace" at it again.



#44 gingerjon

gingerjon
  • Coach
  • 28,392 posts

Posted 23 April 2013 - 06:11 AM

They both believe in the community of believers. They just hate those who don't belong to the one-true-community.
 
Nevertheless Sunni Muslims around the world are connected just as Shi'ia around the world are connected.
 
http://www.cbc.ca/ne...ec-arrests.html
 
"Religion of peace" at it again.

I'd be interested in knowing if that Canadian thing has any real substance to it. It could just be the RCMP not wanting to get caught out so arresting anybody who they have any level of doubt about - and then shouting about it to the world.

Of course, sometimes even the most peaceful of religions turns mean: http://www.heraldsco...ansing.20883968

EDIT:
None of which is to say that there isn't a problem with young men in particular being radicalised by Islamism and nationalism. It's my belief that you don't solve the problem by further excluding(*) them or not engaging - which seems to be the Wolford Way.
(* = which does not mean allowing beliefs to go unchallenged).

Edited by gingerjon, 23 April 2013 - 06:13 AM.

Cheer up, RL is actually rather good
- Severus, July 2012

#45 Methven Hornet

Methven Hornet
  • Coach
  • 9,421 posts

Posted 23 April 2013 - 02:05 PM

I'd be interested in knowing if that Canadian thing has any real substance to it. It could just be the RCMP not wanting to get caught out so arresting anybody who they have any level of doubt about - and then shouting about it to the world.

Of course, sometimes even the most peaceful of religions turns mean: http://www.heraldsco...ansing.20883968

EDIT:
None of which is to say that there isn't a problem with young men in particular being radicalised by Islamism and nationalism. It's my belief that you don't solve the problem by further excluding(*) them or not engaging - which seems to be the Wolford Way.
(* = which does not mean allowing beliefs to go unchallenged).

 

Could you just give a brief explanation of the link. I'm on a quota of Herald articles per month, and I want to keep them for 'important' matters. :)


"There are now more pandas in Scotland than Tory MPs."

#46 gingerjon

gingerjon
  • Coach
  • 28,392 posts

Posted 23 April 2013 - 03:59 PM

Could you just give a brief explanation of the link. I'm on a quota of Herald articles per month, and I want to keep them for 'important' matters. :)

 

Buddhist ethnic cleansing of Muslims in Burma.


Cheer up, RL is actually rather good
- Severus, July 2012

#47 Northern Sol

Northern Sol
  • Moderator
  • 16,595 posts

Posted 23 April 2013 - 06:29 PM

I'd be interested in knowing if that Canadian thing has any real substance to it. It could just be the RCMP not wanting to get caught out so arresting anybody who they have any level of doubt about - and then shouting about it to the world.

Of course, sometimes even the most peaceful of religions turns mean: http://www.heraldsco...ansing.20883968

EDIT:
None of which is to say that there isn't a problem with young men in particular being radicalised by Islamism and nationalism. It's my belief that you don't solve the problem by further excluding(*) them or not engaging - which seems to be the Wolford Way.
(* = which does not mean allowing beliefs to go unchallenged).

Oh I grant you that no religion, even Buddhism (also have a look at monks' involvement in the Sri Lankan conflict) is "clean" but Islam is a lot worse than any other religion around today.

 

I don't think excluding people is the way to go but we should exclude ideologies. If Islamism is responsible for promoting terrorism (and I think it is undeniable) then why should be far more cautious of Islamic organisations e.g. schools than we currently are.



#48 Northern Sol

Northern Sol
  • Moderator
  • 16,595 posts

Posted 23 April 2013 - 06:31 PM

Buddhist ethnic cleansing of Muslims in Burma.

IIRC that particular variety of Muslim are recent arrivals in Burma. Not that it makes them fair game, I'm just putting a bit of context.



#49 JohnM

JohnM
  • Coach
  • 19,162 posts

Posted 23 April 2013 - 07:21 PM

Didn't our police stand by and do nothing during our own recent spell of rioting and looting?

#50 Northern Sol

Northern Sol
  • Moderator
  • 16,595 posts

Posted 23 April 2013 - 07:34 PM

Didn't our police stand by and do nothing during our own recent spell of rioting and looting?

How does that relate to anything in this thread?



#51 JohnM

JohnM
  • Coach
  • 19,162 posts

Posted 23 April 2013 - 08:03 PM

GJ's earlier post about Burma?

#52 Northern Sol

Northern Sol
  • Moderator
  • 16,595 posts

Posted 23 April 2013 - 08:12 PM

GJ's earlier post about Burma?

Did left-wing rioters engage in ethnic cleansing of economic migrants while the police stood idly by?



#53 Wolford6

Wolford6
  • Coach
  • 9,259 posts

Posted 23 April 2013 - 11:10 PM

Our officialdom has soft-pedalled on Islam for years. Despite all suspicion to the contrary, we've been given overall statistics that class them within an overall Ethnic Asian grouping, camouflaging any discrete difference between ethnic Hindus, Sikhs, Moslems, Buddhists, Christians, Chinese,Pakistan, Turkey, India, Bangladesh, Somalia etc.

To most westerners, the perceived indication is that the traditional muslim religious and social preference is not to class its adherents within such an overall grouping ... it regards everyone else as unbelievers of lower status.

If the muslim establishment doesn't integrate, it is entirely reasonable for the UK government to appraise and report the performance of muslim citizens in direct comparison with those of all ethnic groupings ... crime rate, educational achievement, employment rate, average state benefit claim, handicapped-child frequency, size of family, terrorist support, domestic abuse, forced marriage, vote-rigging, motoring offences, drug offences, proportion of population, net cost to the state per person etc. I'm pretty sure that other ethnic groupings would be happy to stand the comparison. In effect, my own community in Wales already has this,as its statistics are collated and quoted as a distinct entity for comparison with the contemporary findings for the English, Scottish and Northern Irish communities. I'm happy with this.

Sooner or later, someone has got to present these figures on the basis of ethnic sub-groupings. I suspect that the government does not wish to publicise them because it does not wish to promote even more dissociated schism between the Moslems and other societal ethnic groupings. People like me,who conjecture about whether such factors are overwhelmingly negative (and attract opprobrium from the Guardianistas on this board), could easily be refuted if disproving statistics were available. If my impressions are wrong, I'll gladly apologise.

However, why aren't such objective and obtainable statistics made available?


Ultimately, Great Britain is going through a recession and is about to have a load of low-quality "workers" dumped on it by EU-authorised economic migration. We already haven't got enough jobs for ethnic Britons so it's likely that a significant proportion of the Eastern European migrants will end up just claiming benefits.
Seeing as we are powerless to stop this immigration, we must do everything in our power to prevent an influx of similar deadweight immigrants from non-EU states who also have little chance of offering a nett contribution to our GDP.

Ultimately, in the city where I live, even after sixty years, we've two distinct societies ... and the whites, Afro-Caribbeans, Hindus and Sikhs are all effectively in the same one of those societal groups.
If the UK muslim social groupings knew that non-EU immigration was suspended until a greater degree of integration and achievement was established and confirmed by statistics, perhaps an impetus towards improved "performance" could be promoted.

I am certainly not saying that the "standard" muslim family grouping that is currently resident in Britain will harbour terrorist sympathies. However, it is far more likely to harbour terrorists than immigrant family groupings from other religions. if that same standard muslim family grouping offers little or nothing to the profitability of the country, then , for financial social and security reasons, why bother letting any more of the same in?

Edited by Wolford6, 24 April 2013 - 07:33 AM.

Under Scrutiny by the Right-On Thought Police


#54 gingerjon

gingerjon
  • Coach
  • 28,392 posts

Posted 24 April 2013 - 06:48 AM

Our officialdom has soft-pedalled on Islam for years. Despite all suspicion to the contrary, we've been given overall statistics that class them within an overall Ethnic Asian grouping, camouflaging any discrete difference between Hindus, Sikhs, Moslems, Buddhists, Christians, Chinese,Pakistan, Turkey, India, Bangladesh, Somalia etc.

To most westerners, the perceived indication is that the traditional muslim religious and social preference is not to class its adherents within such an overall grouping ... it regards everyone else as unbelievers of lower status.

If the muslim establishment doesn't integrate, it is entirely reasonable for the UK government to appraise and report the performance of muslim citizens in direct comparison with those of all ethnic groupings ... crime rate, educational achievement, employment rate, average state benefit claim, handicapped-child frequency, size of family, terrorist support, domestic abuse, forced marriage, vote-rigging, motoring offences, drug offences, proportion of population, net cost to the state per person etc. I'm pretty sure that other ethnic groupings would be happy to stand the comparison.

Sooner or later, someone has got to present these figures. I suspect that the government does not wish to publicise them because it does not wish to promote even more dissociated schism between the Moslems and other societal ethnic groupings. People like me,who conjecture about whether such factors are overwhelmingly negative (and attract opprobrium from the Guardianistas on this board), could easily be refuted if disproving statistics were available. If my impressions are wrong, I'll gladly apologise.

However, why aren't such objective and obtainable statistics made available?


Ultimately, Great Britain is going through a recession and is about to have a load of low-quality "workers" dumped on it by EU authorised economic migration. We already haven't got enough jobs for ethnic Britons so it's likely that a significant proportion of the Eastern European migrants will end up just claiming benefits.
Seeing as we are powerless to stop this immigration, we must do everything in our power to prevent an influx of similar deadweight immigrants from non-EU states who also have little chance of offering a nett contribution to our GDP.

Ultimately, in the city where I live, even after sixty years, we've two distinct societies ... and the whites, Afro-Caribbeans, Hindus and Sikhs are all effectively in the same one of those societal groups.
If the UK muslim social groupings knew that non-EU immigration was suspended until a greater degree of integration and achievement was established and confirmed by statistics, perhaps an impetus towards improved "performance" could be promoted.

I am certainly not saying that the "standard" muslim family grouping that is currently resident in Britain will harbour terrorist sympathies. However, it is far more likely to harbour terrorists than immigrant family groupings from other religions. if that same standard muslim family grouping offers little or nothing to the profitability of the country, then , for financial social and security reasons, why bother letting any more of the same in?

 

The UK is safer now than it's ever been, apparently.


Cheer up, RL is actually rather good
- Severus, July 2012

#55 Wolford6

Wolford6
  • Coach
  • 9,259 posts

Posted 24 April 2013 - 08:49 AM

The UK is safer now than it's ever been, apparently.

 

 

That only relates to murder.

 

We get gun crime/possession reported most weeks in the Bradford Telegraph and Argus.


Under Scrutiny by the Right-On Thought Police


#56 gingerjon

gingerjon
  • Coach
  • 28,392 posts

Posted 24 April 2013 - 08:54 AM

That only relates to murder.

 

We get gun crime/possession reported most weeks in the Bradford Telegraph and Argus.

 

The study relates to murder and experience of violent crime.

 

Even the Bucks Examiner gets murders to report about.  Just proportionally fewer than it would have 10 years ago.


Cheer up, RL is actually rather good
- Severus, July 2012

#57 gingerjon

gingerjon
  • Coach
  • 28,392 posts

Posted 24 April 2013 - 08:55 AM

IIRC that particular variety of Muslim are recent arrivals in Burma. Not that it makes them fair game, I'm just putting a bit of context.

 

That's possible.  I haven't read that much about it.  There seems to be a desire that Burma be welcomed back into the fold and to ignore stuff like this so it doesn't seem to be getting much coverage, relatively speaking.


Cheer up, RL is actually rather good
- Severus, July 2012

#58 Wolford6

Wolford6
  • Coach
  • 9,259 posts

Posted 24 April 2013 - 09:15 AM

The study relates to murder and experience of violent crime.

 

Even the Bucks Examiner gets murders to report about.  Just proportionally fewer than it would have 10 years ago.

Here's a story from today's T&A paper.The headline is about a police raid on suspected perpetrators of insurance fraud. It only mentions incidentally that weapons were discovered in the possession of those arrested.

That gives an indication of how often gun and knife crime is almost-routinely reported nowadays.

 

 

http://www.thetelegr..._police/?ref=mr


Under Scrutiny by the Right-On Thought Police


#59 ckn

ckn
  • Admin
  • 15,970 posts

Posted 24 April 2013 - 09:16 AM

Well, this thread is spectacularly off-topic...

 

Here's a Daily Mail article on internet warriors getting it spectacularly wrong and why they should never be allowed to post anything but pictures of kittens.  Never believe what you read on the internet.


Arguing with the forum trolls is like playing chess with a pigeon.  No matter how good you are, the bird will **** on the board and strut around like it won anyway


#60 gingerjon

gingerjon
  • Coach
  • 28,392 posts

Posted 24 April 2013 - 10:01 AM

Here's a story from today's T&A paper.The headline is about a police raid on suspected perpetrators of insurance fraud. It only mentions incidentally that weapons were discovered in the possession of those arrested.

That gives an indication of how often gun and knife crime is almost-routinely reported nowadays.

 

 

http://www.thetelegr..._police/?ref=mr

 

And does this story indicate whether there is more violent crime, less violent crime, or  the same level of violent crime than 10 years ago?

 

As a wag on twitter put it, "New study shows violent crime has fallen everywhere except in the Daily Mail."


Cheer up, RL is actually rather good
- Severus, July 2012




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users