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Clubs aiming beyond their capabilities


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#61 The Parksider

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 12:59 PM

I think these proposals are ludicrous.
 
Currently the two Hull clubs pull in about 19,000 spectators between them. If one went to the wall there is no way the other would pull in 19,000.
 
Widnes and Warrington pull in about 16 to 17,000 between them. If one went to the wall the remaining club would not average that number
 
The calder trio pull in 16 to 17,000 between them. If two went to the wall, there is no way the remaining club would average that number

I've checked with our agent and he hasn't got us any bookings as the "Poison Brothers" I'll let you know if any come in.

Could you deal with this (kiss) point (hug) for me.

When clubs pull in more fans than they need they make a profit. When they pull in less than they need they make a loss.

So If in Hull the Rovers are out of SL pulling as low as 1,000 fans then of course Hull would not pick up the other 7,000 Rovers fans. They would stay at home.

But Hull did climb to 13,000 fans without Rovers input and they would make a profit and thrive at that. Of course 14,000 is less than the 19,000 and of course 5,000 RL fans end up sitting at home.

I'm sure your a businessman, and will understand the trick is to make a profit, not a loss and it's not just about one side of the coin i.e. fan numbers.

It's 17,000 fans who won't watch one club that means Calder is a mess. However if 12,000 will watch Wakefield only then they'll turn a profit and have bigger crowds than Wire and can compete.

5,000 lost fans but a more profitable and competitive game in Calder.

Flip that coin brother, there's another side to it (kisses and hugs all round)

#62 Dave T

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 01:10 PM

Which do people think would be better:

 

20 teams with 6k

10 teams with 10k



#63 keighley

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 01:44 PM

 

I've checked with our agent and he hasn't got us any bookings as the "Poison Brothers" I'll let you know if any come in.

Could you deal with this (kiss) point (hug) for me.

When clubs pull in more fans than they need they make a profit. When they pull in less than they need they make a loss.

So If in Hull the Rovers are out of SL pulling as low as 1,000 fans then of course Hull would not pick up the other 7,000 Rovers fans. They would stay at home.

But Hull did climb to 13,000 fans without Rovers input and they would make a profit and thrive at that. Of course 14,000 is less than the 19,000 and of course 5,000 RL fans end up sitting at home.

I'm sure your a businessman, and will understand the trick is to make a profit, not a loss and it's not just about one side of the coin i.e. fan numbers.

It's 17,000 fans who won't watch one club that means Calder is a mess. However if 12,000 will watch Wakefield only then they'll turn a profit and have bigger crowds than Wire and can compete.

5,000 lost fans but a more profitable and competitive game in Calder.

Flip that coin brother, there's another side to it (kisses and hugs all round)

 

What you are saying is correct but it is a micro rather than a macro view. Our game is sometimes derided as being a minor sport. Contract the number of teams and diminish the number of spectators as will be the result, and the game will become an even more minor sport.

There is also a knock on effect on support for the national team from the loss of club spectators and we all agree how important international competition is.

I am not against RL teams averaging 15,000 or even 20,000 but it should be achieved on each clubs individual efforts and not piggy backed on the graves of existing clubs and the diminution of the fan numbers.

I don't think Sky would be too happy either when they see some 10,000 or more subscribers cancel and their revenues and viewing numbers dimisnish as a result.

As John Donne famously said " No man is an Island" and neither is any club. If you diminsh the whole, you might think you are strengthening the constituent parts, but, in fact, in the long run, the result will be a weakening of the whole.

Far better to get more teams into a competiton sustainable on current realities and expand the reach and attractiveness of the whole game and, breath it softly, even expand the size of the top league. There is strength in numbers and even top their soccer acknowledges that.


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#64 keighley

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 01:53 PM

 

Which do people think would be better:
 
20 teams with 6k
10 teams with 10k

 

10 teams with 10 k, 20 teams with 6k and twin conferences incorporating both and operating under a slary cap that would make all sustainable even if it meant a levy on the top few to support the bottom echelon.

A bigger better spead of clubs is better than a small rump. There is more opportunity for all to make the playoffs and ramp up wider interest in the game rather tha a revolving door of three or four dominating a small concentrated competition.

#65 The Parksider

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 02:16 PM

1. What you are saying is correct

2. Contract the number of teams and diminish the number of spectators as will be the result, and the game will become an even more minor sport.

1. Thank you Brother.

2. I appreciate the point. So does Peacock. If your right either way we lose.

(This two line reply is dedicated to Hindle X111)

damn... it's now three lines, er no four?

#66 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 02:47 PM

Im a football fan and went to watch Oldham on Tuesday night in a game the team needed to win to avoid relegation. It was a great game to be at because it mattered to all 3,800 latics fans in the ground, P&R is the Only way forward. There is a reason it happens in every sport in this country, It even happens in Cricket now.

Yes you get literally dozens of people turning up for county cricket games

One if the main reasons all the versions of cricket such as 20/20 exist is because of county cricket is unsustainable

Yet again if you check there is no history of dramatic end of season relegation epics occurring in any meaningful numbers and even when they have in rugby league their effect on attendances is almost always minimal
Yet again: this compares badly to the negative effect of other aspect of prom and reg in rugby league
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#67 gazza77

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 03:23 PM

Reading some of the posts on this forum at times, I sometimes think that some of the posters are trying to think beyond their capabilities. :dry:


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#68 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 03:30 PM

Reading some of the posts on this forum at times, I sometimes think that some of the posters are trying to think beyond their capabilities. <_<

 

 

Reading some of the posts on this forum at times, I sometimes think that some of the posters are trying to think beyond their capabilities. <_<

sorry mate, one can only do one's best. :lol:


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#69 red dwarf

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 04:31 PM

Yes you get literally dozens of people turning up for county cricket games

One if the main reasons all the versions of cricket such as 20/20 exist is because of county cricket is unsustainable

Yet again if you check there is no history of dramatic end of season relegation epics occurring in any meaningful numbers and even when they have in rugby league their effect on attendances is almost always minimal
Yet again: this compares badly to the negative effect of other aspect of prom and reg in rugby league

 

Yes you get literally dozens of people turning up for county cricket games

One if the main reasons all the versions of cricket such as 20/20 exist is because of county cricket is unsustainable

Yet again if you check there is no history of dramatic end of season relegation epics occurring in any meaningful numbers and even when they have in rugby league their effect on attendances is almost always minimal
Yet again: this compares badly to the negative effect of other aspect of prom and reg in rugby league

 

So your solution to the apathy of a declining number of supporters at matches is ?



#70 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 06:07 PM

So your solution to the apathy of a declining number of supporters at matches is ?

 

 

So your solution to the apathy of a declining number of supporters at matches is ?

 

there is no trend of decline

 

but

 

a successful, well supported world cup would be nice-although for some bizarre reason supporters of at least one club actively oppose it.

 

An end to the recession

 

the rise and rise of clubs like Bradford salford and wakefield, who have had bad experiences that some people have gloated about, yet those same people have seen to have gone quiet about in the light of their bouncing back

 

a serious thoroughgoing examination of what is going on at London Broncos. The potential is massive, the game is established in the South east yet the club is massively under achieving.

 

a broadening of the competitiveness of Super League so that more clubs are capable of making a major impact. relegating one club and replacing it with a weaker one: the farce/joke/ laughing stock of Leigh replacing Castleford for instance several years ago demeans the competition rather than enhances it. If Featherstone for instance were to replace castleford-currently SL's weakest team, would they do any better-assuming they would be relegated immediately  as the period of grace that Widnes for instance enjoy, would be abandoned on principle. If not then it would be futile, expensive and quite possibly have catastrophic ramifications for both clubs.

 

and the acquisition of a credible main sponsor for the sport's flagship competition. Even in the previously mentioned recession this should not be beyond the capabilities of those who are employed to achieve this.

 

Do you seriously believe that bringing back a discredited structure to the professional game is the panacea that it needs? In itself risible, but also self serving and also the idea that one element will bring the game into some sunny carefree upland is untenable.

 

Super League is not a 'division' within a competition, it is a competition in itself. The championship is a competition with two divisions.

 

Again there is no downward trend in attendances.


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#71 Ponterover

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 06:24 PM

Which would give us a give us a team in Wakefield watched by a few thousand fans, a team in Cas watched by a few thousand fans, a team in Fev watched by a few thousand fans and the new Super Club watched by NO fans because they'll be spending their money watching THEIR team in Wakey, Cas or Fev.

Great post, why can't the merger mob get this into their thick skulls?

I will admit that there have been times when I have thought about the idea of an over arching "super" club with the three as feeders, but as you say, no one would watch it.

Edited by Ponterover, 18 April 2013 - 06:26 PM.


#72 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 06:36 PM

Great post, why can't the merger mob get this into their thick skulls?

I will admit that there have been times when I have thought about the idea of an over arching "super" club with the three as feeders, but as you say, no one would watch it.

 

 

Great post, why can't the merger mob get this into their thick skulls?

I will admit that there have been times when I have thought about the idea of an over arching "super" club with the three as feeders, but as you say, no one would watch it.

the 'merger mob' are neither a mob or thick. They just don't see things the way you do.

 

I doubt whether a merger would work, certainly not over the short or medium term for reasons I've given-I'd appreciate your views on those reasons, but that doesn't make it a bad idea necessarily.


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#73 statties

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 06:42 PM

So not all sports then... in fact hardly any.

 

 

Of course clubs have folded (although mainly not when they are in the top flight) however, I can't think of many other sports other than the few Statties had quoted where clubs have merged to stay in the top flight. Can you?

 

Well I named seven sports. Can you name me the same number of team sports (and you can include football) with higher attended leagues than the ones I recalled? Doubt you can even come up with the second.

 

If you want to dismiss my comments, fine, that is what these forums are for.

 

My challenge to you a.n.other is to try and be objective and structure an argument rather than talking like a fifth grader



#74 statties

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 06:46 PM

Great post, why can't the merger mob get this into their thick skulls?

I will admit that there have been times when I have thought about the idea of an over arching "super" club with the three as feeders, but as you say, no one would watch it.

 

Then I would put my eggs into one basket and give them the support and resources they need to grow as a club and build stronger community links. Whatever it is, the area can only sustain one SL club. 



#75 a.n Other

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 06:47 PM

Well I named seven sports. Can you name me the same number of team sports (and you can include football) with higher attended leagues than the ones I recalled? Doubt you can even come up with the second.

 

If you want to dismiss my comments, fine, that is what these forums are for.

 

My challenge to you a.n.other is to try and be objective and structure an argument rather than talking like a fifth grader

 

 

 

And your challenge would be not to post pie in the sky ideas and back them up with stats about leagues that have no relvence to the game in this country. If you think mergers are the way forward, then fine, you imo are wrong, but you of course are entitled to your opinion.


Edited by a.n Other, 18 April 2013 - 06:49 PM.


#76 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 07:00 PM

And your challenge would be not to post pie in the sky ideas and back them up with stats about leagues that have no relvence to the game in this country. If you think mergers are the way forward, then fine, you imo are wrong, but you of course are entitled to your opinion.

that's a fair point

 

but for the very reasons you give, ideas about mergers in uk rugby league not working are pie in the sky with no stats to back them up. Although for the record Featherstone Rovers are the result of a merger, but the situation was more fluid then.


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#77 JohnM

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 07:50 PM

Great post, why can't the merger mob get this into their thick skulls?

I will admit that there have been times when I have thought about the idea of an over arching "super" club with the three as feeders, but as you say, no one would watch it.

 Well, now. no one actually knows if that is true or not. It might be,...or again, it might not be.

 

One possibility is that the ticket-buying fans might mount some sort of protest that generates a rise in gates at the affected clubs. Another might be a boycott of a merged team  that results in reduced gate.  Both of these effects might be temporary or permanent.  They might be temporary as older fans  take the most permanent red card of all, only to be replaced by a new generation of 21st century fans.

 

I do think, though that the current situation of Fev, Wakie and Cas ( for example) supports my belief that the support, finance, playing strength and management  of those clubs has not reached critical mass and so there is no chain reaction strong enough to support  two out of three at SL level, never mind three out of three.

 

I reckon there is though, enough to support ONE SL club in that area that could compete with Wigan, Leeds, Bradford, Saints, Wire etc. I'm not suggesting a deliberate move in that direction, though. It may be  that Wakefield currently the strongest of the three,  takes on the mantle at the expense of Cas and Fev. Or it may be of course that circumstances  force the issue.


Edited by JohnM, 18 April 2013 - 07:51 PM.


#78 statties

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 08:34 PM

And your challenge would be not to post pie in the sky ideas and back them up with stats about leagues that have no relvence to the game in this country. If you think mergers are the way forward, then fine, you imo are wrong, but you of course are entitled to your opinion.

 

ok, well I fell into the trap of arguing and that is my fault as this is an opinion piece which all are entitled. As new to this forum thing, I need to work on that. 

 

I do feel that spectator sport is part of the entertainment industry and that overseas developments are relevant here.

 

Back to my opinion, the region can only sustain 1 SL club and SLE need to act on this. I never mentioned merger to star with, I mentioned a new club where the three existing clubs are stakeholders. This will give fans of all three a SL club to support.

 

If the existing clubs and fans wish to fight for that single place, then so be it, but there will be more people disappointed than in my original idea and ultimately a longer route to success for the lucky club selected.



#79 The Parksider

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 09:21 PM

1. As new to this forum thing, I need to work on that. 
 
2. Back to my opinion, the region can only sustain 1 SL club and SLE need to act on this.

3. If the existing clubs and fans wish to fight for that single place, then so be it, but there will be more people disappointed than in my original idea and ultimately a longer route to success for the lucky club selected.

1. Your doing great. You need to work on nothing. Some of the old heads on here need to work on their manners.

2. "act"!!!! You assume the RFL/SLE are passive??

3. Oh I agree 100% that a fight to the death (a Padge quote, watch out for that guy) may be "ultimately a longer route to success for the lucky club"

But this is the era of licensing and format re-jigging. Fev only have a right to an SL place if SL remain at 14 clubs and a 10 club SL is likely to reject anyone skint playing out of a ground with few seats but plenty of asbestos cement cladding.

They're not passive, they're conniving......

Edited by The Parksider, 18 April 2013 - 09:22 PM.


#80 red dwarf

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 09:27 PM

there is no trend of decline

 

but

 

a successful, well supported world cup would be nice-although for some bizarre reason supporters of at least one club actively oppose it.

 

An end to the recession

 

the rise and rise of clubs like Bradford salford and wakefield, who have had bad experiences that some people have gloated about, yet those same people have seen to have gone quiet about in the light of their bouncing back

 

a serious thoroughgoing examination of what is going on at London Broncos. The potential is massive, the game is established in the South east yet the club is massively under achieving.

 

a broadening of the competitiveness of Super League so that more clubs are capable of making a major impact. relegating one club and replacing it with a weaker one: the farce/joke/ laughing stock of Leigh replacing Castleford for instance several years ago demeans the competition rather than enhances it. If Featherstone for instance were to replace castleford-currently SL's weakest team, would they do any better-assuming they would be relegated immediately  as the period of grace that Widnes for instance enjoy, would be abandoned on principle. If not then it would be futile, expensive and quite possibly have catastrophic ramifications for both clubs.

 

and the acquisition of a credible main sponsor for the sport's flagship competition. Even in the previously mentioned recession this should not be beyond the capabilities of those who are employed to achieve this.

 

Do you seriously believe that bringing back a discredited structure to the professional game is the panacea that it needs? In itself risible, but also self serving and also the idea that one element will bring the game into some sunny carefree upland is untenable.

 

Super League is not a 'division' within a competition, it is a competition in itself. The championship is a competition with two divisions.

 

Again there is no downward trend in attendances.

Where have I suggested a return to P and R ?

 

There is a definate decline in the Championship , and one in SL if you look at recent figures , partly without doubt due to the reccession , but also a lack of intensity






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