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Calder, it is time?


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#261 Terry Mullaney

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 08:59 PM


He's a tiny child! He's utterly immune to the commercial aspects of professional sport and of course should be.


But could probably still come up with a business plan as credible as yours for this ludicrous idea I'd expect. So come on let's have it down on here how you'd do it

Edited by Terry Mullaney, 23 April 2013 - 09:05 PM.

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#262 oldrover

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 09:32 PM

you can all stop wasting your time. superleague is on it;s way out. not many bridges left to burn now.


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#263 The Parksider

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 09:34 PM

It does not seem to me to be likely that under current conditions any of the three would initiate a merger, especially as Fev have SL ambitions. I can actually imagine them getting one, too. However, I cannot see them being sustainably successful enough to stay there for long. But during that there years, they could well damage Cas and Wakey as they attract those Fev fans who like SL.

I can also see a situation where say Cas became the dominant team...or Wakey.

All this competition may be good for diehard fans, but it is 'internal' and won't help any of the three compete with Leeds, Saints, Wigan, Wire, Bradford etc. Thus in my view the current situation is not in the best long-term interests of those clubs or the game.

If they we're to grasp the metal now, there is hope...after the turf wars. Don't think that will happen, so yes, I think I agree...after a huge waste of fans and directors money, some years down the line, Wakey will come out on top.

Can't disagree with any of that except the end bit.

If SL reduces 2015 the promise of a CC club going up is cancelled, and Wakefield may be in their new stadium by then. Some years down the line?? There's a very good chance that will be 18 months.

#264 DeadShotKeen

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 09:40 PM

I don't think any of us can really learn anything without first opening our minds to new information and points of view. I've read this thread and I've seen people advocate the merger of three clubs and witnessed them rebuff without reasoning any counter argument. I think the point that I was trying to get across in my earlier post is that this is not one common market of fans that the clubs are fighting over. There are of course small pockets where I suppose in the Normanton/Altofts area a case could be made for this being the case on a three way split, but that is only one part of Wakefield MDC, and as I have stated previously Wakefield MDC doesn't have a shared identity whatsoever. Perhaps there should be a new club in Normanton. It's bigger than Featherstone and smaller than Castleford if you're wondering, sounds like a winner?
 
People from Cas are more likely to identify with Leeds than Wakefield, as are people from Wakefield in preference to Castleford. The Calder region simply doesn't exist, other than in the minds of those that promised untold riches at the advent of Superleague. Those using the region as the basis for their arguments are seriously undermined by the physical and cultural geography of Wakefield, Castleford, Featherstone and the surrounding towns and cities. Transport links between the three conurbations where the clubs are not great, and as stated before so any joint venture would have to overcome this. Belle Vue sits on the very east of Wakefield, the side where both Cas and Featherstone are, and yet draws no support from Featherstone or Castleford, although it does draw healthy support from Crofton/Hemsworth and Normanton.
 
Wakefield are now approaching crowds of 8000 on a regular basis for the first time in my lifetime, and with tangible progress being made towards a new stadium it's conceivable that they could emulate the success we have all enjoyed seeing Warrington achieve. Wakefield is out gunning neighbour Huddersfield crowd wise who have had years of significant investment from Ken Davey, sit in a big modern stadium and have reached two challenge cup finals in recent years. 
 
Whether your imagined district could support more than one superleague is one for debate, but I'd fancy that Wakefield alone is big enough to do so alone. I can't speak for Castleford or Featherstone with any certainty, but if Wakefield could get the same proportion of locals attending games as Castleford and Featherstone do they will be a very well supported club indeed. I think your quesiton needs to be rephrased though. Can each team (regardless of where they are, Wakefield, Wakefield MDC, West Yorkshire, London, Greater Manchester, Cumbria) support a superleague side? To pick out the three in the imagined Calder region is lazy, tiresome and unsporting.
 
I've always wanted to support a contender, just so long as that contender was my team, and it's never stopped me supporting my side regardless of their standing. If we all supported Wigan because of their dominance in the 80s and 90s where would that leave us? Only one team can win the league each year, so all the others have failed. That's a tough pill to swallow, somebody always comes last, even if you reduce the league, there will always be a winner, and many many more losers. If you haven't done so already, I suggest you visit Belle Vue for a big game and sample the atmosphere now that the ground improvements have been made, and then tell the world that Wakefield haven't got a chance.
 
Sport is broadly cyclical, Trinity seem to be on the way up, Castleford look to be struggling at the moment, and people in Featherstone seem very happy with their progress. One thing is for certain, things don't remain constant in sport and Castleford may well have their day again soon. Perhaps it'd be more convenient to the argument that you and others keep making if Trinity fans were to stick the boot in to Castleford. There's no need to do that, it's a tough sport, and it's a sport I love. Less is not more.
 
So in summary, I think the barriers to creating a regional team for a wholly fictitious region cannot be overcome, however I respect your right to different opinion. I do however get frustrated at the constant drum beating that the three clubs should merge, from people who should know better, but haven't taken the time to find out either about the geography of the different areas involved or the identity of communities therein.
 
*Correction to earlier post. Xscape is being marketed as “Xscape Yorkshire” these days, but it was “Xscape Leeds” on their website the last time I looked before this evening.

Some good points here.

The one thing I take exception to though is your idea that sporting success is cyclical. This was probably largely true until about the mid 80s. Now investment and support base are so important in this commercial and TV age that we simply can't turn a blind eye to the huge gulfs in these areas that were less a problem and more of a quirky bit of fun prior to this period. You say Wakey have 8K or so fans and I agree. So do my team Hull KR. But as long as Leeds regularly attract 18K, Wigan 16K and Saints 15K, this gap represents a massive problem. For sure, some of the gap could be bridged by a run of form or good luck or whatever as the figures move either way on the back of the odd good or bad season but realistically, by how much? It's hard to conceive that either Wakey or Hull KR will ever be near enough to those behemoths to be genuine, long-term contenders and this is an obstacle that needs to be overcome. Currently, benefactors only want to invest in those popular, successful RL "brands" or - in the case of Dr Koukash - ones with a bigger obvious upside. Similarly, "A list" players only want to play for these same sides. Differences of culture, difficult transport links, whatever - we simply need more behemoth brands that will either attract instant investment or at the very least, long-term belief that they can work. You seem to be offering the past as a reason why clubs like Wakey have a bright future. This is very noble and I would say in your case also very genuine. Instinctively, though, I have to think that you're wrong and I have the NRL and all of the US sporting leagues (in direct comparison with the Euro soccer leagues etc.) to back me up. Whereas you have....faith. Whatever the rights and wrongs, practicalities and impracticalities, we know what a modern, restructured league looks like. Whereas I honestly think yours is the bigger gamble anyway as it leads us to who knows where.

Edited by DeadShotKeen, 24 April 2013 - 11:32 AM.


#265 DeadShotKeen

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 09:48 PM

CALDER WOULD NEVER WORK get it into your heads. It was suggested when SL first came on the scene and look what happened then. No person who supports Cas Fev and wakey want it so its dead in the water before it starts.

This is where you and your ilk start to lose credibility. If you think you speak for all fans of the 3 clubs you are either [a] arrogant, [b] deluded, [c] terrified, or [d] all of the above. Which isn't to suggest that a merger would be instantly popular. It's a tough pill to swallow. But it would certainly find support, and that support would grow until yours was a lone voice in the wilderness.

It is a debate, it will always be a debate and you will always have to defend it with better arguments than to angrily speak on behalf of others. This is why, as JohnM so rightly states, some kind of radical change is inevitable.

Edited by DeadShotKeen, 23 April 2013 - 09:49 PM.


#266 The Parksider

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 09:56 PM

You say Wakey have 8K or so fans and I agree. So do my team Hull KR. But as long as Leeds regularly attract 18K, Wigan 16K and Saints 15K, this gap represents a massive problem.

A massive problem??

It's Leeds 14.5K Wigan 15K Saints 14K and the salary cap helps to bridge the gap, but obviously clubs need to hit their "spend full cap" attandance targets. These have been quoted as being as little as 8K at Salford and I think Widnes. Bradford were 10K as were Wakefield.

So for a club from wakefield met to spend full cap they do not have to attain the attendances that the leaders get. This is a big point you seem to have left out and I'm surprised at that.

The effect of new stadia in RL places like Hull Saints and Warrington has been to put thousands on crowds and raise the take per head, Mr. Glover will be looking to follow that business plan and at 8,000 already it's a good bet Wakefield can get the crowds up to be able to spend full cap.

Warrington are running at about 11,000 attendances so again Glover must be hopeful Wakefield can get up to that. He needs a good team on the pitch but if Wakey are looking good it's to be hoped players will sign especially the young ones in the area of Wakefield Met.

The fans he wants aren't yesterdays fans, it's anyone he can attract from as wide an area as possible. Attendances may be up and down, but overall growth of just a couple of hundred a year would do. I doubt creating upheaval and animosity across his target audience will be in his plans.

Edited by The Parksider, 24 April 2013 - 06:03 AM.


#267 OMEGA

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 10:22 PM

I note that this "go ahead" Wakefield side you're all raving about just signed their 19 year-old Academy star as a result of the "1873 Club" - a deal that sees fans pay £2 a week to pay young players' wages.

This is all getting a bit embarrassing now isn't it?

Do we bite the bullet now or in 5 years time?

You're just making a complete fool of yourself now, before opening your mouth or typing you should do some proper research and find out the facts.

 

I'm not going to give you the answers here, you can go out and do your own leg work, alternatively you can carry on spouting ###### fueled by your ignorance while those who know what 1873 is and why its there laugh at you.



#268 thundergaz

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 10:41 PM

Double post

Edited by thundergaz, 23 April 2013 - 10:56 PM.


#269 Cutsyke Raiders

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 11:13 PM

This is where you and your ilk start to lose credibility. If you think you speak for all fans of the 3 clubs you are either [a] arrogant, [b] deluded, [c] terrified, or [d] all of the above. Which isn't to suggest that a merger would be instantly popular. It's a tough pill to swallow. But it would certainly find support, and that support would grow until yours was a lone voice in the wilderness.

It is a debate, it will always be a debate and you will always have to defend it with better arguments than to angrily speak on behalf of others. This is why, as JohnM so rightly states, some kind of radical change is inevitable.

The Calder doesn't run through Cas.

End of debate

#270 Forever Trinity

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 05:59 AM

Why is wakefields club 1873 scheme laughable and embarrassing. It's a club lottery scheme that replaced squadbuilder about 2 years ago and now has thousands of members which in turn helps finance the clubs youth structure. Most clubs have this kind of lottery, just one example is Warringtons squadbuilder. Only thing laughable on this thread are people who don't know the area and don't know what they are on about.

City Loyal just to clarify, Club 1873 as you say is a club lottery that supports the youth structure and has a weekly draw with a couple of mega draws in there. Dead Shot doesnt seem to get into the detail.

Squadbuilder is supporters who pay into an account and assist the club with signing young local talent, its not a club scheme but a fan one.

#271 The Parksider

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 06:01 AM

Carry on spouting ###### fueled by your ignorance while those who know what 1873 is and why its there laugh at you.

Ooooh steady. It's just a debate amongst RL fans.......

It would be a nice idea if an appeal to all those who run clubs and their fans in the area led to 100% agreement that all getting behind a merged club in Newmarket was a way forward to bring success to everyone involved and attract even more RL fans.

Edited by The Parksider, 24 April 2013 - 06:22 AM.


#272 JohnM

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 06:19 AM

And actually quite a good one now that Feb fans have largely accepted that is not an anti-Feb rant. Either that or they have put us on ignore.

#273 The Parksider

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 06:29 AM

And actually quite a good one now that Feb fans have largely accepted that is not an anti-Feb rant. Either that or they have put us on ignore.

Mr. Glover is as he says not a "wealthy owner" he's just a businessman doing the right things as far as I can see.

The Fev fans need to take heart from Mr. Nahaboo leading the financing of a Superleague Rovers. Newmarket is Wakefields "Ace" but it's not built yet, and a rich backer could be a trump card.

If they'd ever have wanted to pull together then flattening POR some years ago and building a central ground there or better still round the corner near Normanton would have been the way but the two clubs are too far down separate alternative business plans anyway.

As for "Fev fans" there's quite a lot post here but in recent months I find them nearly all a pleasure to debate with....

#274 Terry Mullaney

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 08:32 AM

And actually quite a good one now that Feb fans have largely accepted that is not an anti-Feb rant. Either that or they have put us on ignore.

I don't know many Feb fans at all. Much prefer the warmer months myself. If you mean Fev fans John, well they're no different to most others except perhaps a little more enthusiastic and fiercely loyal and proud of what the club is striving to achieve from purely its own resources. That's one good reason why this crazy idea has no credibility nor substance to it and never will.

I'm still waiting with interest to see any sound business plan that could propel such a venture into reality and how on earth would the clubs go about getting it past the fans in the first place? I wouldn't like to be the guy who's charged with that responsibility.

Edited by Terry Mullaney, 24 April 2013 - 09:00 AM.

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#275 Lounge Room Lizard

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 10:46 AM

Why do we need a Super "Wakefield MBC" team? Is their any Guarentee it will match Wigan or Leeds both in finance or Crowds? Does it even need to do this? If the local people and Clubs dont want a "Calder" side then leave it as it is. Fev, Cas and Wakey dont need to be in Sl. They can operate as stand alone clubs that are well run and do things like they have done. If the chance of SL is there then sure they can have a try. But this silly view that Fev, Cas and Wakey should look to create some mythical Super Club that can be stronger than Leeds is a joke. Whilst the fans of the clubs on here and other forums, do not represent all, I would say they speak for the majority. The view I see is that its not going to work in the short to mid term if at all. And people say look at the Merges in Australia. They work. No the crowds are less than the original 2 clubs, most of the time and both Wests and St.George ( Illawarra seems to be have been erased now) are hardly power clubs and are most years fighting to get in the top 8. Its also pretty dumb to compare Super Market Mergers with Pro Sporting clubs that have strong emotional ties in the community. Why niot just let Wakefield, Cas and Fev get on with it. If there is a time for them to merge sometime in the future, thats up to them. Meanwhile except that Wakefield, cas and fev are stand alone clubs who want to do things their way.



#276 DeadShotKeen

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 11:40 AM

Why do we need a Super "Wakefield MBC" team? Is their any Guarentee it will match Wigan or Leeds both in finance or Crowds? Does it even need to do this? If the local people and Clubs dont want a "Calder" side then leave it as it is. Fev, Cas and Wakey dont need to be in Sl. They can operate as stand alone clubs that are well run and do things like they have done. If the chance of SL is there then sure they can have a try. But this silly view that Fev, Cas and Wakey should look to create some mythical Super Club that can be stronger than Leeds is a joke. Whilst the fans of the clubs on here and other forums, do not represent all, I would say they speak for the majority. The view I see is that its not going to work in the short to mid term if at all. And people say look at the Merges in Australia. They work. No the crowds are less than the original 2 clubs, most of the time and both Wests and St.George ( Illawarra seems to be have been erased now) are hardly power clubs and are most years fighting to get in the top 8. Its also pretty dumb to compare Super Market Mergers with Pro Sporting clubs that have strong emotional ties in the community. Why niot just let Wakefield, Cas and Fev get on with it. If there is a time for them to merge sometime in the future, thats up to them. Meanwhile except that Wakefield, cas and fev are stand alone clubs who want to do things their way.

Here we go again.

NRL took 4 teams averaging about 10K and turned them into 2 teams averaging 16K. This made the league more competitive and freed up extra TV cash for all NRL sides. Considering it just signed a massive TV deal and tripled its salary cap, I would say these difficult decisions could now be held up to be good ones, wouldn't you? The alternative would be those 4 teams kicking around the bottom of the division ad infinitum, dragging the league down in the process. Our alternative, in other words.

As for Wests and St George-Illawarra hardly being power clubs....wow. I'll just say Benji Marshall and 2010 Grand Final winners respectively and leave it to others to decide if those clubs might currently be attractive to young generations of fans in the areas they serve and represent.

Edited by DeadShotKeen, 24 April 2013 - 11:43 AM.


#277 DeadShotKeen

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 11:42 AM

City Loyal just to clarify, Club 1873 as you say is a club lottery that supports the youth structure and has a weekly draw with a couple of mega draws in there. Dead Shot doesnt seem to get into the detail.

Squadbuilder is supporters who pay into an account and assist the club with signing young local talent, its not a club scheme but a fan one.

I read it on Sky Sports News' internet page, the same as anyone without insider knowledge would. The only difference is that unlike them I wasn't laughing into my cornflakes whilst doing so, I was shaking my head with sadness and disillusionment.

#278 Terry Mullaney

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 12:19 PM

I was shaking my head with sadness and disillusionment.


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#279 Rioman

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 12:26 PM

I read it on Sky Sports News' internet page, the same as anyone without insider knowledge would. The only difference is that unlike them I wasn't laughing into my cornflakes whilst doing so, I was shaking my head with sadness and disillusionment.

 

Abit like the scheme at Hull KR then?   Quote  . " The Rovers Lottery is a major source of funding for our Youth and Sports Development and anyone who is a member of the Rovers Lottery is making a major contribution to the ongoing success of the Club." 



#280 keighley

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Posted 24 April 2013 - 12:44 PM

Ooooh steady. It's just a debate amongst RL fans.......

It would be a nice idea if an appeal to all those who run clubs and their fans in the area led to 100% agreement that all getting behind a merged club in Newmarket was a way forward to bring success to everyone involved and attract even more RL fans.

 

 

Have you not read the threads about the geographical dissonance associated with that idea. Have you not read the threads about the firece determination of all clubs to remain seperate entities. Why should everyone get behind Wakefield. As we stand they have an atiquated stadium whereas Fev have an upgraded modern stadium ready for action. Why niot all get behind them.

 

Wakefield look the best bet of the three to be sure long term but let that play out and let us see if that is the result. Why should the oher too just fall on their sword for the sake of wakefield.

 

I still remain unconvinced that the area cannot support two or more SL teams. Is it less populated than the St helens, Wigan area or the Warrington, Widnes urban area.? No one is suggesting that they all amalgamate., ( yet ).

 

I think the need and greed agenda of the big clubs and their sychophantic camp followers is behind all this so that they can split the Sky pie more narrowly.

 

This is all well and good for them but is counterproductive for the wider view of the health of  the game.






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