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Calder, it is time?


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#81 The Parksider

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 10:25 PM

It would certainly be beneficial for the power balance of Super League if 1 of the other historic Leeds sides had stuck around at the top end and clipped Leeds' wings a little

What? In the way that Hudgell resurrecting HKR clipped Hull's wings when they were flying at 13,000 fans with a cup win and grand final appearance under their belt.

Then Pearson came along to try to clip Rovers wings by buying their best players.

How competitive have the Hull clubs been since 2007??

#82 The Parksider

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 10:26 PM

The people who now run the club say that without the dependence on Leeds the club will die.

So "alive" is accurate.

Exactly. I didn't support the DR tie up, it was time to retire gracefully for me.

#83 red dwarf

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 10:29 PM

What? In the way that Hudgell resurrecting HKR clipped Hull's wings when they were flying at 13,000 fans with a cup win and grand final appearance under their belt.

Then Pearson came along to try to clip Rovers wings by buying their best players.

How competitive have the Hull clubs been since 2007??

Very , with each other , once again we have fans forgetting that only 2 clubs can win anything each year , and that for every win , there is a loss , you cannot rely on a winning team to build a club , you have to try harder than that



#84 The Parksider

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 10:33 PM

Very , with each other , once again we have fans forgetting that only 2 clubs can win anything each year , and that for every win , there is a loss , you cannot rely on a winning team to build a club , you have to try harder than that

Sorry, could you explain the point your making please?

#85 red dwarf

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 10:41 PM

Sorry, could you explain the point your making please?

You want everybody ' competitive ' but there is always going to be a bottom club , you search for some crazy ' nirvana ' where all clubs end up on the same points , it will not happen , and it isn't up to other lesser clubs to sacrifice themselves for the inability of SL clubs to market themselves



#86 DeadShotKeen

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 11:06 PM

Hunslet Excelsior and Hunslet Albion merged and eventually won all four cups as Hunslet.

Our success came from merging. It attracted the fans and it attracted the better players.

No you're wrong. The entire town of Hunslet turned its back on the vile new club. 5 and 6 generations down the line, angry betrayed fans still lined the streets to pelt the returning champions with rotten fruit for their disgusting betrayal of their forefathers. Despite their vast success, the club regularly played to an empty home stadium because no-one in Hunslet would watch an "invented" team.

etc. etc.

#87 DeadShotKeen

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 11:14 PM

What? In the way that Hudgell resurrecting HKR clipped Hull's wings when they were flying at 13,000 fans with a cup win and grand final appearance under their belt.

Then Pearson came along to try to clip Rovers wings by buying their best players.

How competitive have the Hull clubs been since 2007??

Missing my point. I'm saying a 2nd Leeds side would balance the league and make it more of an even contest, not that this would be good for either Leeds side or the league as a whole. It clearly wouldn't be.

Hull KR's success has undoubtedly been a good thing, up to a point. 8K fans have been unexpectedly found from an abandoned heartland team. Problem is - as Hudgell himself points out - we've hit a glass ceiling and you clearly can't build a dynamic top flight model around too many teams of this nature. The question is whether we can push on and get nearer to a 15K mark. I would say - as I repeatedly do - that there is a case to be made to support this in a town of 250K people and with a large uncontested hinterland sharing only 2 clubs, however I do accept it is a moot point.

Calder is not a moot point. It can clearly only support 1 competitive SL team.

#88 Forever Trinity

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 05:25 AM

I wish people would put this calder ###### name to bed whats it got to do with Wakefield? A river that runs through it that eminates in the pennines far to the West of the District give it a rest.

All you outsiders preaching mergers dont seem to be advocating it on your own doorsteps for some bizarre reason, as person born and bred in belle Vue Wakefield I would never watch another team other than Wakefield I would never watch a merged team as there would be no affinity, mine is is with Wakefield castleford Fev,Hemsorth Ponte etc are all part of the fabricated Wakefield District but they are all communities in themselves there is no appetite to merge.

#89 statties

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 05:59 AM

I wish people would put this calder ###### name to bed whats it got to do with Wakefield? A river that runs through it that eminates in the pennines far to the West of the District give it a rest.

All you outsiders preaching mergers dont seem to be advocating it on your own doorsteps for some bizarre reason, as person born and bred in belle Vue Wakefield I would never watch another team other than Wakefield I would never watch a merged team as there would be no affinity, mine is is with Wakefield castleford Fev,Hemsorth Ponte etc are all part of the fabricated Wakefield District but they are all communities in themselves there is no appetite to merge.

Then expect in the not too distant future for all three clubs to fight over only one Super League place available to them.

 

What a shame only the fans of one club will get to watch SL because no fans could see the reality of the business world.

 

Why are so many people unprepared to celebrate the past for what it was and now when our survival depends on it, embrace a united future. I just don't get it. Baffling. 



#90 The Parksider

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 06:18 AM

You want everybody ' competitive ' but there is always going to be a bottom club , you search for some crazy ' nirvana ' where all clubs end up on the same points , it will not happen , and it isn't up to other lesser clubs to sacrifice themselves for the inability of SL clubs to market themselves

No I just wanted you to explain yourself rather than you go down the path of calling my points such as "crazy" don't go down that path please, it won't strengthen your argument.

Of course there is "always going to be a bottom club" but you don't explain what the problem is with that. I posted the other day my point here. In the NRL you have strong clubs from top to bottom and there is always going to be a bottom club there. But the bottom club there has the wherewithall to drag themselves up off the bottom. They have the fans, the money and the players.

Examples. 2003 Halifax were the bottom club but they were totally skint, more so than Castleford. They collapsed not because they came bottom but because they had financially collapsed.

2010 Les Catalans came bottom but they had good players, juniors coming through and the finances to compete. They are currently up there with the top clubs and outgunned saints on their own ground.

Last year Widnes were bottom, but only just and we will see if they will climb up this year and be that bit better. They have the money and are building bit by bit.

There's no problem with coming bottom if the league has clubs from top to bottom that can compete. If there's clubs that cannot compete financially then that's the problem.

Would you like to deal with that? What is your point about "other lesser clubs to sacrifice themselves for the inability of SL clubs to market themselves"?

The proposition is if clubs cannot financially compete in SL then they should step down a league. the proposition is that those who do may leave open the way for the SL clubs to feed off that in terms of getting a monopoly on local fans and players.

Any lack of ability is surely the lack of ability of some clubs to find the finances to compete in SL??

#91 The Parksider

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 06:36 AM

Hull KR's success has undoubtedly been a good thing, up to a point. 8K fans have been unexpectedly found from an abandoned heartland team. Problem is - as Hudgell himself points out - we've hit a glass ceiling and you clearly can't build a dynamic top flight model around too many teams of this nature. The question is whether we can push on and get nearer to a 15K mark. I would say - as I repeatedly do - that there is a case to be made to support this in a town of 250K people and with a large uncontested hinterland sharing only 2 clubs, however I do accept it is a moot point.

Calder is not a moot point. It can clearly only support 1 competitive SL team.

The point about HKR achieving 8,000 fans is it was achieved by the input of a couple of million to get there and half a million a year to largely plod along in mid table.

I'm not "Hull bashing" another example is Huddersfield, I dread to think how many millions Mr. Davey has spent to get them to where they are.

Now do we want strong competitive stand alone clubs who can turn a profit on their turnover, rather than clubs under a glass ceiling which runs up £millions in the directors loans accounts?

The heart says it's lovely to see 7-8,000 HKR fans in full cry, but even Mr. Keighley understands that that crowd loses Mr. Hudgell half a million a year don't you.

I don't think you do, you say the point is "whether we can push on to 15,000".

I think Mr. Hudgell has answered that, and I don't understand your logic regarding this. Hull supports one of the biggest RL clubs in the game and they support a major professional Soccer team, it's a massive leap of faith to think that they could also supply 15,000 fans to Rovers.

In the right circumstances they could, If Hull FC collapsed you'd be working to 15,000 over the next 20 years.

I always thought it a bit rich to say Calder could not support two clubs but Hull can. Since you said that events haven't proved you right in Hull yet you persist?

Castleford got to over 7000 crowds and at one time had Glasshoughton to come to boost crowds.

Glover's no big money man, but he has Trinity at 8,000 crowds and newmarket can boost that.

Hull only managed a second club because a big money man came in. They are your club and I think when it comes to them your not thinking with your head with respect.

If Hull has still has the potential for two clubs then so does Calder.

#92 The Parksider

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 06:45 AM

Why are so many people unprepared to celebrate the past for what it was and now when our survival depends on it, embrace a united future. I just don't get it. Baffling.

Because their first love and the reason they bother is their club.

That's just how it is, and that's why mergers don't work very well if at all.

That's why Leeds ignored mergers and just worked on ensuring they attracted as many fans to Headingley as possible and picked up all the best local players.

The old fans won't switch, it's about picking up the new fans and it works IMHO when I stand with 150 old men pontificating about the future of Hunslet, or when in the "Wigan area" similar meetings take place about the survival of Leigh.

If the RFL/SLE want strong clubs in the Hull and Wakefield area then the process of just one one club only being given all the advantages of SL so they can slowly strangle their opposition may be engineered by the 10 or even 12 club proposal. I think Hetherington thinks this way, I think Peacocks his mouthpiece.

#93 JohnM

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 08:18 AM

I wish people would put this calder ###### name to bed whats it got to do with Wakefield? A river that runs through it that eminates in the pennines far to the West of the District give it a rest.

All you outsiders preaching mergers dont seem to be advocating it on your own doorsteps for some bizarre reason, as person born and bred in belle Vue Wakefield I would never watch another team other than Wakefield I would never watch a merged team as there would be no affinity, mine is is with Wakefield castleford Fev,Hemsorth Ponte etc are all part of the fabricated Wakefield District but they are all communities in themselves there is no appetite to merge.


A rose by any other name would smell as sweet. Calder is sort of a worked example...a discussion of issues that affect our game.

So you'd never watch a merged team? Eventually you may have no option. Better dead than red is an outdated battle cry so it is no surprise to see it being used In rugby league.

#94 Padge

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 08:33 AM

'Clader' isn't a team, its a concept.

 

'Calder' could be one of three, tow of three or three of three. The name is totally irrelevant, it could be Cabbage Patch Athletic.

 

The reality is there will only be one SL club in the future operating in that region.



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#95 Just to be clear

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 09:35 AM

How competitive have the Hull clubs been since 2007??

Just to be clear, Hull's decline coming after Hull KR were promoted is definitely not a coincidence and the cause.

But that decline coming after James Rule replaced David Plummer as chief executive, whose reign according to Adam Pearson saw investment cut in the club favour of being more profitable as a mediocre, was unable to stop interference by the board, and was forced to resign in disgrace ahead of a ban by UKAD, is definitely just a coincidence and irrelevant to that.

Hull may have been badly managed and in a city badly affected by the economic downturn, but it was all the fault of Hull KR being in Super League.

#96 The Parksider

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 10:37 AM

Just to be clear, Hull's decline coming after Hull KR were promoted is definitely not a coincidence and the cause.

But that decline coming after James Rule replaced David Plummer as chief executive, whose reign according to Adam Pearson saw investment cut in the club favour of being more profitable as a mediocre, was unable to stop interference by the board, and was forced to resign in disgrace ahead of a ban by UKAD, is definitely just a coincidence and irrelevant to that.

Hull may have been badly managed and in a city badly affected by the economic downturn, but it was all the fault of Hull KR being in Super League.

I don't understand what you are saying, you don't seem to be clear??

The debate is about Superleague clubs being so close together they end up vying for the same resources.

example - Hull FC chase the best HKR players and take a couple of good 'uns to deplete Rovers.

example - if Hull FC had been badly managed down to the Championship forever more HKR would have had a great opportunity to grow their crowds and take themselves out of debt

example - there's about a dozen quality young Hull born players, but each club only gets half of them. In Leeds they all go to Leeds in Calder they leave.

Edited by The Parksider, 20 April 2013 - 10:43 AM.


#97 keighley

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 11:31 AM

It would certainly be beneficial for the power balance of Super League if 1 of the other historic Leeds sides had stuck around at the top end and clipped Leeds' wings a little but this is really a very defeatist way of thinking. The game surely always had ambitions of 20K fans through the turnstiles and this can only happen with at most 4 SL sides in West Yorks, all well spaced out. A merged Calder team enjoying the onfield success (and none of the in-built inferiority) it's conjoined approach could bring would certainly chip away at Leeds' fan base and ultimately hopefully result in burgeoning young fanbases for both sides, gripped by the new, well-balanced rivalries in the area and thus swelling the RL ranks across the board. For this reason I'd like to see a merged Huddersfield/Halifax side also. This would give us 4 very powerful (and probably future-proof) sides of roughly equal stature in West Yorks that could help push Super League to a national and maybe even international standing. Presently the only possible outcome is tedium and financial meltdown for the sport as Leeds barely break a sweat swatting away their pauper neighbours (save for the odd decent bit of Bradford resistance maybe every 5 years or so).

 

I see where you are coming from but I don't see it happening. Leeds have a huge city to themselves from a RL point of view and can't average 20,000. Halifax/Huddersfield will never average 20,000 either and I doubt the Hull clubs could either.

 

The other leap of faith is that Toulouse or London or some future Welsh or Midlands or North east team will average 20,000. Wigan won't, Saints won't, Warrington can't ( ground capacity issues)

 

In the meantime if we currently were to proceed with the mergers you propose the game would lose the success story that is Fev, the use of the decent Halifax stadium and the undoubted loss to spectators for many years until the merged team got to, if it ever did, the 20,000 average.

 

Well meaning and apparently coherent as your proposal is, I don't think it would achieve the results you crave. I think many teams averaging 20,000 each for RL is a pipe dream fantasy.



#98 Forever Trinity

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 11:31 AM

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet. Calder is sort of a worked example...a discussion of issues that affect our game.

So you'd never watch a merged team? Eventually you may have no option. Better dead than red is an outdated battle cry so it is no surprise to see it being used In rugby league.

JohnM no I wouldnt watch a merged team maybe I am parochial in my ways but nothing in the game really stimulates me other than watching my team. If Wakefield are out of SL I will watch them in the Championship, if they die like they nearly did a couple of years ago I wouldnt go anywhere else but would would be lost to the game, I watch my team its in my blood I was born 100 yards from the ground I will not watch anyone else nor am I interested.

Thats me being totaly honest.

#99 keighley

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 11:40 AM

Then thank heavens we don't have three clubs in Leeds sharing the 15,000 all on 5,000 each and all making a big fat mega-loss.

None of them winning anything or getting near anything, and all turning off the fans until the 5,000 becomes 4,000 and so on.

 

Thank goodness we don't and a two team concept for Leeds seems to be dead. However, if we could get two teams averaging 10,000 instead of one averaging 15,000 and the derby rivalries which should get two almost 20,000 gates a season, were to be possible, i think it would have been better for the Game of RL than the present Headingley or nothing scenario that is the current reality in Leeds.

 

 

I think retreat instead of renewed efforts at expansion in the face of adversity never results in ultimate success. Ask Woolworths. Pulling in your horns and hunkering down in survival mode will only work for s short time.



#100 keighley

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 12:10 PM

So give us your solution as regards the Calder area.

It's the biggest RL area for quality players bar Wigan and Leeds

It attracts 17,000 fans to a mixture of mediocre, losing and second rate Rugby league.

Clearly if there was a winning team there there's more fans to be had??

This area has to contribute to Superleague's success, because as we all agreed without Superleague the game would be in tatters.

So please don't just say "It's B*L*S*IT". That's not an argument.

I respectfully ask you to explain your alternative for harnessing the resources the Calder area has to the advantage of the game we all love.

It's heartbreaking for fans of the game to see the area lose it's best players, see clubs go bust, and see clubs go totally skint.

There's a concensus of opinion around the idea one strong club can make it and strengthen the game.

Your a lone voice talking from the heart and not the head, and frankly I'm fed up with you doing this.

Give us your solution to turn Calder from a negative to a positive??????

 

 

Just leave them alone to sort out their own destiny. Why would you wilfully destroy teams in pursuit of a hypothesis. There is no certainty whatsoever that a one team calderdale will become the mega power you want. Manchester used to have four top level teams, Salford, Swinton, Oldham and Broughton. Three are gone for all intents and purposes and have been for over 30 years. This leaves Salford standing. Where is the mega club that they should be ? They are only around at all thanks to Mr Wilkinson and Dr Koukash and have a long long way to go to become a mega club. This one club fantasy just dosn't bear any resemblance to reality. Why are Leeds so small.? They have the whole of the city to themselves. Where are the 20,000 averages that everyone thinks will be the order of the day in Calderdale should there be only one team there.?

 

Currently Trinity are pushing for 10,000 average with new money and a probable new stadium.

 

Featherstone are strongly pushing for a SL place with increasing gates, financing and a virtual new stadium on the horizon.

 

Castleford are talkng to new investors and the track record recenlty ( Salford, Bradford, Fev, Halifax ) would suggest they might find them.

 

Let these teams pursue their own adgendas and see what happens. Some kind of RL Darwinism will weed out the weakest and you will have your desired one team solution OR two or maybe even three of the teams will adapt, mutate, and survive and the game might be much the stronger for three teams sharing 30,000 fans rather than one attracting 10 to 12,000. Twelve derbies between three successful SL teams would work wonders for the attendances.

 

Why should the RFL or whomever play God and kill off these teams for a one team strategy which is just that, unproven and speculative?

 

From where I stand, I see two thirds of the Calder teams, right now, as very positive and i wouldn't bet on Cas going down without a big fight either. Its you who assumes that the Calder area is a negative. I don't subscribe to that view at all.

 

I get tired of you shooting from the hip with these unproven theories based on guesswork but when I deal with realities on the ground, i am talking from my heart not my head.  SL teams averaging 20,000, oh my gracious, who is talking from the heart and dealing in fantasy.






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