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Rugby League World - April 2014
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Calder, it is time?


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#141 Robin Evans

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 10:47 AM

My daughter watches rovers because of me. She watches Sheffield Wednesday inspite of my protests!
I still pay for her to watch fev and shes 28! If she wanted to watch leeds she can find her own way to Headingley and happen pay for her sen!!!!
"I love our club, absolutely love it". (Overton, M 2007)

#142 DeadShotKeen

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 11:10 AM

The crucial aspect the staunch Wakey, Cas and Fev fans forget is that - without knowing a great deal about them - I'm guessing they're of a certain age and were thus born during or not long after periods of success or genuine competitiveness, back when those teams had no inferiority complex to the likes of Leeds and the other (now) big boys and games between them were a coin toss. The kids growing up in those areas now will have the same degree of local pride (of course) but Parky's hit the nail on the head - they want Super League and - more crucially - a team without such an inferiority complex. There's really no getting away from that, however passionate you are about your historic club. Parky is right that left to their own devices these fanbases will slowly erode year in, year out with every calibre player departure and every passing around the terraces of the bucket to stave off the administrator. That just isn't an attractive proposition to kids. The posters on here are actually selfish IMHO because they never had to put up with that in their own youth yet expect future generations to do so in their name and merely to prolong an archaic, out-of-date structure so they themselves can die knowing that they were "Wakey/Cas/Fev to the end", whatever this means. If the Hull clubs merge - and I suspect they will at some point - I will embrace the new club and consider myself no less "Hull KR til the end" than the King Canutes noisily drowning in their own self-pity (who, incidentally, will be long forgotten only a few years down the line). If anyone here has an issue with that, fine. I'd rather enjoy a level playing field and see good rugby week in, week out than waste my energy on a lost cause.

I don't like Parky's idea of just allowing Cas and Fev to rot and Wakey to cash-in, for 2 reasons:

(1) It's cowardly and dishonest, and
(2) It's potentially divisive. A go-alone SL Wakey might have the pick of the Cas and Fev kids for their fanbase but when they tour schools etc. there would still be an element of the pillaging invader about them and the inevitable animosity from the elders - whilst often no more than petulance at not getting their way - would nonetheless have more credence. As a Cas or Fev kid you'd feel like something of a traitor or hanger-on following that side, whereas a club called Calder is no less yours than anyone else in that region and would be a source of great pride to those kids. The same is true of Hull and potentially Hudds/Halifax and Warrington/Widnes if it needs to be done there as well. Waiting for 1 of the sides to consume or overpower the other(s) is simply the wrong and weasly way to go.

Calder needs to be done so let's do it right. Wakey fans have no greater claim to a lone Calder SL franchise than Cas or Fev. That they are currently a bit stronger should be irrelevant. RL for once needs a brave and joined-up approach to a difficult issue.

Edited by DeadShotKeen, 21 April 2013 - 11:18 AM.


#143 RSN

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 11:21 AM

Is there anyway of stopping from Fev and Cas rotting though DSK? If Wakefield get the ground I feel they'll start progressing alot faster than Cas and Fev, well to be fair Cas seem to be on a slide but having a new ground with nearly 10k fans is going to be more attractive to the younger population than the other two.

Lets say if Wakefield get a new ground, start achieving 10k and progress into the top 6, how are Cas and Fev meant to compete for the majority of the kids and fans. I just couldn't see it happening.

#144 DeadShotKeen

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 11:29 AM

Is there anyway of stopping from Fev and Cas rotting though DSK? If Wakefield get the ground I feel they'll start progressing alot faster than Cas and Fev, well to be fair Cas seem to be on a slide but having a new ground with nearly 10k fans is going to be more attractive to the younger population than the other two.

Lets say if Wakefield get a new ground, start achieving 10k and progress into the top 6, how are Cas and Fev meant to compete for the majority of the kids and fans. I just couldn't see it happening.

I agree with you. My point is that I don't want to see any side rot or any neighbours feast Vulture-like on their carcass. I want to see a mature, inclusive solution. There should be 1 Calder SL franchise and it should be specifically named for everyone in Calder.

#145 keighley

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 11:30 AM

Rugby league doesn't exist in a financial Galapagos archipelago though
The real Darwinism is going on in the outside world that it is part of. History and attitudes within the sport have dealt it a very weak hand
That's one of the reasons why being bold rather than conservative have been its saviour

 

Indeed and regression and retrenchment allied with overwhelming greed and failure to see a macro picture are defintely not bold but are the very definition of conservatism. What you want to do is be a Deus ex machina and intercede in the natural evolution of the sport for the benefit of a very small part at the top. The carnivores used to be at the top end of the food chain but where are they now.? You want to feed the SL big cats meat from the rotting carcase of the game, rotting and dead because we allowed you all to kill it..



#146 keighley

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 11:32 AM

I know you're not. It ok to disagree. I fundamentally disagree with most of your stance on the direction rugby league is going. Wouldn't stop me buyin thi a pint and have you listen to even more of my dreary sheeeeiiiiite! :lol:
Love n peace.....

 

Me too Parksider.



#147 keighley

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 11:37 AM

So dad's a murderer therefore son's a murderer.

 That's a ludicrous comparison but if you must go there then, yes, patterns of violence and abuse and mysoginism and drug use can be and often are learned behaviours. Trust me I,ve seen it many times in my former line of work.



#148 Padge

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 11:37 AM

The crucial aspect the staunch Wakey, Cas and Fev fans forget is that - without knowing a great deal about them - I'm guessing they're of a certain age and were thus born during or not long after periods of success or genuine competitiveness, back when those teams had no inferiority complex to the likes of Leeds and the other (now) big boys and games between them were a coin toss. The kids growing up in those areas now will have the same degree of local pride (of course) but Parky's hit the nail on the head - they want Super League and - more crucially - a team without such an inferiority complex. There's really no getting away from that, however passionate you are about your historic club. Parky is right that left to their own devices these fanbases will slowly erode year in, year out with every calibre player departure and every passing around the terraces of the bucket to stave off the administrator. That just isn't an attractive proposition to kids. The posters on here are actually selfish IMHO because they never had to put up with that in their own youth yet expect future generations to do so in their name and merely to prolong an archaic, out-of-date structure so they themselves can die knowing that they were "Wakey/Cas/Fev to the end", whatever this means. If the Hull clubs merge - and I suspect they will at some point - I will embrace the new club and consider myself no less "Hull KR til the end" than the King Canutes noisily drowning in their own self-pity (who, incidentally, will be long forgotten only a few years down the line). If anyone here has an issue with that, fine. I'd rather enjoy a level playing field and see good rugby week in, week out than waste my energy on a lost cause.

I don't like Parky's idea of just allowing Cas and Fev to rot and Wakey to cash-in, for 2 reasons:

(1) It's cowardly and dishonest, and
(2) It's potentially divisive. A go-alone SL Wakey might have the pick of the Cas and Fev kids for their fanbase but when they tour schools etc. there would still be an element of the pillaging invader about them and the inevitable animosity from the elders - whilst often no more than petulance at not getting their way - would nonetheless have more credence. As a Cas or Fev kid you'd feel like something of a traitor or hanger-on following that side, whereas a club called Calder is no less yours than anyone else in that region and would be a source of great pride to those kids. The same is true of Hull and potentially Hudds/Halifax and Warrington/Widnes if it needs to be done there as well. Waiting for 1 of the sides to consume or overpower the other(s) is simply the wrong and weasly way to go.

Calder needs to be done so let's do it right. Wakey fans have no greater claim to a lone Calder SL franchise than Cas or Fev. That they are currently a bit stronger should be irrelevant. RL for once needs a brave and joined-up approach to a difficult issue.

 

I fundamentally agree with you, but the supporters of the area voted for a fight to the death. That is what they are getting. One club will win and strangely the ones who were most vocal in the merger debate are the one's it seems that will be the biggest losers.



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#149 Padge

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 11:38 AM

 That's a ludicrous comparison but if you must go there then, yes, patterns of violence and abuse and mysoginism and drug use can be and often are learned behaviours. Trust me I,ve seen it many times in my former line of work.

 

And I have seen the best of people born of the worst of parents.



Visit my photography site www.padge.smugmug.com
Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007
Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

Footballers spend 90 minutes pretending to be hurt, rugby players spend 80 minutes pretending they haven't been hurt.


#150 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 11:40 AM

So dad's a murderer therefore son's a murderer.

Of course not
Most murders by far are one off events acted out under high emotional pressure of different kinds
The analogy doesn't work since watching sport, being a fan if you like is a continuous process

If we depend upon enjoyment of rugby league being passed down through the generations rather than opening up the possibilities for involvement from others not yet interested then wesredoomed. This is because not all children given the opportunity to enjoy the sport do so and numbers will diminish and the image of the rugby supporter wool inevitably become even more elderly.
So whilst I agree with your point I disagree with your analogy

WELCOME TO THE ROYSTON VASEY SUPER LEAGUE 2015

Keeping it local


#151 keighley

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 11:51 AM

The crucial aspect the staunch Wakey, Cas and Fev fans forget is that - without knowing a great deal about them - I'm guessing they're of a certain age and were thus born during or not long after periods of success or genuine competitiveness, back when those teams had no inferiority complex to the likes of Leeds and the other (now) big boys and games between them were a coin toss. The kids growing up in those areas now will have the same degree of local pride (of course) but Parky's hit the nail on the head - they want Super League and - more crucially - a team without such an inferiority complex. There's really no getting away from that, however passionate you are about your historic club. Parky is right that left to their own devices these fanbases will slowly erode year in, year out with every calibre player departure and every passing around the terraces of the bucket to stave off the administrator. That just isn't an attractive proposition to kids. The posters on here are actually selfish IMHO because they never had to put up with that in their own youth yet expect future generations to do so in their name and merely to prolong an archaic, out-of-date structure so they themselves can die knowing that they were "Wakey/Cas/Fev to the end", whatever this means. If the Hull clubs merge - and I suspect they will at some point - I will embrace the new club and consider myself no less "Hull KR til the end" than the King Canutes noisily drowning in their own self-pity (who, incidentally, will be long forgotten only a few years down the line). If anyone here has an issue with that, fine. I'd rather enjoy a level playing field and see good rugby week in, week out than waste my energy on a lost cause.

I don't like Parky's idea of just allowing Cas and Fev to rot and Wakey to cash-in, for 2 reasons:

(1) It's cowardly and dishonest, and
(2) It's potentially divisive. A go-alone SL Wakey might have the pick of the Cas and Fev kids for their fanbase but when they tour schools etc. there would still be an element of the pillaging invader about them and the inevitable animosity from the elders - whilst often no more than petulance at not getting their way - would nonetheless have more credence. As a Cas or Fev kid you'd feel like something of a traitor or hanger-on following that side, whereas a club called Calder is no less yours than anyone else in that region and would be a source of great pride to those kids. The same is true of Hull and potentially Hudds/Halifax and Warrington/Widnes if it needs to be done there as well. Waiting for 1 of the sides to consume or overpower the other(s) is simply the wrong and weasly way to go.

Calder needs to be done so let's do it right. Wakey fans have no greater claim to a lone Calder SL franchise than Cas or Fev. That they are currently a bit stronger should be irrelevant. RL for once needs a brave and joined-up approach to a difficult issue.

 

The only problem with your hypothesis is that it just plain wrong.The evidence is that Wakefield have trebled their crowds, Fev have doubled theirs and Cas, although in a bit of a slump are still ahead of where they were when I was young and they were a perennial bottom end of the table team.

 

Hull KR have quadrupled their crowds. Huddersfield, although not drawing as well as they should have also quadrupled their crowds. In the infamous Barracuda era they were at rock bottom drawing less than a thousand.

 

This 15 to 20,000 attendance scenario hallucinated about by these retrenchment gurus is just fantasy land. We have never EVER had a team averaging 20,000 and we never will in all probability and if we pitch our ambition in that direction we will end up with a very very small rump competition which will be too small to be relevant and will collapse from it's own weight.



#152 keighley

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 11:54 AM

And I have seen the best of people born of the worst of parents.

 

Yes, indeed. The exception that proves the rule theory but in the majority of cases this isn't so.



#153 keighley

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 12:00 PM

Of course not
Most murders by far are one off events acted out under high emotional pressure of different kinds
The analogy doesn't work since watching sport, being a fan if you like is a continuous process

If we depend upon enjoyment of rugby league being passed down through the generations rather than opening up the possibilities for involvement from others not yet interested then wesredoomed. This is because not all children given the opportunity to enjoy the sport do so and numbers will diminish and the image of the rugby supporter wool inevitably become even more elderly.
So whilst I agree with your point I disagree with your analogy

 Passing interest via generational and peer interaction is not the only way to manufacture support but it is one means to that end.

 

Success breeding success is another route and there have been many posts on here from non heartland supporters about how they were enticed to a game and were hooked. They then move into the position of bringing their children along as in the original point of discussion.

 

There is more than  one way to skin a cat.



#154 The Parksider

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 12:10 PM

My point is that I don't want to see any side rot or any neighbours feast Vulture-like on their carcass. I want to see a mature, inclusive solution. There should be 1 Calder SL franchise and it should be specifically named for everyone in Calder.

And everyone who watches each of the three clubs now will all hear what you say and support a Calder United playing out of Newmarket??

Please tell me if you believe that organising such a club does not risk that club being poorly supported and all three clubs will be stuffed??

Please tell me on a hard headed business risk basis why just leaving Wakefield in SL to keep on growing is not the far far less riskier option??.

Please also tell me why your using moralistic arguments and feeling sorry for people??

The success of the game comes first, without that we'll all be weeping??

#155 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 12:25 PM

Passing interest via generational and peer interaction is not the only way to manufacture support but it is one means to that end.

Success breeding success is another route and there have been many posts on here from non heartland supporters about how they were enticed to a game and were hooked. They then move into the position of bringing their children along as in the original point of discussion.

There is more than one way to skin a cat.


That is pretty much what I was saying

WELCOME TO THE ROYSTON VASEY SUPER LEAGUE 2015

Keeping it local


#156 DeadShotKeen

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 12:42 PM

And everyone who watches each of the three clubs now will all hear what you say and support a Calder United playing out of Newmarket??

Many won't but the new generations will. Many of the naysayers will return in time. Are Catalan Dragons not a great success based on the same formula?

Please tell me if you believe that organising such a club does not risk that club being poorly supported and all three clubs will be stuffed??

The alternative (all 3 sets of fans slowly disappearing to Leeds or maybe Bradford and the league dissolving into tedium and bankruptcy) is at least as risky.

Please tell me on a hard headed business risk basis why just leaving Wakefield in SL to keep on growing is not the far far less riskier option??.

Wakefield on its own is not big enough to rival Leeds or even Bradford without some other leveling measure such as revenue sharing.

Please also tell me why your using moralistic arguments and feeling sorry for people??

Because I am moralistic maybe? I have no problem with this. But I don't feel sorry for anyone, least of all myself as someone who went to see Hull KR as a nipper with my dad when we swept all before us in the early 80s. It was an accident of birth that I lived near the old Craven Park so chose them and the game owes me nothing other than a healthy, competitive top flight to enjoy.

The success of the game comes first, without that we'll all be weeping??

On this we can agree.

#157 The Parksider

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 12:47 PM

Many won't but the new generations will. Many of the naysayers will return in time. Are Catalan Dragons not a great success based on the same formula?The alternative (all 3 sets of fans slowly disappearing to Leeds or maybe Bradford and the league dissolving into tedium and bankruptcy) is at least as risky.Wakefield on its own is not big enough to rival Leeds or even Bradford without some other leveling measure such as revenue sharing.Because I am moralistic maybe? I have no problem with this. But I don't feel sorry for anyone, least of all myself as someone who went to see Hull KR as a nipper with my dad when we swept all before us in the early 80s. It was an accident of birth that I lived near the old Craven Park so chose them and the game owes me nothing other than a healthy, competitive top flight to enjoy.On this we can agree.

Thanks for the ever interesting replies.

You now need to get over the hurdle of the size of the losses if the new club only attracts 5,000 and that in turn leads to the club unable to secure decent players to win matches which maakes the fans of all three clubs continue not to bother

You need to appreciate the massive risk. This could be overcome by a millionaire putting several million in to guarantee the Calder United club doesn't struggle in the early years.

Know anyone who has an affinity to Calder United and wants to take that costly risk???

#158 DeadShotKeen

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 12:50 PM

Good luck finding those "future consumers" - what a horrible phrase borne out of the modern trend of reducing everything to number crunching, targets and management babble.

You will not find enough of these "new RL supporters" to support a brand new SL team. The same will happen if you place an artificially created team in any area where RL is already established - people have their teams, they support them. They are not interested in new teams and will not instantly switch to support a new team in the numbers needed to survive in the top flight. For some reason, it is always the Wakefield/Castleford/Featherstone area that is the subject of these nonsense merger club suggestions. They would be equally likely to fail if suggested in Hull, Halifax/Huddersfield, Widnes/St Helens - the people who live in these areas don't want them and that is why they would fail. How many more times will people keep proposing mergers before they realise this?

A self-serving argument if ever there was one. It seems to me that RL is the greatest game when played in the heartlands but when taken to new territories it suddenly becomes unworkable. Funny that eh?

Dr Koukash is the template for owners in new start-up areas, who might well be prepared to fund losses in early years in return for a fixed franchise. There's then no reason why we couldn't see RL succeed in big cities like Birmingham, Bristol, Edinburgh etc. in time. Before this though we need a slick, exciting, competitive, colourful product born of consolidation in the established areas with fewer, stronger clubs creating intense competition week in, week out that excites existing and new TV audiences alike. Leeds vs Featherstone, Wigan vs Castleford and St Helens vs Wakefield is simply not getting that done and never will in this era. They are mismatches by design not worth tuppence.

#159 DeadShotKeen

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 12:57 PM

My daughter watches rovers because of me. She watches Sheffield Wednesday inspite of my protests!
I still pay for her to watch fev and shes 28! If she wanted to watch leeds she can find her own way to Headingley and happen pay for her sen!!!!

IMHO you're making the argument against yourself. Your daughter probably likes watching Fev because they're a good 2nd tier team. I myself like watching Myton Warriors because a relative of my missus plays for them and I'm also enough of an RL nut to give up the odd Saturday afternoon to watch good quality amateur RL for a few quid. But would your daughter enjoy watching a limp Fev being run over in SL by the big boys in front of 5K fans week in, week out? And would I enjoy watching Myton punching above their weight in a 3rd tier? I'll just answer for myself and say "no" but I think it's also a reasonable assumption that your daughter proves the point that Fev can succeed within their means but no further. There is no disgrace in that. Stop assuming against all reason that things can ever again be as they were and embrace the future.

#160 keighley

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 12:59 PM

A self-serving argument if ever there was one. It seems to me that RL is the greatest game when played in the heartlands but when taken to new territories it suddenly becomes unworkable. Funny that eh?

Dr Koukash is the template for owners in new start-up areas, who might well be prepared to fund losses in early years in return for a fixed franchise. There's then no reason why we couldn't see RL succeed in big cities like Birmingham, Bristol, Edinburgh etc. in time. Before this though we need a slick, exciting, competitive, colourful product born of consolidation in the established areas with fewer, stronger clubs creating intense competition week in, week out that excites existing and new TV audiences alike. Leeds vs Featherstone, Wigan vs Castleford and St Helens vs Wakefield is simply not getting that done and never will in this era. They are mismatches by design not worth tuppence.

 

Did you see the Fev v Cas and the Fev v Wigan cup games last season and that was with a championship calibre team. I think the TV audiences were very good also.






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