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#101 Saintslass

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 08:48 AM

I don't burn effigies either and I loathe bonfire night. I doubt whether the people in Goldthorpe who's actions you didn't see(seemingly this is important to you). do on a frequent basis either. But I can see where they were coming from, and I hope it helped them in some way.

 

The defence services, the secret services, the police etc etc will have been taken from other duties, they don't just exist to take part in ruritanian funerals.

I saw their actions on TV, same as most other people.

 

The defence services may well have been taken from other duties but they won't have been paid anything in addition because attending ceremonial events is part of their role, as is policing ceremonial events or indeed any other public event.  The Police tend to get days in lieu, although overtime payments can be paid too (information provided to me direct from a recently retired chief inspector). 



#102 Saintslass

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 08:50 AM

you didn't watch the demo in Goldthorpe

 

I didn't say there was a eulogy. I said what I considered constitured agood fumeral-a eulogy being one of the elements.

 

as for my comments about St Paul's it's been there since the 17th century and looks magnificent whether it was an extremely expensiv part of Thatcher's funeral or not...I was mocking you.

You were mocking me?  Really?  Well, I wouldn't have guessed. You do tend to resort to the personal when you are losing an argument.



#103 John Drake

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 08:58 AM

Saintslass, l'angelo, either get a room and quarrel in private, or put each other on ignore, because this is getting REALLY REALLY tedious now. :angry:


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#104 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 09:02 AM

I saw their actions on TV, same as most other people.

 

The defence services may well have been taken from other duties but they won't have been paid anything in addition because attending ceremonial events is part of their role, as is policing ceremonial events or indeed any other public event.  The Police tend to get days in lieu, although overtime payments can be paid too (information provided to me direct from a recently retired chief inspector). 

I didn't realise the whole event had been broadcast live.

 

I saw parts of the funeral on the extenive news coverage and studied the detailed arrangements for it before the event and read the fature articles about it after.

 

When someone get's 'days in lieu', it has to be paid for, becaue the person is bei ng paid and someone has to cover their duties: information provided to you from the uncle of a serving police officer.

 

ceremonial events have to be paid for out of our overstretched defence budget a budget provided by the tax payer.

 

do you teach part time?


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#105 ckn

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 09:05 AM

1 post deleted, giving benefit of doubt just in case someone didn't read John's note.


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#106 Trojan

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 09:59 AM

I can't empathise with individuals who burn effigies.  It isn't something I ever do or have ever done.  And the only time I ever read tabloids - generally brainless papers (although written by very clever people) - is when I had to study them at university. 

 

The army, navy, police, secret services, emergency services, would all have been paid anyway since they are permanent staff.  They don't get paid in addition for attending a funeral.  It's simply part of their job.  Horses would require care whether they were at the funeral or trotting around their paddock.  The costs of the actual funeral will have related to St Paul's, transport arrangements for guests and the two receptions afterwards.  I very much doubt St Paul's, transport arrangements for guests and two receptions cost £10 million!

 

 

Let's put it another way, if it had been a Labour figure who'd attracted all this hoo-ha the Tories would be quick to point out how wasteful it all was.  And it was wasteful. I'm sure the Navy the Army, the Marines and the Airforce have better things to do than parade about in the Strand.  Double standards plague our democracy.  That's what really bugs me about the whole shindig.  The Mail reported that there'd been 742 complaints about the BBC's reporting of her death. What the Mail didn't report was that 500 of them had been complaints about the reports being too pro Thatcher. 

Perhaps you approve more of the City of Leeds's approach to Thatcher's funeral

http://www.secretlee...x?ThreadID=4725


Edited by Trojan, 19 April 2013 - 10:03 AM.

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#107 Saintslass

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 10:07 AM

Let's put it another way, if it had been a Labour figure who'd attracted all this hoo-ha the Tories would be quick to point out how wasteful it all was.  And it was wasteful. I'm sure the Navy the Army, the Marines and the Airforce have better things to do than parade about in the Strand.  Double standards plague our democracy.  That's what really bugs me about the whole shindig.  The Mail reported that there'd been 742 complaints about the BBC's reporting of her death. What the Mail didn't report was that 500 of them had been complaints about the reports being too pro Thatcher. 

To be honest, I have no idea how Tories would have reacted.  I know, for example, that John Major attended the funeral of the Labour leader whose name I have now forgotten but wasn't he replaced by Tony Blair?  (Memory is dodgy here as I may have got the timing wrong)  Anyway, I'm quite sure the Tories would have been happy for, say, Attlee to have been given the same kind of funeral as Thatcher was, because I am quite sure Tory MPs will regard Attlee as a great PM who oversaw some momentous changes also.  But obviously that's just speculation.

 

Actually, part of the role of the armed services is to do exactly what they did at the funeral.  The King's Regiment, for example, don't really do much else!  Although of course they are all fully trained soldiers.  All armed services have ceremonial outfits as well as service ones.

 

I don't read the Daily Mail and so I don't know anything about complaints but given that it was Thatcher's funeral that was being covered by the BBC it would have been entirely out of place for them to be anything other than pro-Thatcher.  The BBC is paid for by taxpayers of all political persuasions and on this occasion it was (largely but not exclusively) those of a more rightward persuasion who were being served.  Those of a leftward persuasion just had to suck it up.


Edited by Saintslass, 19 April 2013 - 10:08 AM.


#108 Derwent

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 10:13 AM

 

They would have been taken away from other duties and its standard practice to include all costs, including salary costs, when working out how expensive something was.

Yes, but it is essentially an opportunity cost rather than a new additional cost. For example, the last big scale ceremonial funeral was the Queen Mother's and the cost was put at £8m with around £3.5m of that being opportunity cost (police, armed forces, security services, road closures etc) - i.e. true cost to the taxpayer over and above fixed costs was around £4.5m.

Something that is impossible to quantify is how much the funeral actually contributed to the economy - many of those people lining the route will have bought things from shops and businesses nearby (food, drinks, souvenirs etc) as well as items like travelling costs and accommodation, so the public purse will recover some costs through VAT and tax on profit on goods and services sold.

All of the duty paid on the alcohol in those tacky street parties and WMC celebrations will have made a nice to contribution to the funeral cost as well........

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#109 Phil

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 10:20 AM

I don't read the Daily Mail and so I don't know anything about complaints but given that it was Thatcher's funeral that was being covered by the BBC it would have been entirely out of place for them to be anything other than pro-Thatcher.  The BBC is paid for by taxpayers of all political persuasions and on this occasion it was (largely but not exclusively) those of a more rightward persuasion who were being served.  Those of a leftward persuasion just had to suck it up.

 

 

 

Errrr no what about balance? 


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#110 Trojan

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 10:23 AM

To be honest, I have no idea how Tories would have reacted.  I know, for example, that John Major attended the funeral of the Labour leader whose name I have now forgotten but wasn't he replaced by Tony Blair?  (Memory is dodgy here as I may have got the timing wrong)  Anyway, I'm quite sure the Tories would have been happy for, say, Attlee to have been given the same kind of funeral as Thatcher was, because I am quite sure Tory MPs will regard Attlee as a great PM who oversaw some momentous changes also.  But obviously that's just speculation.

 

Actually, part of the role of the armed services is to do exactly what they did at the funeral.  The King's Regiment, for example, don't really do much else!  Although of course they are all fully trained soldiers.  All armed services have ceremonial outfits as well as service ones.

 

I don't read the Daily Mail and so I don't know anything about complaints but given that it was Thatcher's funeral that was being covered by the BBC it would have been entirely out of place for them to be anything other than pro-Thatcher.  The BBC is paid for by taxpayers of all political persuasions and on this occasion it was (largely but not exclusively) those of a more rightward persuasion who were being served.  Those of a leftward persuasion just had to suck it up.

 

Attlee didn't get a state funeral, no Labour Leader/ PM has had a state funeral, although John Smith's funeral was a fairly big event in Edinbugh. I was alive when Churchill died, His funeral was a megga event. But in retrospect I don't reckon he really deserved it. He had his moment in WWII and deserves praise for his leadership.  But, in terms of the popular vote he never won an election as PM. He was responsible for the troops firing on striking miners at Tonypandy and for the Dardenelles fiasco in WWI. It was Churchill who ordered the RAF to bomb Dresden, it is suspected that he was also behind the disastrous Dieppe raid too. He was(Osborne excepted) possibly the UK's worst Chancellor of the Exchequer. He switched parties twice, from Tory to Liberal and back again.  I'm not much of a fan.  Towards the end of his time as PM he suffered a stroke, which was covered up by the compliant media which said he had "as heavy cold", but he insisted in carrying on as PM even though he was effectively doo lally.  And yet he is hailed as our greatest PM, because of the media bias.


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#111 Trojan

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 10:26 AM

 Something that is impossible to quantify is how much the funeral actually contributed to the economy - many of those people lining the route will have bought things from shops and businesses nearby (food, drinks, souvenirs etc) as well as items like travelling costs and accommodation, so the public purse will recover some costs through VAT and tax on profit on goods and services sold.

All of the duty paid on the alcohol in those tacky street parties and WMC celebrations will have made a nice to contribution to the funeral cost as well........

 

 

Many of those lining the route were presumably taking the day off.  If the last Royal Wedding contributed to the double dip recession, surely this affair could fairly be accused of contributing to the triple dip recession when it comes!


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#112 Ackroman

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 10:49 AM

For the indignant, get over yourselves. Nothing they did hasn't been done before by people of all political persuasions. I don't recall a thread decrying the sectarian issues surrounding Nov 5th, and the barbaric nature of peoples bonfires. It's something that I find personally distasteful but by Nov 6th it's usually burnt itself out.

However it's a shame that Thatcher wasn't buried which would have been the final irony because it just might have been an ex miner that dug the hole. She couldn't even give us northerners that last laugh.

#113 Saintslass

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 11:14 AM

Errrr no what about balance? 

The balance came with showing the street parties and the effigy burning in Goldthorpe.



#114 Derwent

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 11:14 AM

 

Many of those lining the route were presumably taking the day off.  If the last Royal Wedding contributed to the double dip recession, surely this affair could fairly be accused of contributing to the triple dip recession when it comes!

That is clutching at straws completely. IIRC the royal wedding was declared a public holiday whereby the majority of the working population were given the day off work. The proportion of the working population who will have taken time off for Thatcher's funeral will be so minute in % terms as to be lost in the roundings. There is absolutely no correlation or comparison between the two events in terms of economic impact.

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#115 Saintslass

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 11:16 AM

Attlee didn't get a state funeral, no Labour Leader/ PM has had a state funeral, although John Smith's funeral was a fairly big event in Edinbugh.

That's whose funeral John Major attended: John Smith. 



#116 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 11:17 AM

To be honest, I have no idea how Tories would have reacted.  I know, for example, that John Major attended the funeral of the Labour leader whose name I have now forgotten but wasn't he replaced by Tony Blair?  (Memory is dodgy here as I may have got the timing wrong)  Anyway, I'm quite sure the Tories would have been happy for, say, Attlee to have been given the same kind of funeral as Thatcher was, because I am quite sure Tory MPs will regard Attlee as a great PM who oversaw some momentous changes also.  But obviously that's just speculation.

 

Actually, part of the role of the armed services is to do exactly what they did at the funeral.  The King's Regiment, for example, don't really do much else!  Although of course they are all fully trained soldiers.  All armed services have ceremonial outfits as well as service ones.

 

I don't read the Daily Mail and so I don't know anything about complaints but given that it was Thatcher's funeral that was being covered by the BBC it would have been entirely out of place for them to be anything other than pro-Thatcher.  The BBC is paid for by taxpayers of all political persuasions and on this occasion it was (largely but not exclusively) those of a more rightward persuasion who were being served.  Those of a leftward persuasion just had to suck it up.

You are thinking of John Smith. major would have been obliged to attend his funeral

 

Thereis no such regiment as th King's regiment, there was a King's regiment of Liverpool. there is the King's troop Royal Horse artillery. I think you will ind this small unit: ie a troop  will do their tour of duty in Afghanistan the same as any other army units. There were many other members of the defense services involved in the funeral.

 

You don't read the Daily Mail, but apparently you read the Daily Mirror.

 

Personally I read as many newspapers I can get my hands on.

 

I thought the BBC was paid for by the licence fee payer, whether they are tax payers or not, and from its own revenue The whole point of the BBC is that it is independent of the government. I'll behappy to be corrected on that one. 


Edited by l'angelo mysterioso, 19 April 2013 - 11:23 AM.

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#117 Saintslass

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 11:20 AM

 That is clutching at straws completely. IIRC the royal wedding was declared a public holiday whereby the majority of the working population were given the day off work. The proportion of the working population who will have taken time off for Thatcher's funeral will be so minute in % terms as to be lost in the roundings. There is absolutely no correlation or comparison between the two events in terms of economic impact.

Given that it wasn't a public holiday, any annual leave taken by individuals to attend the funeral would be part of their statutory rights and would be taken anyway so there would be no additional impact upon the economy by anyone taking annual leave.  In addition, some tourists had flown into the country especially to attend the funeral and 'be part of history' (to quote two I saw interviewed).  If a big enough number of people did that then the economy will have been boosted by the funeral.



#118 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 11:21 AM

For the indignant, get over yourselves. Nothing they did hasn't been done before by people of all political persuasions. I don't recall a thread decrying the sectarian issues surrounding Nov 5th, and the barbaric nature of peoples bonfires. It's something that I find personally distasteful but by Nov 6th it's usually burnt itself out.

However it's a shame that Thatcher wasn't buried which would have been the final irony because it just might have been an ex miner that dug the hole. She couldn't even give us northerners that last laugh.

well played

good to see someone is alive and well on planet earth. Andyes I will endeavour to get over myself, and I hope others will do the same


Edited by l'angelo mysterioso, 19 April 2013 - 11:24 AM.

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#119 Griff9of13

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 11:25 AM

At least the funeral wasn't turned into a tory party political jamboree 

 

Oh, wait a minute, yes it was.


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#120 Saintslass

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 11:26 AM

You are thinking of John Smith. major would have been obliged to attend his funeral

 

Thereis no such regimnt as th King's regiment,, tere was a King's regiment of Liverpool. there is the King's troop Royal Horse artillery. I think yu will ind this small unit: ie a troop  will do ther tour of duty in Afghanistan the same as any other army units. There were many other members of the deefnse servics involved in the funeral.

 

You don't read the aily Mail, but apparently you read the Daily Mirror.

 

Personally I read as many newspapers I can get my hands on.

 

 thought the BBC was paid for by the licence fee payer, whethee they are tax payers or not, and from its own revenue The whole point of the BBC is that it is independent of the government. I'll behappy to be corrected on that one. 

I doubt Major would have been obliged to attend John Smith's funeral as John Smith wasn't a Prime Minister or head of state.

 

I read neither the Daily Mail nor the Daily Mirror.  However, if links are provided to either in connection with a post then I will read them so that I know what the post is about. 

 

The licence fee IS a tax.  We are obliged by law to pay it.  Hence where the BBC is concerned we are all taxpayers and it is right that we are all represented. 






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