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More P/R ideas!


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#1 bar red

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Posted 18 April 2013 - 04:24 PM

                  P/R probably the most commented subject of the forum. One more possibility, not totally thought through but maybe worth a discussion. The main problem of the present system is the amount of "dead rubbers" in SL and the lack of aspiration for Championship clubs.

                 Maybe a 2 year turnaround would be possible. The SL clubs finishing bottom would gain 1 point, second bottom 2 points etc. The club with the least points after the 2 seasons would be relegated. In the Championship the top team in the league would gain 10 points, 2nd 8 points,3rd/6, 4th/4. In the play offs, ( a 4 team play off) the winner would gain 10 points, runner up 8 points, s/finalists 6/4 points each. After 2 seasons the club with the most points would be automatically be promoted (if they wished to).

               This would give the promoted team a 2 year period to establish themselves and the relegated team 2 years to re-group. The advantage of this system is that every game in every season would be crucial. In S/L, the team finishing bottom would need to improve drastically in season 2 and the clubs that finished 3/4/5/6th bottom could not relax and have a terrible season 2. Anybody that finishes bottom for 2 seasons running do not deserve to be in S/L anyway. If 2 teams finished with the same points, points difference would be the deciding factor making blowouts crucial to avoid.

               In the championship both league position and play off success would be pivotal giving every game an extra edge. A team finishing 4th would need to beat the top team in the s/f to equalize the points differential. This is over 2 years so the most consistent/deserving team would be promoted. At the moment RL seems to have hit a brick wall with some SL teams stagnating with no threat of relegation and an apathy in the Championship with no rewards for ambitious clubs. This way the promotion would be decided on the field not by some dubious "committee" with ever changing criteria. It also may help to encourage investment in Ch clubs from businessmen who could see a level playing field and a path to SL. This would stop the ludicrous situation last time where Widnes won 1 cup in 3 years and finished 3/4th in the league yet were promoted.This is not a pop at Widnes but if the above system was adopted you would have to finish top/ GF winners to be promoted, making a compelling competition. No doubt there is probably a big hole in this idea but the need for a more competitive RL and a pathway for ambition is imperative for the future of the game.

              

  



#2 The Parksider

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 05:52 AM

At the moment RL seems to have hit a brick wall with some SL teams stagnating with no threat of relegation and an apathy in the Championship with no rewards for ambitious clubs. It also may help to encourage investment in Ch clubs from businessmen who could see a level playing field and a path to SL. This would stop the ludicrous situation last time where Widnes won 1 cup in 3 years and finished 3/4th in the league yet were promoted.

The lack of a threat of relegation is not causing any club to stagnate. It's the lack of money and fans paying money, Cas London HKR salford and Widnes all suffer this.

The lack of a reward for ambitious clubs is because they have no money. Whilst Halifax may want and deserve promotion they had no money. If Fev get their ambition rewarded it will only be because they may show the money necessary to compete in SL which they say the will do.

Widnes' promotion was not ludicrous, they had the money to bridge the gap between the divisions. Profesional RL was created by sackfulls of money. Money dictates who goes up and who goes down nothing will be decided "on the pitch" until those deciding it all have an even financial playing field and they don't.

When Wigan play Leigh this weekend one club will be paying £1,650,000 wages to their players from a turnover of £6,000,000 plus. The other will be paying £250,000 to their players off a turnover of what? £800,000?

Wigan it could be argued are financially eight times as big as Leigh.

You won't bridge that gap with fixture formats, and rich men won't be attracted by them. Mr. Koukash like Mr. O'Connor will just buy their way into SL.

Edited by The Parksider, 19 April 2013 - 05:53 AM.


#3 statties

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 06:52 AM

While I don't agree with promotion relegation, I did see one format reported for the SPL that I thought was very interesting.

 

If we stay at 14 teams then once the regular season is completed the bottom 2 clubs from SL and the top 2 clubs from Championship would play in a round robin. The top two teams following the round robin would qualify for SL.

 

There are other versions like the top four and bottom four in a revers playoff series and the top three and bottom three run like the Super 6 in cricket.

 

As interesting and engaged as I would be, I still think any PnR would be to the detriment of SL.



#4 The Parksider

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 09:21 AM

While I don't agree with promotion relegation, I did see one format reported for the SPL that I thought was very interesting.
 
If we stay at 14 teams then once the regular season is completed the bottom 2 clubs from SL and the top 2 clubs from Championship would play in a round robin. The top two teams following the round robin would qualify for SL.
 
There are other versions like the top four and bottom four in a revers playoff series and the top three and bottom three run like the Super 6 in cricket.
 
As interesting and engaged as I would be, I still think any PnR would be to the detriment of SL.

P & R IMHO is not the games problem I agree.

It's the problem of a group of disenfranchised fans.

Your idea is a nice one, but you are pitching two semi professional clubs against professional clubs which is hardly fair.

The semi professional players may not all want to turn professional, especially if it may be just for one season. The pro players may be desperate for their careers.

It's just not right, proper, fair or an even contest.

I go back to the time when Castleford were relegated and maintained a strong well paid squad to bounce back first time. Whitehaven went toe to toe with them all season and both ended up in the grand final.

We had lads playing professional busting a gut to win that final play off and get beck into SL against semi pro lads who had careers and who were playing for a club whose chairman himself didn't have the money for Superleague.

The play off final was all over very quickly, it was a terrible game, Haven laid down and died.

Edited by The Parksider, 19 April 2013 - 09:21 AM.


#5 Bulliac

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 09:42 AM

Until we have more than one fully pro league, P&R is not going to work, as you can't promote a team from a semi-pro environment and expect it to survive [let alone prosper] in a professional environment.
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#6 The 4 of Us

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 10:54 AM

We are likely to have 38 teams with inclusion of Coventry next year or addition of Toulouse ?

There could be :-
Superleague 1 - 12 teams ( Top 10 finishing UK clubs in 2014 + 2 French clubs )
Salary Cap £2.5 m ( £1 million grant per team plus share of any negotiated French TV contract? ) £12 Million totall
Superleague 2 - 12 teams
Salary Cap £750,000 ( £500,000 grant per team )
£6 Million total

National League 3 - 14 teams
Salary Cap £300, 000 ( £200,00 grant per team ) £2.8 million total

Current TV contract £20 million per year 'ish?

22 home and away games plus magic fixture will give 23 league games plus top 6 for Grand Final - bottom 6 for 1 relegation spot ( this could be repeated in SL 2 and League 3 )

Re-organise Challenge Cup to have last 16 split into 4 leagues of 4 gives 3 extra fixtures. Top team on points difference into Semis )

#7 Griff

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 11:31 AM

While I don't agree with promotion relegation, I did see one format reported for the SPL that I thought was very interesting.

 

If we stay at 14 teams then once the regular season is completed the bottom 2 clubs from SL and the top 2 clubs from Championship would play in a round robin. The top two teams following the round robin would qualify for SL.

 

There are other versions like the top four and bottom four in a revers playoff series and the top three and bottom three run like the Super 6 in cricket.

 

As interesting and engaged as I would be, I still think any PnR would be to the detriment of SL.

 

When are all these games going to be fitted in ? :mellow:

 

And as Parky says, the $uperleague teams would be very firm favourites.  Even at semi-pro level, the Div 2/Div 3 play-off had a very short like because the Div 2 team always won.  No wonder - they were always at home and they always had better players.


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#8 The Parksider

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 12:29 PM

National League 3 £200,00 grant per team

SKY are going to give the likes of Hunslet at least £200,000?

Why?????

#9 Bulliac

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 01:54 PM

SKY are going to give the likes of Hunslet at least £200,000?

Why?????

The only way that would happen would be if the RFL handled all the TV money and gave it out as they thought was in the best interests of the game. Then there would be a breakaway by the top clubs who would argue the money was meant for them..
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#10 statties

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 04:02 PM

P & R IMHO is not the games problem I agree.

It's the problem of a group of disenfranchised fans.

Your idea is a nice one, but you are pitching two semi professional clubs against professional clubs which is hardly fair.

The semi professional players may not all want to turn professional, especially if it may be just for one season. The pro players may be desperate for their careers.

It's just not right, proper, fair or an even contest.

I go back to the time when Castleford were relegated and maintained a strong well paid squad to bounce back first time. Whitehaven went toe to toe with them all season and both ended up in the grand final.

We had lads playing professional busting a gut to win that final play off and get beck into SL against semi pro lads who had careers and who were playing for a club whose chairman himself didn't have the money for Superleague.

The play off final was all over very quickly, it was a terrible game, Haven laid down and died.

yep, I totally understand that there will not be on a level playing ground player wise. As someone who doesn't want PnR in the first place, I am satisfied with this format, as it will create interest and the SL teams will win and survive anyway.

 

Until we have more than one fully pro league, P&R is not going to work, as you can't promote a team from a semi-pro environment and expect it to survive [let alone prosper] in a professional environment.

 

well said, couldn't have put it in a more concise yet factual way myself.

When are all these games going to be fitted in ? :mellow:

 

And as Parky says, the $uperleague teams would be very firm favourites.  Even at semi-pro level, the Div 2/Div 3 play-off had a very short like because the Div 2 team always won.  No wonder - they were always at home and they always had better players.

 

They can be played at the same time as the finals. Like I say above, it means very little to me. Keep PnR scrapped and I am a happy person and RL will be the winner in the end



#11 statties

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 04:50 PM

a quick bit of research shows the number of different club champions in leagues with PnR 

 

EPL: 5 in 21 years (this included)

La Liga: 5 in 31 years (this included)

Serie A: 5 in 21 years

Bundesliga: 6 in 30 years

Eriviedise: 5 in 50 years

English RU: 7 in 25

SPL: no need......

 

those without PnR

 

NRL: 10 in 18 years

AFL: 10 in 15 years

NBA: 8 in 19

NHL: 11 in 14

NFL: 12 in 18



#12 RSN

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 06:17 PM

a quick bit of research shows the number of different club champions in leagues with PnR

EPL: 5 in 21 years (this included)
La Liga: 5 in 31 years (this included)
Serie A: 5 in 21 years
Bundesliga: 6 in 30 years
Eriviedise: 5 in 50 years
English RU: 7 in 25
SPL: no need......

those without PnR

NRL: 10 in 18 years
AFL: 10 in 15 years
NBA: 8 in 19
NHL: 11 in 14
NFL: 12 in 18

Can't take isolated stats as clear evidence as there is many other factors. Salary caps and draft systems take place on the bottom ones whilst they don't on the majority of the league's you named with p and r.

Edited by barrowraiderskid, 19 April 2013 - 06:17 PM.


#13 red dwarf

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 06:33 PM

The lack of a threat of relegation is not causing any club to stagnate. It's the lack of money and fans paying money, Cas London HKR salford and Widnes all suffer this.

The lack of a reward for ambitious clubs is because they have no money. Whilst Halifax may want and deserve promotion they had no money. If Fev get their ambition rewarded it will only be because they may show the money necessary to compete in SL which they say the will do.

Widnes' promotion was not ludicrous, they had the money to bridge the gap between the divisions. Profesional RL was created by sackfulls of money. Money dictates who goes up and who goes down nothing will be decided "on the pitch" until those deciding it all have an even financial playing field and they don't.

When Wigan play Leigh this weekend one club will be paying £1,650,000 wages to their players from a turnover of £6,000,000 plus. The other will be paying £250,000 to their players off a turnover of what? £800,000?

Wigan it could be argued are financially eight times as big as Leigh.

You won't bridge that gap with fixture formats, and rich men won't be attracted by them. Mr. Koukash like Mr. O'Connor will just buy their way into SL.

Half that and you will be about right

 

Add £ 200,000 to it and you have Leighs turnover in 2002



#14 statties

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 08:10 PM

Can't take isolated stats as clear evidence as there is many other factors. Salary caps and draft systems take place on the bottom ones whilst they don't on the majority of the league's you named with p and r.

you cant run a draft system in PnR anyway. What the evidence says is that those leagues with salary caps and no PnR are far more competitive than those without. there is no arguing with that.



#15 red dwarf

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 08:17 PM

And the sports without P and R are all based on essentially Continents , where the distances between clubs suits their respective structures



#16 bedlam breakout

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Posted 19 April 2013 - 08:19 PM

and we can have one of these

 

http://news.bbc.co.u...tor/default.stm


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