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Is time up at Saints?


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#1 Pugwash

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 05:55 PM

That was one of the worst performances I've ever seen from a Saints team today. They were ill-disciplined, lacked diection and even the better players lacked consistency against Rovers. They just don't appear to want it at the moment!

Now they are out of the Challenge Cup and all but out of the league they might think it's time to start on next year's squad and that would mean the chop for either some players or the coach.

Up until the shoulder charge was banned I very rarely saw it used, now we see Saints use it at least three times and two may result in bans when the powers that be see them as they went on report. Meli was quite rightly sent off, he tried to con the ref by faking an arm injury, sustained when trying to separate an attacker from his shoulders.

Well beaten by a team that had been coached and went out with a game-plan that they stuck to and it worked.

Pugwash.

Edited by Pugwash, 20 April 2013 - 06:03 PM.

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#2 boro hornet

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 07:41 PM

Meli has dislocated his elbow yes he did deserve to be sent off but to say he tried to fake it is wrong
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#3 Pugwash

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 09:25 PM

Fair dos, I'm used to seeing those over-paid Wendyball prima donnas who do that, when they think they are in a spot of bother they feign injury and it sometimes works!

If Meli dislocated his elbow it shows how hard he hit the guy. It was horrific and I was surprised he carried on playing.

Rovers simply wanted it more than Saints.

Pugwash.
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War doesn't decide who is right, just who is left!



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#4 ColDale

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 10:08 PM

You can't say they are out of the league as the league season is meaningless now, as proved by Leeds in the past two seasons. Top 8 qualification is a given for the big sides so treat the season as one big pre-season ensuring that the players are at full physical fitness for the last few weeks. The Play Off system is making Feb to August a waste of time.


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#5 Pugwash

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Posted 20 April 2013 - 10:36 PM

You can't say they are out of the league as the league season is meaningless now, as proved by Leeds in the past two seasons. Top 8 qualification is a given for the big sides so treat the season as one big pre-season ensuring that the players are at full physical fitness for the last few weeks. The Play Off system is making Feb to August a waste of time.

Do you want a bet???

Pugwash.
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DeepakChopra:

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War doesn't decide who is right, just who is left!



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#6 ColDale

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 12:03 AM

they still might do nowt this year but my off topic point was the pointlessness of the league season. Leeds have been also rans for the past two years based on league form.


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#7 Pugwash

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 12:43 AM

I agree with your sentiments Col but what I see at Saints now doesn't suggest they can do anything at all like the heroics Leeds have produced in the past few seasons.

At the moment Saints can't hold a light to the likes of Wigan, Leeds and Wire, there are a few more as well like Catalan, Bradford and the Hull duo. Don't forget that this season Saints have been especially poor at home and a couple of games they have won have been very lucky indeed, Widnes and Salford being a couple of for instances.

No, Saints have lost any chance of a pot this season and at the moment they may not even get into the top eight playoffs!!! The other teas aren't frightened of them any more!!

I stand by my prediction that they will win nowt!!

Pugwash.
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DeepakChopra:

"Every time you are tempted to react in the same old way, ask yourself if you want to be a prisoner of the past or a pioneer of the future".


War doesn't decide who is right, just who is left!



Andrew Birch is Pugwash.

#8 no1 saints fan

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 01:14 AM

That was one of the worst performances I've ever seen from a Saints team today. They were ill-disciplined, lacked diection and even the better players lacked consistency against Rovers. They just don't appear to want it at the moment!

Now they are out of the Challenge Cup and all but out of the league they might think it's time to start on next year's squad and that would mean the chop for either some players or the coach.

Up until the shoulder charge was banned I very rarely saw it used, now we see Saints use it at least three times and two may result in bans when the powers that be see them as they went on report. Meli was quite rightly sent off, he tried to con the ref by faking an arm injury, sustained when trying to separate an attacker from his shoulders.

Well beaten by a team that had been coached and went out with a game-plan that they stuck to and it worked.

Pugwash.

 

We had Lomax, Roby, Manu, Perry and Flanagan all missing. We had our 3rd choice fullback, 2nd choice hooker, a stand off who isn't a stand off, and a second rower at scrum half. We played a lot of the game with 12 men, managed to get in front at one point, and they scored most of their tries from kicks. The better team on the day won but we weren't far off. The sending off was a massive turning point (I agree with the sending off btw).

 

As for your comment about Meli and him trying to con the ref by faking an arm injury, before you make such a disgraceful statement you should go and check the facts first.

 

The main problem at Saints at the moment is in the halfs. It all stems from when Long left the club. We had two scrum halfs at the club at the time. Matty Smith and Kyle Eastmond. We made the right decision by keeping Kyle but did not know at the time that he would leave one year later and go to Union. Lomax was given the number 7 shirt but he has never been a scrum half. Now that he is injured, our only option is Wilkin (a second rower).

 

If you play a second rower at scrum half in any SL team, they will struggle because there is no direction.

 

I know for a fact that we are looking to recruit a world class half back for next season. Also, due to the number of players off contract at the end of the year, there will be quite a few new faces next season.



#9 no1 saints fan

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 01:39 AM

I agree with your sentiments Col but what I see at Saints now doesn't suggest they can do anything at all like the heroics Leeds have produced in the past few seasons.

At the moment Saints can't hold a light to the likes of Wigan, Leeds and Wire, there are a few more as well like Catalan, Bradford and the Hull duo. Don't forget that this season Saints have been especially poor at home and a couple of games they have won have been very lucky indeed, Widnes and Salford being a couple of for instances.

No, Saints have lost any chance of a pot this season and at the moment they may not even get into the top eight playoffs!!! The other teas aren't frightened of them any more!!

I stand by my prediction that they will win nowt!!

Pugwash.

I would agree with you that we probably won't win anything this season. Most Saints fans would feel the same. We need an experienced half back with a decent kicking game that can guide the team around the pitch. Sadly it is only going to happen next season.

 

You say we can't hold a light to the likes of Wigan, Leeds and Wire. We have actually won at Warrington this season. The difference was that in that game we had our best players playing. The likes of Roby, Lomax and Manu. The last two league games (Hull KR and Catalans) we could have easily won them. We had opportunities in both games to snatch the win in the last 5-6 minutes but poor passes let us down.

 

But to say that we won't get into the top eight playoffs is laughable. When we get through this injury crisis (which you don't seem to see) we will be right up there. Definately in the top 4. If you look at the league at a similiar time last season, we where in an even worse position. We ended up finishing 3rd.

 

Don't write us off just yet!!!

 

Also, when where other teams ever "frightened" of us? haha. Just curious to know.



#10 fillipo del toro

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 05:14 AM

Very, very Harsh judging Saints season on that performance today. Ravedged with injuries. Peddled by the ref in the first half & still made a game of it against a useful HKR.
Agree about Meli a text book high shot that was. Full credit to Hall for getting back up & getting on with it after counting his teeth.

A good televised game, with a decent commentary team.
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#11 Pugwash

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 08:39 AM

Firstly, I've already admitted being in error about Meli feigning injury let's drop it now eh?  He would have been missing for a few games anyway when the disciplinary committee see that assault which was a  very bad one indeed!

 

Injuries are part and parcel of the game, everyone gets them and it's how you deal with them that's important.  You rightly point out about being short in the halves, you had one and let him go and he now plies his trade in France??  You point out that you have players playing out of position, that is a particular hobby horse of mine, I say play your reserves that's why you have them.  If they aren't up to it then why are they in your reserves?

 

You ask when teams were afraid of Saints, come on mate, over the last ten years Saints have destroyed some really good teams by playing their own brand of open rugby league.  They were never beaten, as Warrington, they could pass the ball about for ages taking it right them left then right again in search of an opening and the opposition were left grasping at shadows.  That rarely happens now and I'm sad to say that they have become quite predictable!

 

You state that you could have won a couple of games that were lost but there have been games you won that maybe you should have lost so that redresses the balance.

 

Why oh why did they start shoulder charging?  The ref gave them a couple of let offs by placing on report two and they still persevered with tactic and for me if you can get into position to shoulder charge you can make a proper tackle, this is something Saints of old would never have done.

 

I may have come across as anti-Saints and this couldn't be farther from the fact, I love watching Saints and always watch for their results, I've been at Old Trafford and seen you win the Grand Final and want to see this happen again but this squad hasn't a snowball's chance in Hell I'm afraid.  You rubbish my suggestion that Saints will not be in the top eight and I admit that will probably not happen but I stand by saying it is NOT unthinkable if you look at he table.

 

Pugwash.


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DeepakChopra:

"Every time you are tempted to react in the same old way, ask yourself if you want to be a prisoner of the past or a pioneer of the future".


War doesn't decide who is right, just who is left!



Andrew Birch is Pugwash.

#12 no1 saints fan

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 01:20 PM

Firstly, I've already admitted being in error about Meli feigning injury let's drop it now eh?  He would have been missing for a few games anyway when the disciplinary committee see that assault which was a  very bad one indeed!

 

Injuries are part and parcel of the game, everyone gets them and it's how you deal with them that's important.  You rightly point out about being short in the halves, you had one and let him go and he now plies his trade in France??  You point out that you have players playing out of position, that is a particular hobby horse of mine, I say play your reserves that's why you have them.  If they aren't up to it then why are they in your reserves?

 

You ask when teams were afraid of Saints, come on mate, over the last ten years Saints have destroyed some really good teams by playing their own brand of open rugby league.  They were never beaten, as Warrington, they could pass the ball about for ages taking it right them left then right again in search of an opening and the opposition were left grasping at shadows.  That rarely happens now and I'm sad to say that they have become quite predictable!

 

You state that you could have won a couple of games that were lost but there have been games you won that maybe you should have lost so that redresses the balance.

 

Why oh why did they start shoulder charging?  The ref gave them a couple of let offs by placing on report two and they still persevered with tactic and for me if you can get into position to shoulder charge you can make a proper tackle, this is something Saints of old would never have done.

 

I may have come across as anti-Saints and this couldn't be farther from the fact, I love watching Saints and always watch for their results, I've been at Old Trafford and seen you win the Grand Final and want to see this happen again but this squad hasn't a snowball's chance in Hell I'm afraid.  You rubbish my suggestion that Saints will not be in the top eight and I admit that will probably not happen but I stand by saying it is NOT unthinkable if you look at he table.

 

Pugwash.

 

Every team gets injuries but ours are particularly bad at the moment. What makes it worse is that they are in key positions. To be fair, I don't think we have done too bad considering the players we have missing. If you take the first choice 1, 7 and 9 out of any super league team they will be less effective. That is just a fact. There is only 1 or 2 sides that could of coped as well as we have.

 

Let me ask you a question. Take Wigan, remove Tomkins, Smith, McIlorum, one of their 1st choice props and one of their 1st choice second rowers. Would they be a better team or not? It's a genuine question. I'm not being sarcastic.

 

You mention the reserves. I assume you mean the under 19's. We have a very good scrum half who has played for the england academy, but he is out with a broken hand. Plus, you cannot expect an inexperienced 18 year old to come into the side and play in the most important position on the field.

 

Just to illustrate the kind of season we are having, we have used 32 players this year (more than any other team) and that includes 7 academy players making their first team debuts.

 

I would not have used the term "frightened". That gives the impression of a team turning up to play saints and quaking in their boots. They expected a tough game and knew that they where not going to win. There is a difference there. You are right that we have become quite predictable, but unfortunately so has everyone else. No team plays like Saints used too. If you go back to when Ian Millward was in charge, we had an attitude that said "you can score 40 but its ok because we will score 50". Which current SL team plays like that now? The answer is nobody and it saddens me to be honest.

 

Also, which games have we won that we should have lost? The saints of old discipline was shocking mate.

 

Finally, I can sit here now and say that we WILL be in the play offs. When we get our players back, we will be a match for anyone. Look at the table, we are 2 points off 3rd spot.



#13 Pugwash

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 05:45 PM

We can debate this until the cows come home but the fact remains that so far this season Saints have had a shocker. Fair enough, injuries are a factor but struggling to beat Widnes and Salfoed is something that in years gone by would never have happened.

Yes Wigan would be weaker minus the players you mention but they are setting the league alight so far, just look at the for and against and it speaks volumes and they had Tomkins out for two or three games.

I will agree with you that if they get their main players back they will be OK as far as the play offs are concerned and that should be what we all want as the top eight without them would be a weaker competition.

If Saints do bite the bullet and stand by Nathan Brown then he has a difficult job at the end of the season as there are some real problems that need addressing and they won't be cheap. I said when KC retired that he had left very big boots to fill, then the halves need sorting out and lets face facts, Wellens will not go on forever he is another that will leave an enormous hole when he retires.

The Super League club claimed that the reason for pulling up the promotion and relegation drawbridge was so they could blood youngsters without the fear of losing their Super League place, now is the time to start doing it and if it means a few lean years whilst the players develop then so be it.

Good luck for the rest of the season, Super League needs a strong St. Helens.

Pugwash.
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DeepakChopra:

"Every time you are tempted to react in the same old way, ask yourself if you want to be a prisoner of the past or a pioneer of the future".


War doesn't decide who is right, just who is left!



Andrew Birch is Pugwash.

#14 no1 saints fan

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 08:14 PM

We can debate this until the cows come home but the fact remains that so far this season Saints have had a shocker. Fair enough, injuries are a factor but struggling to beat Widnes and Salfoed is something that in years gone by would never have happened.

Yes Wigan would be weaker minus the players you mention but they are setting the league alight so far, just look at the for and against and it speaks volumes and they had Tomkins out for two or three games.

I will agree with you that if they get their main players back they will be OK as far as the play offs are concerned and that should be what we all want as the top eight without them would be a weaker competition.

If Saints do bite the bullet and stand by Nathan Brown then he has a difficult job at the end of the season as there are some real problems that need addressing and they won't be cheap. I said when KC retired that he had left very big boots to fill, then the halves need sorting out and lets face facts, Wellens will not go on forever he is another that will leave an enormous hole when he retires.

The Super League club claimed that the reason for pulling up the promotion and relegation drawbridge was so they could blood youngsters without the fear of losing their Super League place, now is the time to start doing it and if it means a few lean years whilst the players develop then so be it.

Good luck for the rest of the season, Super League needs a strong St. Helens.

Pugwash.

 

Nothing like a good old debate Pugwash. These types of forums would be boring without them.

 

We did struggle against Widnes. But so did Warrington. In fact, Widnes beat them. You wouldn't of thought that considering Warrington's success in recent years. Wigan only just managed to beat Cas a few weeks back. These things happen.

 

I'm not even going to comment on the Salford game because the pitch was covered in an inch of snow. Although its funny you mention Salford because in years gone by (in 2005 for example) we only just sneaked a win against them. If it wasn't for Jamie Lyon then we would of lost. So these things have happened before.

 

Regarding the playoffs, you have gone from saying "they may not even get into the top eight playoffs" to "they will be OK as far as the play offs are concerned". Have you made your mind up yet? haha. Sorry. lol

 

There are major problems that need addressing. You're right that they won't be cheap. But we have some big earners who look likely to leave at the end of the season. Players like Wellens and Perry for example. We will have space under the cap to bring some quality in. Wello won't leave a massive hole mate. He's passed it now. We have a better fullback in Lomax. We will also continue to blood youngsters and bring them through. We always have.

 

Recruitment has definately slipped at Saints in recent years. The board have spent most of the time concentrating on the stadium project, and rightly so because it has secured our future, but now is the time to sort the on field issues out.



#15 Anita Bath

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 10:09 PM

"Nothing like a good old debate Pugwash. These types of forums would be boring without them."

 

If only you knew!  This forum has had strict limits put on it on what can be debated - the link with St Helens being one of the verboten topics. 



#16 Pugwash

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 09:55 AM

This forum has had strict limits put on it on what can be debated - the link with St Helens being one of the verboten topics.

There is no limit to what can be debated on this forum, however due to some posters going over the top with accusations and insinuations that they cannot prove that a rule has been re-introduced that any off-field thread will have to be accompanied by the posters real name. This is a rule that has been decided upon because people on this forum keep bringing names of individuals into the debate and accuse them of things they cannot/will not prove. Had this gone on unchecked then the forum was going to be closed down.

If you don't believe me then contact John Drake and he will be happy to give you the SP.

So Anita, if you wish to post about the link with St. Helens concerning play then be my guest, if you want to bring the board into the mix then you will have to include your name so that if you write anything that another individual or group take offence to then, well you get the idea?

To be perfectly frank with you on the link front, everything seems to have quietened down recently as fewer players have been 'inported' and the team has settled down into a definite shape.

OK?

Pugwash.
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DeepakChopra:

"Every time you are tempted to react in the same old way, ask yourself if you want to be a prisoner of the past or a pioneer of the future".


War doesn't decide who is right, just who is left!



Andrew Birch is Pugwash.

#17 Anita Bath

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 12:18 PM

In your own words 'I'm back and with a vengeance!'(April 2nd)

Individuals had asked why the link had not been put to the vote of membership and this was contrasted with what was said about membership having a say on major decisions at the club. No names or individuals were mentioned, but big brother entered and closed down the (healthy) debate.

By all means ban poters who make personal attacks on individuals, but what has happened has limited healthy (and respectful) debate.

#18 Pugwash

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 06:40 PM

In your own words 'I'm back and with a vengeance!'(April 2nd)

Individuals had asked why the link had not been put to the vote of membership and this was contrasted with what was said about membership having a say on major decisions at the club. No names or individuals were mentioned, but big brother entered and closed down the (healthy) debate.

By all means ban poters who make personal attacks on individuals, but what has happened has limited healthy (and respectful) debate.

I'm sorry if you cannot remember the thread but I can and one post made a remark about the board making something out of it, exact words fail me and another complained of deceit which is not allowed on this forum.

If any poster has an objection to a decision made by the board then they should be up front about it and ask the board and if they want to make any assertions then they can do face to face and take the consequences. OK? It's no good coming on here and complaining about the board as the board do not come on here and post.

As I've said, this is only because a few people in the past have been way out of order and through this the forum was threatened with closure.

My reference to being back with a vengeance was to show my displeasure at the way the usual suspects can cause the forum to close and everyone is punished. I'm sure you didn't feel threatened, did you?

What has happened is that there has been too much good news around just lately, you know balancing the books and even making a profit last year and this link was just an excuse to have a go at the club.

You ask why the link wasn't put to a member's vote, but this was a decision made by a democratically elected board. The government doesn't hold a referendum every time they consider making a law, do they. Maybe they didn't have time to put it to the vote as you have to fullfil certain rules as a co-op for member's meetings. One thing is certain though there will be another election later this year so the members can then excercise their right to vote for or with hold their support of anyone they wish. You never got that with the old Rochdale Hornets, did you?

Pugwash.
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DeepakChopra:

"Every time you are tempted to react in the same old way, ask yourself if you want to be a prisoner of the past or a pioneer of the future".


War doesn't decide who is right, just who is left!



Andrew Birch is Pugwash.

#19 Pugwash

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 09:42 AM

ALL poster please note.

Any posts concerning the link with Saints should be done on the pinned topic above. This to avoid this thread from just blundering on when it now has nothing to do with the original content of the thread.

Play nice and I won't need my red pen!

Pugwash.
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DeepakChopra:

"Every time you are tempted to react in the same old way, ask yourself if you want to be a prisoner of the past or a pioneer of the future".


War doesn't decide who is right, just who is left!



Andrew Birch is Pugwash.

#20 SPOTLANDHORNET

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Posted 23 April 2013 - 10:49 AM

I'm sorry if you cannot remember the thread but I can and one post made a remark about the board making something out of it, exact words fail me and another complained of deceit which is not allowed on this forum.

If any poster has an objection to a decision made by the board then they should be up front about it and ask the board and if they want to make any assertions then they can do face to face and take the consequences. OK? It's no good coming on here and complaining about the board as the board do not come on here and post.

As I've said, this is only because a few people in the past have been way out of order and through this the forum was threatened with closure.

My reference to being back with a vengeance was to show my displeasure at the way the usual suspects can cause the forum to close and everyone is punished. I'm sure you didn't feel threatened, did you?

What has happened is that there has been too much good news around just lately, you know balancing the books and even making a profit last year and this link was just an excuse to have a go at the club.

You ask why the link wasn't put to a member's vote, but this was a decision made by a democratically elected board. The government doesn't hold a referendum every time they consider making a law, do they. Maybe they didn't have time to put it to the vote as you have to fullfil certain rules as a co-op for member's meetings. One thing is certain though there will be another election later this year so the members can then excercise their right to vote for or with hold their support of anyone they wish. You never got that with the old Rochdale Hornets, did you?

Pugwash.

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