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7 Reasons why Steve McNamara should wake up, smell the coffee and.....


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#21 South Wakefield Sharks

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 06:08 PM

So one bad game in a nothing game rules him out for good? I don't really follow that logic.

What about all the ineffectual games Sinfield has had for Eng/GB? Do they not count?

And when Brough has a bad game against the Aussies, do we say just "one bad game". Brough on a good day is great, Brough on a bad day is woeful. Sinfield on a good day is very good. Sinfield on a bad day is still pretty good.

We can't pick Brough and hope he has a good day. We need to pick Sinfield, know what we're going to get, and then select players to work with him.

#22 Pottsy

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 06:19 PM

Burrow has been found out,too often he is caught in possession.


I agree. Great impact player but never someone who's capable of controlling a game at club level, let alone in an international.

#23 Pottsy

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 06:20 PM

And when Brough has a bad game against the Aussies, do we say just "one bad game". Brough on a good day is great, Brough on a bad day is woeful. Sinfield on a good day is very good. Sinfield on a bad day is still pretty good.

We can't pick Brough and hope he has a good day. We need to pick Sinfield, know what we're going to get, and then select players to work with him.


You've not really answered the question: what about all the poor/ineffectual games Sinfield has had for GB/England? Don't they count?

#24 stevietomato

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 06:39 PM

I've said for years that we'll never beat the Aussies at their game i.e. a structured game. We have to pick players who can come up with the unexpected like Lee Briers who caused them all sorts of problems when playing for Wales. Broughy is exactly the same with a fantastic kicking game and in partnership with Widdop would be my choice, especially playing behind a decent pack. Unfortunately McNamara has made a rod for his own back by making Sir Kev skipper because he wouldn't get into my team unless O'Loughlin was injured.



#25 South Wakefield Sharks

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 06:44 PM

You've not really answered the question: what about all the poor/ineffectual games Sinfield has had for GB/England? Don't they count?

Sinfield himself says that this is the first time that he feels the national coach actually wants him, and wants him to play for his country, as he plays for his club. I think he's done pretty well in the last two year's, and he's clearly a key part of the Club England make up.

#26 Pottsy

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 07:00 PM

Sinfield himself says that this is the first time that he feels the national coach actually wants him, and wants him to play for his country, as he plays for his club.


I like Sinfield but I think it sounds weak blaming poor performances on not feeling "wanted." In fact, I find it believe that a bloke with Sinfield's character would actually say that.

I think he's done pretty well in the last two year's, and he's clearly a key part of the Club England make up.


He was hit and miss in the Four Nations and last Autumn's internationals proved nothing.

The whole "Club England" schtick makes it sound like a closed shop, which is hardly conducive to drawing out elite performances.

#27 Pottsy

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Posted 21 April 2013 - 07:01 PM

I've said for years that we'll never beat the Aussies at their game i.e. a structured game. We have to pick players who can come up with the unexpected like Lee Briers who caused them all sorts of problems when playing for Wales. Broughy is exactly the same with a fantastic kicking game and in partnership with Widdop would be my choice, especially playing behind a decent pack. Unfortunately McNamara has made a rod for his own back by making Sir Kev skipper because he wouldn't get into my team unless O'Loughlin was injured.


Hard to disagree with most of that.

#28 OMEGA

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 12:08 AM

I've watched Brough throughout his whole career and in the last 4 seasons or so he's been the stand out English available halfback, he's not the ineffectual invisible man you seem driven to convince us he is.

Sinfield has had 30+ international games and apart from one decent performance at hooker he's been awful, he's the John Barnes of Rugby League, great at club level but totally incapable of taking that form into an international match.

People advocating a Widdop/Sinfield combination are too fixated on Sinfield to see how poor that decision would be. Why would you take the form no6 from the NRL and play him at no7 just to shoehorn a proven international failure into the team.

Brough at 7 with Widdop at 6 is the obvious combination to go with because they are the 2 best in form players we have at half back, Broughs kicking game is second to no one and Widdops link play is World class.

The fact that McNamara made him Captain should have no bearing on whether he gets in the starting 17, the 82 Kangaroos came over with recognised halfbacks in Lewis & Mortimer both of whom didn't make the starting line up for the 1st Test. Max Krilich returned hom as Captain of the Invincibles and despite his reputation and the high level of regard for him, he couldn't get into the Manly team because his understudy was in better form.

McNamara should stop showing personal prejudice toward players and pick the best team.

Edited by OMEGA, 22 April 2013 - 12:17 AM.


#29 Pottsy

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 06:17 AM

I've watched Brough throughout his whole career and in the last 4 seasons or so he's been the stand out English available halfback, he's not the ineffectual invisible man you seem driven to convince us he is.

Sinfield has had 30+ international games and apart from one decent performance at hooker he's been awful, he's the John Barnes of Rugby League, great at club level but totally incapable of taking that form into an international match.

People advocating a Widdop/Sinfield combination are too fixated on Sinfield to see how poor that decision would be. Why would you take the form no6 from the NRL and play him at no7 just to shoehorn a proven international failure into the team.

Brough at 7 with Widdop at 6 is the obvious combination to go with because they are the 2 best in form players we have at half back, Broughs kicking game is second to no one and Widdops link play is World class.

The fact that McNamara made him Captain should have no bearing on whether he gets in the starting 17, the 82 Kangaroos came over with recognised halfbacks in Lewis & Mortimer both of whom didn't make the starting line up for the 1st Test. Max Krilich returned hom as Captain of the Invincibles and despite his reputation and the high level of regard for him, he couldn't get into the Manly team because his understudy was in better form.

McNamara should stop showing personal prejudice toward players and pick the best team.


Hard to disagree with most of that either. The worrying thing is that McNamara has painted himself into a corner here; I just hope he's big enough to acknowledge the error and sort it out. I have my doubts though.

#30 XIII

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 09:33 AM

Moving aside from if he is the best player in his position, as captain lets assume he will definately play. the position Sinfield plays is that of first receiver and organiser. Traditionally that would be classed as a 7. It is how Cronk plays for Melbourne with Widdop outside him and is how Sinfield would play for England with either Widdop or Chase outside him. It is also how Sinfield plays for Leeds with Mcguire outside him. So does it really matter if Sinfield is named at 6 with Widdop at 7? I'd say not as which ever way round they are named their roles will remain the same and that is how both play week in week out, maybe except for one of them feeding the scrum. Anyone who suggests Sinfield is these days a loose forward does so with a blinkered view because he wears 13 on his back and no other reason.

#31 clement

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 09:58 AM

2)If you've got a big pack the last thing you need are half backs who run up thier own a***hole which rules out Brough,Sinfield and especially Burrows.To beat a team as good as Australia the whole team have to be reading from the same script.

......pick proper halfbacks in the England side.

1) Kevin Sinfield is a great player for Leeds but England won't win the World Cup with him in the halves (I wouldn't even have him in the starting 13)
2) one thing we will have is a monster pack, so it'd be silly not to pick halfbacks who can take advantage of being on the front foot.
3) Gareth Widdop is carving it up in the NRL; why would he not be first in line for the number six jersey????
4) Matt Smith is improving all the time for Wigan. He might not be a world class No.7 yet but Sinfield NEVER will be!
5) Brough may well have driven over McNamara's cat for all I know, but the fact remains that he's been the dominant English half in super league. Swallow your pride, admit you were wrong and pick him before he decides he's Scottish again!
6) how many England/GB coaches have to lose series with locks playing in the halves before the penny drops? It doesn't work!
7) as Wayne Bennett once wrote: "if you do what you always did, you'll get what you always got."

Come on McNamara, make a smart choice for once. We may not win the World Cup anyway, but let's at least give it a bloody good go!



#32 OMEGA

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 10:06 AM

2)If you've got a big pack the last thing you need are half backs who run up thier own a***hole which rules out Brough,Sinfield and especially Burrows.To beat a team as good as Australia the whole team have to be reading from the same script.


Yeah because behind Huddersfields midget pack Brough is a complete liability, what with running up his own A-Hole an all.

#33 clement

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 10:07 AM

But with all due respect Sir Kev won't be up against the likes of London,Widnes,Salford etc.

Sinfield himself says that this is the first time that he feels the national coach actually wants him, and wants him to play for his country, as he plays for his club. I think he's done pretty well in the last two year's, and he's clearly a key part of the Club England make up.



#34 terrywebbisgod

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 10:12 AM

Clement won't be watching after 10 minutes anyway.By the way,it's BURROW,no "S"


Edited by terrywebbisgod, 22 April 2013 - 10:13 AM.

Once you have tasted excellence,you cannot go back to mediocrity.

#35 Harrigan

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 10:20 AM

i would like to see widdop and a "fit "-"in form" rob burrow working behind a pack inc burgess graham hock and o loughlin

Seriously, just no!

I don't mean to sound condescending, but there is a reason Rob Burrow can't even get the 7 shirt at Leeds and was close to leaving a couple of years back before his move to dummy half.

His game management is awful, he can't pass accurately further than 5 yards and his kicking is below average for a half.

His game was built on broken defense running. Once defences started to get better in SL, Rob's game began to decline! He continuously ran up blind alleys and took the wrong option over and over. He was beginning to hurt the Leeds team. I was saying he shouldn't be our 7 for 2 years on SouthStander (to a lot of criticism) before McDermott came in and moved him.

At Dummy Half he gets early ball so every so often he gets a bit of broken play in front of him and you see a bit of his old self. He also doesn't have to pass more than a few yards at a time and never kicks these days.

Burrow will be I the test team, but as the interchange DH to try and capitalise if our pack wears the opposition down.

Edited by Harrigan, 22 April 2013 - 10:22 AM.

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#36 Pottsy

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 11:59 AM

Anyone who suggests Sinfield is these days a loose forward does so with a blinkered view because he wears 13 on his back and no other reason.


You're right. Kevin Sinfield definitely isn't a top class loose forward, particularly with the way the role has evolved, and there's no way he should be selected at 13 for England (Burgess should get the nod).

The problem is, he isn't a world class halfback either.

The grim reality is this: Kev's a fantastic captain, a great bloke and a hugely influential player at club level. The problem is, he doesn't do any single thing (other than kicking) to warrant a starting berth at international level.

#37 XIII

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 12:26 PM

You're right. Kevin Sinfield definitely isn't a top class loose forward, particularly with the way the role has evolved, and there's no way he should be selected at 13 for England (Burgess should get the nod).
The problem is, he isn't a world class halfback either.
The grim reality is this: Kev's a fantastic captain, a great bloke and a hugely influential player at club level. The problem is, he doesn't do any single thing (other than kicking) to warrant a starting berth at international level.


My 13 would be O'Loughlin as he tidies everything up in defence and is very good with ball in hand too, very underrated. I think how Sinfield captains and organises (which he is world class at) are likely things we as fans overlook in their importance as we want explosiveness. My mind isn't 100% made up on if he should be in the 13, although I can see the merits of why he is for Steve McNamara.

#38 Walt1992

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 12:53 PM

Its a fact that whilst Kevin Sinfield is playing as half back for england that we wont beat the Aussies. He does everything he needs to and he does it well but to beat the Aussies with the squad we have we need an x-factor that can produce a try from nothing, because there is no doubt that man for man we are the weaker team.

 

Sinfield doesnt offer this x-factor, Brough does. Brough's in-play kicking is as good as anyones in super league and he has the turn of pace to beat a man at will, and his defence isn't half as bad as half the media make it out to be. He has added a solidarity and consistency to his game since joining Huddersfield as well as displaying leadership skills; to ignore his skill for any longer at international level would be criminal.

 

And to suggest that he blew his chance against the exiles is rubbish, the whole team that day were woeful but you cant right him off after that, the super league form he has shown for the past few years is very much worthy of selection. A Brough and Widdop partnership for me is as good as it will get, with Burrow offering support on the bench and the likes of Myler and Smith competing also



#39 petero

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 04:02 PM

......pick proper halfbacks in the England side.

1) Kevin Sinfield is a great player for Leeds but England won't win the World Cup with him in the halves (I wouldn't even have him in the starting 13)
2) one thing we will have is a monster pack, so it'd be silly not to pick halfbacks who can take advantage of being on the front foot.
3) Gareth Widdop is carving it up in the NRL; why would he not be first in line for the number six jersey????
4) Matt Smith is improving all the time for Wigan. He might not be a world class No.7 yet but Sinfield NEVER will be!
5) Brough may well have driven over McNamara's cat for all I know, but the fact remains that he's been the dominant English half in super league. Swallow your pride, admit you were wrong and pick him before he decides he's Scottish again!
6) how many England/GB coaches have to lose series with locks playing in the halves before the penny drops? It doesn't work!
7) as Wayne Bennett once wrote: "if you do what you always did, you'll get what you always got."

Come on McNamara, make a smart choice for once. We may not win the World Cup anyway, but let's at least give it a bloody good go!

 

Not that this will come as any surprise( especially to Terryweb....) but I find myself in practically total agreement with all that you say, that is apart from the onus on Brough as our scrum/half.

 

Realistically Sinfield practically cements his place even if only for his goalkicking, although I do think that there should be a better alternative to having him on and supposedly bossing the team and generally running the show with everything having to go through him.

This method has been tried, tested and proven a failure on too many occasions to date and as you say, will fail yet again if implemented in the same old manner.

 

I do agree likewise that I to would omit Sinfield entirely, for once again 'as you say' and which is a point I am fed up also of making, he does not have the ability that shines through so well at and for Leeds, when he is pitted against the best from the S/Hemi. 

God knows that after the first 40 minutes of play in the Anzac test last Saturday he will certainly have to be able to do so, possibly more than ever previously too. 

 

On Brough I do go the opposite way simply because of his inconsistency, which in my opinion is his most obvious trait. On his day he could do what is required from him but, off it he would be absolutely diabolical, unfortunately from what I have seen of him those latter days do tend to outweigh the former and heavily too.

So for once I can see why MacNamara has leant the way he does where Brough is concerned, not for me at all either despite his obvious talents.  



#40 Pottsy

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Posted 22 April 2013 - 05:32 PM

See where you're coming from re: Brough.

However, when you consider that Chase has been McNamara's No.7 of choice, it kind of makes you wonder whether consistency is a factor or not. I like Chase for Cas but I don't think I've seen him play well for England yet.

For me, Brough is the most viable option out of him, Myler, Smith, Robinson etc at this time.




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