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Why a GB tour in 2015 is deeply flawed


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#81 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 07:08 AM

http://www.guardian....gbyleague.sport

I found this article quoting Richard Lewis in 2007 as saying "The idea that we've had to do it for Sport England funding is a myth. They've always said it's irrelevant whether we play as England or Great Britain. It's purely about strategy for the international game." This of course doesn't state whether Sport Wales or the Scottish or Irish equivalents would think the same, but I genuinely don't remember any comments from RFL officials stating that the motivation behind the move was to get more funding. Happy to be proved wrong though.

Fair play on that one. I'm still pretty sure I've read somewhere about the others getting more funding for their respective nations for development. Ireland also apparently don't want to be associated with the GB brand.
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#82 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 07:10 AM

You've misunderstood my proposal in one of my earlier posts. I'm suggesting that the home nations play their internationals during the summer, and then come together to play as GB in the Autumn (excluding World Cup years). That way they would always have first choice of their players in the Summer, and said players would also have the opportunity to play at the highest level in the Autmn.

Fair enough. I just don't see the point. GB would just be England in disguise. You're basically stopping 3 nations playing in the Autumn for the sake of a historic name that isn't actually a nation.

And why not GB for the RLWC?
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#83 RugbyLeagueGeek

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 07:19 AM

And why not GB for the RLWC?

Because the RLWC allows the Celtic nations to play on the highest stage on an equal footing with England (i.e. players get the same playing opportunity). For the most part, 4N or Test series don't (the nature of the 4N being that only one celtic nations team  can be able to qualify to compete for a tournament played in the northern hemisphere every couple of years at best).

 

We only need to look at the number of high profile players who will confirm their availability for these celtic teams this year because of the world cup (e.g. talk of Danny Brough again playing for Scotland), but who are conspicuous by their absense when it's a much more low-key international.


Edited by RugbyLeagueGeek, 25 April 2013 - 07:29 AM.


#84 MOT

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 07:37 AM

Because the RLWC allows the Celtic nations to play on the highest stage on an equal footing with England (i.e. players get the same playing opportunity). For the most part, 4N or Test series don't (the nature of the 4N being that only one celtic nations team  can be able to qualify to compete for a tournament played in the northern hemisphere every couple of years at best).

 

We only need to look at the number of high profile players who will confirm their availability for these celtic teams this year because of the world cup (e.g. talk of Danny Brough again playing for Scotland), but who are conspicuous by their absense when it's a much more low-key international.

The likes of Danny Brough etc are a large part of the issue internationally. It's far too easy to switch and seemingly switch back again as and when it suits. If, taking Brough for example, had to stick with whichever international side he initially opted to play for would he A)Be happy to sit on the sidelines or in the crowd watching England or B)Take more of an interest in improving the Scottish international side?



#85 RugbyLeagueGeek

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 07:42 AM

The likes of Danny Brough etc are a large part of the issue internationally. It's far too easy to switch and seemingly switch back again as and when it suits. If, taking Brough for example, had to stick with whichever international side he initially opted to play for would he A)Be happy to sit on the sidelines or in the crowd watching England or B)Take more of an interest in improving the Scottish international side?

Totally agree - the constant switching on nations is a pain. Something that would help make his decision would be (a) to have more meaningful games for Scotland, and (B) retain the opportunity to play at the highest level against the likes of Aus or NZ



#86 roughyedspud

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 07:52 AM

danny brough has'nt played a test for england......thats why its so easy for him to "switch back" to scotland....under RLIF law he's still a scotland player and has been since he last played for scotland in 2010


also having GB to give players a opportunity to play against AUS or NZ is the biggest myth put out there by pro-GB fans

if GB play against australia or NZ every 4 years.... and ENGLAND play against australia & NZ 3 years out of 4.....celtic players will still ditch wales,scotland & ireland for england so they get the opportunity 3 years out of 4.....instead of having to wait 4 years for GB and the slight chance they might get selected..

Edited by roughyedspud, 25 April 2013 - 08:10 AM.

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#87 thirteenthman

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 08:07 AM




also having GB to give players a opportunity to play against AUS or NZ is the biggest myth put out there by pro-GB fans

if GB play agsint australia or NZ every 4 years.... and ENGLAND play against australia & NZ 3 years out of 4.....celtic players will still ditch wales,scotland & ireland for england so they get the opportunity 3 years out of 4.....instead of having to wait 4 years for GB and the slight chance they might get selected..

 

On that point I'd agree. If the plan is simply to have a GB team once every 4 years, it won't stop potential Celtic players playing for England at all. It's a sort of half way house designed merely as a way of bringing back the GB name. If Wales, Ireland and Scotland could compete with England, then I'd see a reason to have a GB team every 4 years, but if its just going to be the England team, there's no point. If the idea is to stop the likes of Brough from wanting to switch from Scotland, then you have to bring back the GB team full time. As ever with international RL though, we don't actually know what the plan is.



#88 roughyedspud

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 08:23 AM

but if brough can't catch the england team he's not going to get selected for GB playing for scotland is he !! lol

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#89 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 09:02 AM

Because the RLWC allows the Celtic nations to play on the highest stage on an equal footing with England (i.e. players get the same playing opportunity).

An equal footing? They're in a weighted group!

Last RLWC saw Scotland in a tiny group to play France, Fiji and then Tonga in a 7th place play-off.
This one sees them play Tonga, Italy and then USA in a cross-group match. If they get through that, they get a shot at (most likely) New Zealand.

If they win a series against Wales, France and Ireland, they get a shot in the 4N against all three big nations.

They have just as much chance qualifying for the 4N as they do the WC Quarter Finals.

For the most part, 4N or Test series don't (the nature of the 4N being that only one celtic nations team can be able to qualify to compete for a tournament played in the northern hemisphere every couple of years at best).

And the WC offers more opportunity? It's played once every 4 years for a start, so that's half the opportunity gone of the 4N.

And 1 team from 4 able to qualify for the 4N as opposed to 1 team in 6 able to qualify for the RLWC semi final in 08?
And then depending on which group you're in this year, 2 teams from 6 and 6 teams from 8 to qualify for the quarters of a tournament that is scheduled to be played every 4 years?

I'd hardly say that there is any more opportunity, nor equality, for Celtic teams in the RLWC than in a qualifying tournament for the 4N. It's on a bigger stage as it's all televised, but that just means we need to big up the European Cup more.

We only need to look at the number of high profile players who will confirm their availability for these celtic teams this year because of the world cup (e.g. talk of Danny Brough again playing for Scotland), but who are conspicuous by their absense when it's a much more low-key international.

What high profile players?
Danny Brough played for Scotland in many "low-key" games, including the 2010 European Cup for Scotland to help them qualify for the European Cup. His selection for Scotland has nothing to do with the RLWC. The second he was in with a shout for England, he switched.

Mark Calderwood had the chance to represent both Scotland and England in the last RLWC. Originally announced in the Scotland squad, he ditched them to join England. Where was the lure of representing a Celtic side at the RLWC there?

It is a lie that a shot at GB would stop players jumping ship from the Celts at World Cups. If Danny Brough had a choice in the last WC, he'd have been English.
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#90 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 09:04 AM


Totally agree - the constant switching on nations is a pain. Something that would help make his decision would be (a) to have more meaningful games for Scotland, and (B) retain the opportunity to play at the highest level against the likes of Aus or NZ


If it affects their chance of winning a World Cup with England, why would any player switch to a Celtic side?
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#91 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 09:08 AM

On that point I'd agree. If the plan is simply to have a GB team once every 4 years, it won't stop potential Celtic players playing for England at all. It's a sort of half way house designed merely as a way of bringing back the GB name. If Wales, Ireland and Scotland could compete with England, then I'd see a reason to have a GB team every 4 years, but if its just going to be the England team, there's no point. If the idea is to stop the likes of Brough from wanting to switch from Scotland, then you have to bring back the GB team full time. As ever with international RL though, we don't actually know what the plan is.

Exactly.

This is why I don't get the argument people keep putting out about having GB in 4N games and home nations for the WC either. Do people really think players like Brough and McIllorum would happily sacrifice any shot at winning the World Cup to represent a heritage nation just because they can play for GB the rest of the time? Seriously?

As long as the home nations are split in any way whatsoever, England will pull the cream of the talent. And so they bloody should! They produced them!
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#92 Baaarrow

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 09:09 AM

England, Wales, Scotland and Ireland should have regular meaningful fixtures scheduled throughout the year. Then select the best from these teams to represent GB in 4N and test series. If players are serious about having an international career, the current system precludes players from selecting Wales, Scotland and Ireland (as has been discussed on here numerous times before). Therefore the split into the home nations is actually weakening the celtic teams as opposed to strengthening them. See England cricket for example (Eoin Morgan et al) and Rhys Evans from Warrington.

Spot on !!!!

Let's go back to GB and have players earn a GB shirt by playing for the home nations in regular tournaments.

The sport lost alot of credibility and support when it ditched the GB brand !


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#93 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 09:26 AM

Spot on !!!!
Let's go back to GB and have players earn a GB shirt by playing for the home nations in regular tournaments.
The sport lost alot of credibility and support when it ditched the GB brand !

No it didn't at all. If anything, it gained it by having a more consistent international programme.

A home nations tournament wouldn't affect selection at all. No one at present from the Celtic nations would have a shot at qualifying, and if they did they'd do it through playing SL or NRL, not this home nations walkover for England.
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#94 Dave T

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Posted 25 April 2013 - 09:46 AM

but if brough can't catch the england team he's not going to get selected for GB playing for scotland is he !! lol

Depends who the coach is.

 

There are plenty of people calling for Brough to be at 7.






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