Jump to content


Rugby League World Issue 400 - Out Now!

RUGBY LEAGUE WORLD MAGAZINE - ISSUE 400 - OUT NOW!
84 pages, 38 years of history from Open Rugby to the present day.
Click here for the digital edition to read online via smartphone, tablet and desktop devices including iPhone, iPad, Android & Kindle HD.
Click here to order a copy for delivery by post. Annual subscriptions also available worldwide.
Find out what's inside Issue 400
/ View a Gallery of all 400 covers / WH Smith Branches stocking Issue 400
Read Jamie Jones-Buchanan's Top 5 RLW Interviews including Marwan Koukash, Lee Briers, Gareth Thomas, Steve Ganson & Matt King OBE


League Express

Podcast

Photo
* * * * * 1 votes

Farage poles the electorate


  • Please log in to reply
339 replies to this topic

#321 ckn

ckn
  • Admin
  • 16,549 posts

Posted 17 May 2013 - 08:18 PM

My wife asked me if I think Farage is secretly campaigning for separation as there's no other serious reason for why he'd go out of his way to annoy the Scots.


Arguing with the forum trolls is like playing chess with a pigeon.  No matter how good you are, the bird will **** on the board and strut around like it won anyway


#322 Northern Sol

Northern Sol
  • Moderator
  • 16,927 posts

Posted 17 May 2013 - 09:02 PM

really? you actualy believe that?

Yes. He was an MP at Westminster for years. Remind me of any such "incidents".



#323 Northern Sol

Northern Sol
  • Moderator
  • 16,927 posts

Posted 17 May 2013 - 09:04 PM

It is certainly a contrast to the relative free ride he gets in England, that is true, but the higher you climb...

I don't think being able to talk to journalists without being surrounded and threatened to the point that the police are worried about your safety constitutes a "free ride". He might be an odious toe-rag but even so basic human rights still apply.



#324 Northern Sol

Northern Sol
  • Moderator
  • 16,927 posts

Posted 17 May 2013 - 09:18 PM

As someone else said, this was Farage merely enjoying a good night out in Edinburgh.
 

It starts off with a quiet drink, and your intention is just to have a couple.

 

Then, as sure as night follows day, things get a bit more hectic and you end up involved in a pub lock-in.

 

When you eventually emerge, and want to get home, passing taxi drivers take one look and drive off.

As a finale, you get involved in a street rammy and you get lifted and driven away by the polis!

 

On a more serious note, Farage's, and the Telegraph's, attempts to link the demonstration to Scottish nationalism in general, and the SNP in particular, are, as you would perhaps expect, completely wide of the mark. The protest was organised by a group called Radical Independence Conference, a grouping of socialists, trade unionists, anti-war campaigners, republicans, artists and environmentalists who see themselves as a non-nationalist alternative campaign for independence. They sent out the notification/invitation mid-afternoon so demonstrators would have been locals, students and, it seems, a few disability campaigners. 

The main focus of the demonstration was ant-racism, as shown in the main explanation on the invitation "UKIP racists not welcome in Scotland". This sort of demonstration does tend to take place whenever a perceived racist, extreme right-wing grouping tries to demonstrate in Edinburgh (and it usually is Edinburgh rather than Glasgow, for some reason). The BNP and the EDL ('trading as' SDL, but on one occasion seeming to be largely made up of Burnley and Aston Villa fans :D ) have experienced more robust 'welcomes' than Farage had to endure.

Farage seemed very quick to brand the opposition to him and his party as being 'anti-English', and I'm convinced that this was one purpose of his visit. He has stated that UKIP are going after the SNP vote - bizarre as they about as far apart as you can get in the British politics - so perhaps he thought a demonstration like he faced would show the nationalists in a bad light. To re-iterate, the demonstration had nothing to do with the SNP or the official Yes campaign, Yes Scotland. Also, according to one young English woman who was part of the demonstration, there were many English people taking part.

One last thing, and it may just illustrate Farrage's lack of understanding of Scotland. He was in Edinburgh to introduce the candidate and launch the UKIP campaign for the forthcoming by-election in Aberdeen Donside. I'm not sure whether he thinks the constituency is a suburb of the capital, but it didn't look good - especially to the people of Aberdeen!

 

I think it does take a certain degree of chutzpah to say that a pro-independence group is nothing to do with Scottish nationalism. It would be like claiming that Farrage wasn't unionist on the grounds that he isn't a Tory and not part of the official pro-union campaign.



#325 Methven Hornet

Methven Hornet
  • Coach
  • 9,471 posts

Posted 17 May 2013 - 09:44 PM

To be fair what happened when Salmond resigned from the leadership a few years ago? Did the SNP push on or flounder? They might be able to get away without him now, but they certainly lost ground when he stepped back last time.

 

His first period of leadership was disappointing in that the party constantly failed to make the breakthrough in Westminster elections. The reason? Many thousands of potential supporters opted for Labour in the hope that, this time, they would depose the Tories. Following 1997, there was Blair and a resurgent Labour Party to contend with, plus the new devolution settlement. Although they were to play a successful part in campaigning for the new parliament, their failure in the consequent elections left the party somewhat grounded. He quit amid reported clashes with others in the party and made for Westminster at the next UK election.

As a leader, er, John Swinney makes a good finance minister. It wasn't a happy time for him. Although a good MP/MSP, he was never an inspiring speaker, and the SNP did not thrive under him. Labour and the Lib Dems were making a good fist of governing at Holyrood, Blair was at his prime, and it became obvious that change was needed. The problem was who would replace him? Sturgeon had the potential she is now fulfilling, but she was young and inexperienced. As I remember it, Salmond had to be almost dragged, kicking and screaming, from Westminster - he loved the place - on the understanding that Nicola would be his understudy.

He led the party, by one seat, to victory in 2007.

So, while the party didn't thrive in his absence, it didn't exactly hit the heights in his first period either.

2011, with the Tories back at Westminster and Labour discredited (and the Scottish party totally negative and directionless) was another story.

 


"There are now more pandas in Scotland than Tory MPs."

#326 Methven Hornet

Methven Hornet
  • Coach
  • 9,471 posts

Posted 17 May 2013 - 10:05 PM

My wife asked me if I think Farage is secretly campaigning for separation as there's no other serious reason for why he'd go out of his way to annoy the Scots.

 

He has stated, bizarrely, that he wants to target the SNP vote. Perhaps, in his ignorance, he calculated that any protest would reflect badly on the SNP; he did seem very quick to blame the SNP and Scottish Nationalism, even though it was obvious to anyone with any knowledge of Scottish politics that this was nothing to do with SNP or nationalism. Aggressive street protest just isn't the SNP's style (coffee mornings, yes; bring and buy sales, occasionally; street-fighting men, not really). Whenever the BNP or the EDL/SDL come to town, you'll get SNP councillors joining in the official protest march with Labour, Lib Dems, the trade unions and other 'respectable' community organisations. But 'in your face' haranguing of political opponents? No.

But why would people who vote for a party that has shown that it will stand up for Scottish interests, and campaigns for Scottish sovereignty, suddenly switch to a party that, effectively, wants to abolish the limited home rule we have now?

There may be a electoral market out there for the sort of strident British nationalism Farage represents (although I believe the Tories and Labour have that sewn up between them :D ) but there is no sign of it manifesting itself. At a recent council by-election in Coatbridge, a flute-playing bandsman ;) attracted just 34 votes. And that just about sums up UKIP's electoral history in Scotland. 


"There are now more pandas in Scotland than Tory MPs."

#327 Northern Sol

Northern Sol
  • Moderator
  • 16,927 posts

Posted 17 May 2013 - 11:22 PM

; he did seem very quick to blame the SNP and Scottish Nationalism, even though it was obvious to anyone with any knowledge of Scottish politics that this was nothing to do with SNP or nationalism. Aggressive street protest just isn't the SNP's style (coffee mornings, yes; bring and buy sales, occasionally; street-fighting men, not really). Whenever the BNP or the EDL/SDL come to town, you'll get SNP councillors joining in the official protest march with Labour, Lib Dems, the trade unions and other 'respectable' community organisations. But 'in your face' haranguing of political opponents? No.

It's nothing to do with the SNP but it is everything to do with Scottish nationalism. There has long been a very nasty underside to Scottish nationalism, have you forgotten Settler Watch? Even card carrying members of the SNP can be honest enough to admit this.



#328 Methven Hornet

Methven Hornet
  • Coach
  • 9,471 posts

Posted 18 May 2013 - 04:15 AM

http://www.guardian....-scotland-press

 

"Last night Ukip was met directly on the streets of Edinburgh by a well-organised group run by the Radical Independence Conference (RIC) – leaving the allegations being flung about by Farage on the Today programme that this was "fascist #### filled with total and utter hatred of the English" as little more than pitiful irony. The group's slogan – "Another Scotland is possible" – reflects the movement's roots in radical and left-green politics. They are as far away from being fascists as Farage is from being elected north of Gretna. They, like many, are interested in "independence without nationalism"."

 

One spokesman for RIC, who appeared on BBC Scotland, is actually a member of the Labour Party.


"There are now more pandas in Scotland than Tory MPs."

#329 Northern Sol

Northern Sol
  • Moderator
  • 16,927 posts

Posted 18 May 2013 - 08:33 AM

You are conflating two different uses of the word "nationalism".

 

In British politics, it usually means someone who believes in greater autonomy or independence for their "nation" from the UK. By this definition, they are undeniably nationalists. Almost all British nationalist movements are rooted in the politics of the left, I'm scratching my head to think of a single exception; you might find some tiny right-wing pro-English independence groups but that;s about it.

 

There is a second meaning, someone who thinks that their nation is better than other nations. The BNP / EDL are nationalists in this sense. The vast majority of Scottish nationalists are not. This tends to be connected to the conservative right and the far-right.

 

When they say that they want independence without nationalism, they are using the second meaning of the word. 


Edited by Northern Sol, 18 May 2013 - 08:36 AM.


#330 JohnM

JohnM
  • Coach
  • 19,629 posts

Posted 18 May 2013 - 10:18 AM

It is clear to me at least that the people who abused Farage were not representative of the views of the vast majority of Scots. In fact, they played right into his hands!

 

Having worked, holidayed and visited friends and relatives in Scotland from Dounreay to Dumfries  and Edinburgh to Ecclefechan for 43 years, I have to say that I have never experienced any meaningful levels of anti-English prejudice or feeling. From time to time I have come across a sort of “don’t you come here trying to tell us what to do” attitude from a tiny minority or “if you don’t have the right money, get off my bus” attitude from one person.  I have also sensed in a very few people a sort of dependency resentment towards England and a unwillingness to listen to input and advice about Scottish independence. To be honest, I have witnessed more criticism of Salmond from the Scots  than from the English.

 

Scotland has a population of some 5.3 million ( 2011 figure) and a GDP including oil of 216 billion US$ compared with a English population of 53 million (2011 figure) and a  GDP of just over 2,000 billion US$ excluding Scotland, Wales etc. To put that in perspective, Scotland is roughly similar to the industrial west midlands and the devolved parliament similar in responsibilities to say what used to be the West Midlands County Council. Anyone who was watched the live transmission of debates from Holyrood will see the similarities. Thus Alex Salmond’s role is more like that of a Council leader than a Prime Minister. Thus in my view the one man band epithet is spot on, though I would not like to be unfair to the supporting players who are more like councillors than real ministers.

 

Of course, none of that detracts from the arguments for full Scottish independence, which I whole heartedly support and would welcome as soon as possible.

 

One point about Salmond, though, to give him credit.  He has been as effective in sorting out the Edinburgh tram system ( see http://en.wikipedia....Edinburgh_Trams ) as successive British Prime Ministers were at sorting out Crossrail. If he want people to take him seriously as a potential leader of a country, sorting that out would be a start.



#331 Methven Hornet

Methven Hornet
  • Coach
  • 9,471 posts

Posted 19 May 2013 - 08:33 PM

I've done a bit of digging and asked around, and it seems that the following were the sort of people involved in organising the Farage demonstration (I don't need to put people's names - I've checked and it's all out there on the web if you're that interested).

JM, president of the Edinburgh College Students' Association. No connection with the SNP as far as I can establish, but, obviously involved with student campaigning.

 

Quoted on the BBC "We organised yesterday’s protest against Farage out of a belief that UKIP’s policies are fundamentally rotten. Their headline five-year immigration freeze is not only completely disconnected from reality, but is a policy that neither the people of Scotland nor the rest of the United Kingdom would stomach.

 
"His regressive and repugnant ideology is not far removed from that of the BNP – just dressed in a better-fitting suit. We care deeply about the need to reduce inequality in society, not foster it. A society that accepts ideas like his being allowed to breed and multiply is not a safe society for any of us. The only result is a society of hatred."

MS, president of Edinburgh University Students' Association's Socialist Society.

Quote from Twitter: "Ukip protest yesterday branded as 'anti-English'. As a proud Englishman, arrested yesterday for protesting, I dispute these claims."
 
"His regressive and repugnant ideology is not far removed from that of the BNP - just dressed in a better-fitting suit."
 
No obvious connection with the SNP or the Yes campaign or any nationalism of any kind!

LOH, involved with Radical Independence Conference (as stated previously, they describe themselves as campaigning for Independence without Nationalism).

Quoted on the BBC: "Farage's attempts to paint our protest as anti-English is pathetic. Our vision is for a Scotland that welcomes people from across the world, including England. This is the exact opposite of Farage and Ukip's vision for Scotland, which is a parochial, bigoted British nationalism. We're against his racist ideas, not where he comes from."

MC, EUSA Vice President - Services (Sabbatical Officer). Socialist and actually a member of the Labour Party
 
Not a nationalist amongst them!

And there was little evidence of anyone from the SNP actually being there.

This wasn't a demonstration against British nationalism by people who see UKIP as a threat to the campaign for independence. It was organised as a demo against racism.

"There are now more pandas in Scotland than Tory MPs."

#332 Methven Hornet

Methven Hornet
  • Coach
  • 9,471 posts

Posted 19 May 2013 - 08:52 PM

It will be a great shame that Scotland i think will NOT vote for independence they will sadly vote with their wallets:) to keep milking the english.

Hopefully we can throw them out of the union and then have a modern day version of hadrian,s wall erected to keep out all those nasty left wing MP,s who have the cheek to sit in the commons in London telling us english how to run our affairs.

CM

 

If we were to vote with our wallets, based on the available information, we'd be out of the Union like a shot. It isn't as simple as that, though, and one of the major issues holding people from coming out in support of independence is the regard in which we hold the other peoples of the UK.

One of the main sentimental arguments the unionists use is, to paraphrase, "don't abandon the English to permanent Tory government". A completely false argument, by the way as, with just 59 MPs out of 650, we very rarely influence the results of Westminster elections. As for left-wing MPs, the vast majority of those we send to Westminster are Labour; the Labour Party in Scotland is not a left-wing party, neither are they particularly centre-left.

And as for Hadrian's wall, I am absolutely certain that the nationalists campaigning for independence are making no territorial demands other than for the current jurisdiction of Scotland. If you see the border as being Hadrian's Wall, and are prepared to expel Northumberland (including much of Newcastle), then I'm sure something could be arranged for those people.  :shout:


"There are now more pandas in Scotland than Tory MPs."

#333 Methven Hornet

Methven Hornet
  • Coach
  • 9,471 posts

Posted 19 May 2013 - 09:31 PM

It is clear to me at least that the people who abused Farage were not representative of the views of the vast majority of Scots. In fact, they played right into his hands!

 

Having worked, holidayed and visited friends and relatives in Scotland from Dounreay to Dumfries  and Edinburgh to Ecclefechan for 43 years, I have to say that I have never experienced any meaningful levels of anti-English prejudice or feeling. From time to time I have come across a sort of “don’t you come here trying to tell us what to do” attitude from a tiny minority or “if you don’t have the right money, get off my bus” attitude from one person.  I have also sensed in a very few people a sort of dependency resentment towards England and a unwillingness to listen to input and advice about Scottish independence. To be honest, I have witnessed more criticism of Salmond from the Scots  than from the English.

 

Scotland has a population of some 5.3 million ( 2011 figure) and a GDP including oil of 216 billion US$ compared with a English population of 53 million (2011 figure) and a  GDP of just over 2,000 billion US$ excluding Scotland, Wales etc. To put that in perspective, Scotland is roughly similar to the industrial west midlands and the devolved parliament similar in responsibilities to say what used to be the West Midlands County Council. Anyone who was watched the live transmission of debates from Holyrood will see the similarities. Thus Alex Salmond’s role is more like that of a Council leader than a Prime Minister. Thus in my view the one man band epithet is spot on, though I would not like to be unfair to the supporting players who are more like councillors than real ministers.

 

Of course, none of that detracts from the arguments for full Scottish independence, which I whole heartedly support and would welcome as soon as possible.

 

One point about Salmond, though, to give him credit.  He has been as effective in sorting out the Edinburgh tram system ( see http://en.wikipedia....Edinburgh_Trams ) as successive British Prime Ministers were at sorting out Crossrail. If he want people to take him seriously as a potential leader of a country, sorting that out would be a start.

 

Misinformed rubbish! Can you perhaps outline the legislative record of the West Midlands County Council? It's achievements in land reform, electoral reform, maintaining free higher education?

And just because a nation is only just over 5.25 million does not make it unusual. Should Scotland become independent it would come around the middle of a table of nations ordered by population, and towards the top of the table of GDP per head of population.

As for the Edinburgh trams, have you read the link you've posted? The minority SNP government tried to 'sort it out' but were voted down by the combined ranks of Labour, Tory and Lib Dem MSPs.

With respect, however, we're here to discuss Farage and UKIP, so let's not get distracted. I'm involved with a lot of debates and initiatives surrounding the referendum campaign - with people who actually have the vote - so I'm somewhat less than interested in challenging and correcting the views of those not involved.  Sorry!  :tongue: 

I come on here to expose and wind up right-wingers!  ;)  


"There are now more pandas in Scotland than Tory MPs."

#334 Methven Hornet

Methven Hornet
  • Coach
  • 9,471 posts

Posted 19 May 2013 - 09:42 PM

To return to the subject, the pub involved in the Farage farrago, the Canons’ Gait, is a traditional music venue. Hot off the 'press' is organiser's Steve Byrne's song about the event: ’Lament on the predicament of the Member of the European Parliament for South East England’. See the link below (it is quite long, so the lyrics are posted):-

 

http://nationalcolle...nburghs-lament/


"There are now more pandas in Scotland than Tory MPs."

#335 JohnM

JohnM
  • Coach
  • 19,629 posts

Posted 19 May 2013 - 10:07 PM

Misinformed rubbish! Can you perhaps outline the legislative record of the West Midlands County Council? It's achievements in land reform, electoral reform, maintaining free higher education?

And just because a nation is only just over 5.25 million does not make it unusual. Should Scotland become independent it would come around the middle of a table of nations ordered by population, and towards the top of the table of GDP per head of population.

As for the Edinburgh trams, have you read the link you've posted? The minority SNP government tried to 'sort it out' but were voted down by the combined ranks of Labour, Tory and Lib Dem MSPs.

With respect, however, we're here to discuss Farage and UKIP, so let's not get distracted. I'm involved with a lot of debates and initiatives surrounding the referendum campaign - with people who actually have the vote - so I'm somewhat less than interested in challenging and correcting the views of those not involved.  Sorry!  :tongue: 

I come on here to expose and wind up right-wingers!  ;)  

 

 

  ....and here's us thinking you come on here because you have no friends. :tease:

 

so if you are  "somewhat less than interested in challenging and correcting the views of those not involved." why do you always rise to the bait? In my experience, not all Scots are as touchy as you.  yes, a population of just over five million doesn't make it unusual, but it doesn't half make it easy to run using other peoples money and pretending to be more important than it really is.

 

Alex Salmond earlier today, getting ready to address  Nigel Farage.

 

one-man-band.jpg

 

We are always being told that Salmond can do everythin, but not much hope for an independent Scotland if the govt can't sort out a piddling little tram. :taunt:   

 

Sure I don't have a vote in the referendum, mores the pity, for I'd be right up there voting to get rid of a millstone from round the necks of the English, the Scottish dependency culture.    Unfortunately, Scotland is not yet independent, so I guess we have to put up with your MPs voting at our Westminster. Just a pity that more don't follow Gordon Browns example and  take the money without voting. They'd do less damage that way! 

 

Anyway, back on track, its great to see Farage getting the backs up of Salmond...long may it continue.

 

And expose right wingers?  You really have no idea, sonny. 



#336 Northern Sol

Northern Sol
  • Moderator
  • 16,927 posts

Posted 19 May 2013 - 10:51 PM

I've done a bit of digging and asked around, and it seems that the following were the sort of people involved in organising the Farage demonstration (I don't need to put people's names - I've checked and it's all out there on the web if you're that interested).

JM, president of the Edinburgh College Students' Association. No connection with the SNP as far as I can establish, but, obviously involved with student campaigning.

 

Quoted on the BBC "We organised yesterday’s protest against Farage out of a belief that UKIP’s policies are fundamentally rotten. Their headline five-year immigration freeze is not only completely disconnected from reality, but is a policy that neither the people of Scotland nor the rest of the United Kingdom would stomach.

 
"His regressive and repugnant ideology is not far removed from that of the BNP – just dressed in a better-fitting suit. We care deeply about the need to reduce inequality in society, not foster it. A society that accepts ideas like his being allowed to breed and multiply is not a safe society for any of us. The only result is a society of hatred."

MS, president of Edinburgh University Students' Association's Socialist Society.

Quote from Twitter: "Ukip protest yesterday branded as 'anti-English'. As a proud Englishman, arrested yesterday for protesting, I dispute these claims."
 
"His regressive and repugnant ideology is not far removed from that of the BNP - just dressed in a better-fitting suit."
 
No obvious connection with the SNP or the Yes campaign or any nationalism of any kind!

LOH, involved with Radical Independence Conference (as stated previously, they describe themselves as campaigning for Independence without Nationalism).

Quoted on the BBC: "Farage's attempts to paint our protest as anti-English is pathetic. Our vision is for a Scotland that welcomes people from across the world, including England. This is the exact opposite of Farage and Ukip's vision for Scotland, which is a parochial, bigoted British nationalism. We're against his racist ideas, not where he comes from."

MC, EUSA Vice President - Services (Sabbatical Officer). Socialist and actually a member of the Labour Party
 
Not a nationalist amongst them!

And there was little evidence of anyone from the SNP actually being there.

This wasn't a demonstration against British nationalism by people who see UKIP as a threat to the campaign for independence. It was organised as a demo against racism.

Maybe so but the Radical Independence Conference have shared a stage with the SNP at the launch of the Yes campaign. The demo had nothing to do with Scottish independence but to say that they are not Scottish nationalists is disingenuous.



#337 Methven Hornet

Methven Hornet
  • Coach
  • 9,471 posts

Posted 20 May 2013 - 04:19 AM

  ....and here's us thinking you come on here because you have no friends. :tease:

 

so if you are  "somewhat less than interested in challenging and correcting the views of those not involved." why do you always rise to the bait? In my experience, not all Scots are as touchy as you.  yes, a population of just over five million doesn't make it unusual, but it doesn't half make it easy to run using other peoples money and pretending to be more important than it really is.

 

Alex Salmond earlier today, getting ready to address  Nigel Farage.

 

one-man-band.jpg

 

We are always being told that Salmond can do everythin, but not much hope for an independent Scotland if the govt can't sort out a piddling little tram. :taunt:   

 

Sure I don't have a vote in the referendum, mores the pity, for I'd be right up there voting to get rid of a millstone from round the necks of the English, the Scottish dependency culture.    Unfortunately, Scotland is not yet independent, so I guess we have to put up with your MPs voting at our Westminster. Just a pity that more don't follow Gordon Browns example and  take the money without voting. They'd do less damage that way! 

 

Anyway, back on track, its great to see Farage getting the backs up of Salmond...long may it continue.

 

And expose right wingers?  You really have no idea, sonny. 

 

I don't know if you've noticed but I don't always 'rise to the bait', but I do find your particular brand of chauvinistic diatribe quite amusing - and you do always rise to the bait!  :tongue: 

And I thought Westminster was ours too, by the way. Dad.  ;)


"There are now more pandas in Scotland than Tory MPs."

#338 Bostik Bailey

Bostik Bailey
  • Coach
  • 1,678 posts

Posted 20 May 2013 - 05:46 AM


Never understood the objection to wind farms. If you can cope with electricity pylons you can cope with wind farms.


Electricity pylons have a continual use. Wind power doesn't keep the lights on.

#339 Futtocks

Futtocks
  • Coach
  • 19,761 posts

Posted 05 June 2013 - 10:21 AM

Another UKIP mask-slip? Or maybe 'hacked' really isn't a euphemism for 'extensively refreshed'.


A mind is like a parachute. It doesn’t work if it isn’t open. Frank Zappa (1940 - 1993)


#340 JohnM

JohnM
  • Coach
  • 19,629 posts

Posted 06 June 2013 - 08:24 AM

Electricity pylons have a continual use. Wind power doesn't keep the lights on.

It does round here.       Very disappoined in Camerson's kow-towing to the Farage forces of dark ages ignorance : Planning guidance in England will be changed to ensure local opposition can override national energy targets. see Daily Mash






0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users