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Martyn Sadler and Andy Wilson hint at behind the scenes restructure of Super League


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#181 The Parksider

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 11:24 AM

A crowd of 3700 last Sunday from a 15k population for second rate RL.

Checked all their addresses did you Terry!!

I'd love to see a survey of "where fans come from" may dispel the myth nobody from leigh supports Wigan etc.

Now here's one for you, Everton has a population of 7,398 but is capable of 40,000 crowds.

Put that in your SL application. Did you know Widnes used to average over 4,000 in the Championship and had over 8,000 at one championship match.

Now they average 6,046 in Superleague (last seasons figure) so make sure Mr.N spends that money.....

#182 The Parksider

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 11:29 AM

The crowd figures for Salford are published and available for your perusal both in the printed media and online. (Yes, their crowds are ######. Is that what you wanted to hear?)

Featherstones 3,686 for one match was surpassed by Salford when they were in the Chamioship last when they averaged throughout the season a higher figure 3,768.

Hope that cheers you up, and the figures I'm relaying warn any Championship club that just because you get in Superleague do not count on your attendances doubling.

You have to compete.....

#183 DeadShotKeen

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 11:30 AM

It’s good to hear of these talks as it at least shows that the key players in SL accept that there is a problem. I for one (as a disillusioned fan of the league) will be watching with interest.

The one thing I’d hope that can come out of the meeting(s) is something I’ve raised before - that Messrs Hudgell, Davy & O’Connor present a united front in so far as communicating the difficulties they’re having making their small market sides competitive and stable as businesses. I think it would be terrific (and very healthy) to hear what the likes of Lenagan, McManus & Hetherington would make of such input. Would they be hard-headed and unsympathetic or might a greater sense of pooled responsibility emerge? Either way I think it could be the making of the league or at the very least give us as fans a clearer idea of what SL ultimately sees itself as becoming, because just now I don’t quite know. There’s a vague sense of a more NRL-like franchising and equality amongst teams, a vague sense of a desire to expand, yet also the explicit communication that small heartland teams still have a chance of becoming involved and that we’re not going to do anything radical. It’s very “all things to all men” and the only thing I do know is that this muddled sense of identity and purpose will get us nowhere fast.

Throw us a bone, club chairmen and RFL. Let’s start having a more public discourse about the future of Super League.

#184 Rover and out

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 11:33 AM

And they already have two existing Super League clubs within 5 miles to compete with...


And yet Fev are still managing to increase fans, attract global sponsors and attract wealthy investors so obviously wakey and cas being close by isn't hampering them too much wouldn't you agree?

#185 DeadShotKeen

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 11:33 AM

The “marquee signing” thing is such a crocked idea. You only need such a thing if your salary cap by definition isn’t working in the first place. A cap works if you have x number of teams all capable of paying it and then market forces will determine that each team has their own fill of such A list players as players would slot into rough Tier 1, Tier 2, Tier 3 etc categories, each tier having its own roughly defined salary band. You couldn’t then by definition have only Tier 1 players, for example, as you wouldn’t be able to afford to pay them all. Similarly, you would be hard-pushed to pay anywhere near full cap with only Tier 3-6 (or whatever your lowest band might be) players, unless you were profoundly reckless or ill-informed. Think of your Fantasy Football league at work. That simple.

The key is to ensure the health of the league by virtue of having a large number of (by definition) competitive sides. Again, think of your Fantasy Football league, where everyone has the same pot. Marquee players then look after themselves and don’t need to leave the sport or SL as they have many more options than presently (eg about 4 SL teams, if we’re honest). What’s better still is that by not buddying up on the same teams as outlined above we also see fabulously competitive games from round 1 to the GF, which enhances our nationwide profile and position at the TV negotiating table.

Even if - following some better structural thinking - this cap was set low (thus risking losing players to RU, for example) the increased strength of the overall competition would be a good selling point to players who as a rule do not want to leave the sport. It would be a sign of RL’s confidence in itself and we would at least wring every penny out of the league’s full cap spend. Better this than any knee-jerk ad-hoc exemptions for the elite made out of fear. At the minute we lose players for the wrong reason - namely that we brought in a cap but didn’t reinforce it with full spend across the board or any serious thought as to whether that could ever sensibly and consistently take place without fear of the financial armageddon we’ve seen at some clubs. The cap and those clubs either unable to pay it through no fault other than being small and under-funded or reckless enough to do so and placing themselves in financial ruin as a result thus become the erroneous target and the answer – we are told – is to allow Leeds and Wigan to spend more to plug the gaps in our thinking and keep our best lads away from RU. It just isn’t good enough. Basically your salary cap is only as good as the league structure that supports it and ours in SL is poor, sadly. We have set up to not back ourselves, to create inequality and still to lose players anyway because the overall product is just not good (or at least competitive) enough.

Of course an alternative is to scrap the cap and let everyone pay what they want. This will keep our players but create EPL-like hierachical tedium.

Sadly this being European rugby league I fully expect some kind of “visionary” other option to placate all sides at detriment to the overall product. But this business about how to keep marquee players happy really is not rocket science. The Yanks and Aussies sussed it in a second.

Edited by DeadShotKeen, 01 May 2013 - 11:34 AM.


#186 Terry Mullaney

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 12:07 PM

Checked all their addresses did you Terry!!I'd love to see a survey of "where fans come from" may dispel the myth nobody from leigh supports Wigan etc.Now here's one for you, Everton has a population of 7,398 but is capable of 40,000 crowds.Put that in your SL application. Did you know Widnes used to average over 4,000 in the Championship and had over 8,000 at one championship match.Now they average 6,046 in Superleague (last seasons figure) so make sure Mr.N spends that money.....


I'm well aware they weren't all from Fev Parky. I was responding to someone who suggested 15k was all we had to pull from. The Everton comparison says it all, thank you for that.
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#187 JohnM

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 01:15 PM

And yet Fev are still managing to increase fans, attract global sponsors and attract wealthy investors so obviously wakey and cas being close by isn't hampering them too much wouldn't you agree?

  Quite so..and shows  how motivating the lure of at least a three year SL tenure can be.. thee years in which to capitalize on the tremendous efforts to build a sustainable future in SL in a way that could not be achieved in just one short season

 

A couple of points for clarity, if you can.

 

- who are the global sponsors? - plural

- who are the wealthy investors - plural  or do you mean benefactor,  as an investor is someone who allocates capital with the expectation of a financial return whereas a  benefactor is a person who gives some form of help to benefit an organisation

 

If Fev are awarded a licence, their income will go up significantly,  as will their costs. It will take time and money to establish a competitive team so that the initial surge of support from glory-hunting fans  translates into long term support. It ain't going to be easy and I have my doubts about it, but then, it's not me or my opinion that matters in this. 



#188 The Parksider

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 02:26 PM

If Fev are awarded a licence, their income will go up significantly,  as will their costs. It will take time and money to establish a competitive team so that the initial surge of support from glory-hunting fans  translates into long term support. It ain't going to be easy and I have my doubts about it, but then, it's not me or my opinion that matters in this.

Salford won promotion on 3768 crowds. In SL they achieved 4390 crowds first season
Widnes gained promotion on 3744 crowds. In SL they achieved 6046 crowds first season
Fartown 2570 up to 4722
Leigh 2166 to 4750
HKR 3330 to 7160
Cas 5573 to 7096

That's an average rise of 48% when these clubs have gone from top of the championship crowds into Superleague.

Note the best performers Cas and HKR have crowds over 7,000 but both make heavy losses annually.

Add 48% to Fev's average crowd and you can see that they need heavy financial input from their board and sponsors.

They say they'll get it and good luck to them.

#189 JohnM

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Posted 01 May 2013 - 02:54 PM

As a regular at Station Road last century, we'd have been happy with any of those Championship crowds when the Lions won back-to-back top division championships.  Now the top SL clubs are averaging 15,000 or more. Dying game, though.



#190 Steve Slater

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 07:30 PM

Salford won promotion on 3768 crowds. In SL they achieved 4390 crowds first season
Widnes gained promotion on 3744 crowds. In SL they achieved 6046 crowds first season
Fartown 2570 up to 4722
Leigh 2166 to 4750
HKR 3330 to 7160
Cas 5573 to 7096

That's an average rise of 48% when these clubs have gone from top of the championship crowds into Superleague.

Note the best performers Cas and HKR have crowds over 7,000 but both make heavy losses annually.

Add 48% to Fev's average crowd and you can see that they need heavy financial input from their board and sponsors.

They say they'll get it and good luck to them.

Fev wouldn't need crowds as big as other clubs, they own their own ground which brings in revenue plus they have no rent to pay. Their board has shown good financial management, especially with the acquisition of the dis-used stands from Scarborough. By the time they have finished they will have a no-frills, but fit for purpose stadium that will look relatively full on TV, at a fraction of the cost that some clubs are getting into hock over, or paying high rents with no long term security of tenure.

In the past Fev have over-achieved to match the big boys of Rugby League by shrewd financial management and a hotbed of outstanding local talent, which has been considerably weakened by their exclusion from Super League (and the game itself has suffered by fewer stars coming out of Fev). So who's to say that Fev can't do the same again? We're not talking about them matching the success of the game's big boys Like Leeds and Wigan, but they won't do any worse than those that don't make the play-offs year-in year-out.



#191 Rover and out

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 09:24 PM

Actually the board and Faisal think we can match the likes of Leeds and Wigan given time, I'm not saying we can but obviously they've got ambitions to do better than finishing bottom or there abouts each season and why not, that's what they should be aiming for.
Not having a go at you Steve btw.

#192 The Parksider

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 10:32 PM

Fev wouldn't need crowds as big as other clubs, they own their own ground which brings in revenue plus they have no rent to pay. Their board has shown good financial management, especially with the acquisition of the dis-used stands from Scarborough. By the time they have finished they will have a no-frills, but fit for purpose stadium that will look relatively full on TV, at a fraction of the cost that some clubs are getting into hock over, or paying high rents with no long term security of tenure.
In the past Fev have over-achieved to match the big boys of Rugby League by shrewd financial management and a hotbed of outstanding local talent, which has been considerably weakened by their exclusion from Super League (and the game itself has suffered by fewer stars coming out of Fev). So who's to say that Fev can't do the same again? We're not talking about them matching the success of the game's big boys Like Leeds and Wigan, but they won't do any worse than those that don't make the play-offs year-in year-out.

Steve, what's the clubs break even crowd forecast to be in Superleague then?

I'm 100% for not arguing against Fev in SL for reasons I state elsewhere.

But if you say they won't need "crowds as big as other clubs" then let me know what crowds they will need to break even. 8,000 is the lowest figure given by any SL club for break even without directors loans/gifts.

#193 The Parksider

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 10:36 PM

Actually the board and Faisal think we can match the likes of Leeds and Wigan given time.........

.........and the right circumstances.

As long as Cas are a financial basket case....

As long as I pass Newmarket where Trinity can't even manage to put a sign up......

As long as Nahaboo keeps his promise to ensure the club spend full cap year on year.....

You actually remain the favourites to become the major club in the so called Calder area.

Should Cas get a multi-millionaire benefactor and newmarket get built you may well be stuffed but neither has happened..............

#194 keighley

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 02:18 PM

As a regular at Station Road last century, we'd have been happy with any of those Championship crowds when the Lions won back-to-back top division championships.  Now the top SL clubs are averaging 15,000 or more. Dying game, though.

 

Which clubs are averaging 15,000?. I don't think any are.



#195 The Parksider

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 02:51 PM

Which clubs are averaging 15,000?. I don't think any are.

Wigan Leeds and Bradford

#196 Dave T

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 04:20 PM


Wigan Leeds and Bradford

Bradford? Is that some joke Im missing?

#197 DAZROVER1985

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 04:54 PM


Wigan Leeds and Bradford

bradford only managed 12k for their biggest home game of the season even Leeds and Wigan will be struggling to reach 15k this season, there was 12k at Wigan also last night

#198 keighley

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 04:58 PM

Wigan Leeds and Bradford

 

Bradford are certainly not averaging 15,000. They will be lucky if they are averaging 10,000. They only got 12 last night for their big derby with Leeds which used to be a 20,000 crowd fixture. I don't see Wigan averaging 15,000 either. they only got 12,000 last night also. Leeds are doing better than those two but I think a 15,000 average has not been achieved



#199 The Parksider

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 11:56 PM

Bradford are certainly not averaging 15,000. They will be lucky if they are averaging 10,000. They only got 12 last night for their big derby with Leeds which used to be a 20,000 crowd fixture. I don't see Wigan averaging 15,000 either. they only got 12,000 last night also. Leeds are doing better than those two but I think a 15,000 average has not been achieved

Read John's post about Swintons crowds when they were successful in the 60's, Read your own admission top 60's club Swinton could only manage 6,000, and read John's comments that Superleague clubs in the modern age can and have averaged 15,000.

Or 14,000 like Hull or 17,000 Like Leeds have done......
Or 16,000 like Wigan have averaged in todays era....
Or 14,000 saints got last year as an average.

Edited by The Parksider, 05 May 2013 - 08:02 AM.


#200 Ackroman

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 07:42 AM

Pedantry is a disease that we all suffer from.

Hypocrisy however......




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