Jump to content


League Express

Podcast

Photo
- - - - -

Toulouse Olympique


  • Please log in to reply
212 replies to this topic

#81 DAZROVER1985

DAZROVER1985
  • Coach
  • 322 posts

Posted 04 May 2013 - 04:39 PM

You would of thought Paris would bring masses of wealth to the game and look at how that turned out, wots to say Toulouse would be any different

#82 Wellsy4HullFC

Wellsy4HullFC
  • Coach
  • 9,744 posts

Posted 04 May 2013 - 04:51 PM

By the sport of Rugby League I mean the whole structure from grass roots level to the top of the tree, while the game is what's being played on the field. The game is brilliant while the sport is self-deluded by thinking it's bigger than it is.
Example: Before Super League, Rugby league was the biggest sport in Hull and Wigan!

So when you say "sport", you mean your own made up definition and those that don't use that definition are "idiots"? Seems rational.

You've confused the governance of the sport with the sport itself. Sport is just a kind of game involving physical exertion and skill. The RFL are not the sport. When people say "the game" and "the sport" they are referring to rugby league.

Edited by Wellsy4HullFC, 04 May 2013 - 04:53 PM.

Posted Image

#83 Wellsy4HullFC

Wellsy4HullFC
  • Coach
  • 9,744 posts

Posted 04 May 2013 - 04:54 PM


You would of thought Paris would bring masses of wealth to the game and look at how that turned out, wots to say Toulouse would be any different


Because they actually play rugby league in Toulouse, unlike in Paris. Paris is the French version of London a few decades ago.
Posted Image

#84 zorquif

zorquif
  • Coach
  • 1,421 posts

Posted 04 May 2013 - 04:57 PM

So what if they play rl in Paris? If it's about attracting big sponsors to a competition played across Europe in vibrant cities, do you think the guys signing the deals will know owt about rl?

#85 zorquif

zorquif
  • Coach
  • 1,421 posts

Posted 04 May 2013 - 05:01 PM

Which big businesses? And if they have such good connections then surely they can guarantee the sponsorships before toulouse enter SL? Indeed, why don't they sponsor toulouse rl already? My local ru team is sponsored by a multinational already through links from the team to said business

#86 zorquif

zorquif
  • Coach
  • 1,421 posts

Posted 04 May 2013 - 05:27 PM

Good. But will the sponsorship of SL by these big businesses be guaranteed before toulouse are awarded a licence? And have any of these companies shown any interest in sponsoring rl previously?

#87 Wellsy4HullFC

Wellsy4HullFC
  • Coach
  • 9,744 posts

Posted 04 May 2013 - 05:31 PM


I thought that the sponsorship thing was based on being a pan-european sport, not being in the nicest towns... in any case, London hasn't brought the big sponsors in, has it? Did paris? But toulouse will because it's nicer than perpignan? Why didn't we go to toulouse in the first place?


No, the sponsorship has to do with successful expansion in numerous big areas. Having clubs in small towns spread around isn't going to have the same effect as being in big cities spread around.
Posted Image

#88 zorquif

zorquif
  • Coach
  • 1,421 posts

Posted 04 May 2013 - 05:38 PM

So the perpignan area isn't a big area? Also, I take it that you don't consider the expansion to London successful? What qualifies as numerous? Where next, as I assume that 'sucessful' expansion to one big city would not be enough to be considered numerous

#89 Lobbygobbler

Lobbygobbler
  • Coach
  • 5,790 posts

Posted 05 May 2013 - 11:06 AM

Which big businesses? And if they have such good connections then surely they can guarantee the sponsorships before toulouse enter SL? Indeed, why don't they sponsor toulouse rl already? My local ru team is sponsored by a multinational already through links from the team to said business


The likes of EADS for a start. Sponsorship is chicken and egg unfortunately so I think TO wpuld have to guarantee their SL spot.

#90 Northern Sol

Northern Sol
  • Moderator
  • 17,148 posts

Posted 05 May 2013 - 11:29 AM

 Also, I take it that you don't consider the expansion to London successful?

Very few people do unless they are talking about junior development.



#91 Wellsy4HullFC

Wellsy4HullFC
  • Coach
  • 9,744 posts

Posted 05 May 2013 - 11:30 AM

So the perpignan area isn't a big area? Also, I take it that you don't consider the expansion to London successful? What qualifies as numerous? Where next, as I assume that 'sucessful' expansion to one big city would not be enough to be considered numerous

Perpignan itself isn't big (about the size of the Halton borough that Widnes is in), but it represents a much wider area (which is why they called themselves "Catalan" and not "Perpignan"). The reason they were picked I'd because they were the strongest RL area in France at the time and with all other factors were the most likely to succeed (which I think we can all say they've been a success).

Toulouse is a far bigger and more economically important city in France steeped in RL history. I was surprised that it didn't get picked over UTC but I don't get to see all the details. It certainly has great potential. However, to ask what sponsors will step forward, etc. is a bit like asking people to predict the future. You need the SL place before you can attract the sponsors. That's why it's "potential".

In terms of London, I think grassroots rugby there has been a huge success. I think the Broncos have been an utter failure though and are irreparable in the SL. I honestly think they need to start again Crusaders style and build up in one area from the Championships. A SL club with an 1,800 average is just inexcusable.

And yes, successful expansion to one big city would not be enough. We should ALWAYS be looking to expand to new areas. Always. We shouldn't just go "well we've got a couple if clubs in France now, we'll leave it at that" and I honestly don't understand why people think we should (these are usually the people that start their arguments with "I'm all for expansion, but..."). As if right now, I'd say Avignon are looking a good prospect. But in five years time when we're looking to expand again who knows, someone else might emerge (perhaps Crusaders will have come back from the ashes, or Sheffield may have built some momentum). Again, we're not psychics.
Posted Image

#92 Cliff Spracklen

Cliff Spracklen
  • Coach
  • 2,227 posts

Posted 05 May 2013 - 01:33 PM

As Canetman has said repeatedly recently and, as I used to say in my Treiziste Diary days, there is just no comparison between the potential of a Super League franchise in Toulouse and any other location in France. UTC were admitted as much on what I would call "old fashioned, historic and emotional criteria". This included the strength of the grass roots game and "the passion of the fans". Strong impressions were made on at least one very influential RFL personality on the basis of attendance at one UTC game where the fans were vocal, passionate, blowing their horns and banging their drums. The cacophony emanating from some of the Catalan fans was impressive. I would say those factors overwhelmed the process, even though to their credit the UTC "dirigeants" made massive strides in ensuring they met the other structural, financial and marketing criteria. Indeed one of the posters on here ensured that UTC moved into the modern marketing era creating the Dragons name and logo. I know that this was the case as I sat in on meetings as interpreter for the RFL with UTC at Red Hall and Toulouse, as well as providing the RFL with some of the context in the UTC bid. Now the Dragons have been a breath of fresh air for Super League and a success on all counts to justify their admission and continued place in Super League. But as Canetman points a Super League with the Catalan Dragons as the sole French representative will never attract the French national media, nor French national nor international companies in the way that a Toulouse SL franchise would. It is not just another French town, but a vibrant large city, that has a more prosperous economy than any other part of France. it's population remains much younger, more affluent and more upwardly mobile than the capital itself. The Table Ovale or business luncheon/dinner club has several hundred members and more combined potential sponsorship than even a Tory Party gathering. But as has been pointed out it will need the commitment by the RFL to  a successful Toulouse franchise to bring that on board. Toulouse has another advantage over Perpignan in that the though the city hosts the wealthiest , in terms of turnover, rugby union club in the world, this is a positive in terms of the demonstrating the city's potential. The difference though is that serves as an indicator of the economic base and potential of Toulouse, so is a plus point. Stade Toulousain RU club has a very warm relationship with Toulouse Olympique, whereas the Catalan Dragons faced constant hostility from USAP, who tried to put all kinds of obstacles in the way of the Dragons. In Toulouse the opposite would apply. Carlos, though now President of the French RL Federation rather than Toulouse knows everybody in this affluent city and its environs, and this is still available to TO. Unlike the last franchise bid Toulouse would have the French RL President promoting their cause with the RFL and the media. The support from the previous incumbent was lukewarm and ended with the ludicrous proposal to force Toulouse into the Championship, where they were on a hiding to nothing, but felt they had to accept what was a poisoned chalice. The Dragons remain close to my heart and they will continue to fly the Catalan flag with pride and some success. But now even the Dragons would admit that the entry of a second French SL franchise in Toulouse would be a great boost in their attempts to broaden their media and sponsorship portfolio. No other French town or city would come near that even though I fantasise about an eventual longer term SL franchise in my other favourite area, the Vaucluse department of Provence around Avignon and Carpentras. But in reality none of this has anything really to do with the current on-field performances of either team except as much as the RFL might be influenced by that.



#93 The Parksider

The Parksider
  • Coach
  • 17,006 posts

Posted 05 May 2013 - 02:00 PM

As Canetman has said repeatedly recently and, as I used to say in my Treiziste Diary days, there is just no comparison between the potential of a Super League franchise in Toulouse and any other location in France. UTC were admitted as much on what I would call "old fashioned, historic and emotional criteria". This included the strength of the grass roots game and "the passion of the fans". Strong impressions were made on at least one very influential RFL personality on the basis of attendance at one UTC game where the fans were vocal, passionate, blowing their horns and banging their drums. The cacophony emanating from some of the Catalan fans was impressive. I would say those factors overwhelmed the process, even though to their credit the UTC "dirigeants" made massive strides in ensuring they met the other structural, financial and marketing criteria. Indeed one of the posters on here ensured that UTC moved into the modern marketing era creating the Dragons name and logo. I know that this was the case as I sat in on meetings as interpreter for the RFL with UTC at Red Hall and Toulouse, as well as providing the RFL with some of the context in the UTC bid. Now the Dragons have been a breath of fresh air for Super League and a success on all counts to justify their admission and continued place in Super League. But as Canetman points a Super League with the Catalan Dragons as the sole French representative will never attract the French national media, nor French national nor international companies in the way that a Toulouse SL franchise would. It is not just another French town, but a vibrant large city, that has a more prosperous economy than any other part of France. it's population remains much younger, more affluent and more upwardly mobile than the capital itself. The Table Ovale or business luncheon/dinner club has several hundred members and more combined potential sponsorship than even a Tory Party gathering. But as has been pointed out it will need the commitment by the RFL to  a successful Toulouse franchise to bring that on board. Toulouse has another advantage over Perpignan in that the though the city hosts the wealthiest , in terms of turnover, rugby union club in the world, this is a positive in terms of the demonstrating the city's potential. The difference though is that serves as an indicator of the economic base and potential of Toulouse, so is a plus point. Stade Toulousain RU club has a very warm relationship with Toulouse Olympique, whereas the Catalan Dragons faced constant hostility from USAP, who tried to put all kinds of obstacles in the way of the Dragons. In Toulouse the opposite would apply. Carlos, though now President of the French RL Federation rather than Toulouse knows everybody in this affluent city and its environs, and this is still available to TO. Unlike the last franchise bid Toulouse would have the French RL President promoting their cause with the RFL and the media. The support from the previous incumbent was lukewarm and ended with the ludicrous proposal to force Toulouse into the Championship, where they were on a hiding to nothing, but felt they had to accept what was a poisoned chalice. The Dragons remain close to my heart and they will continue to fly the Catalan flag with pride and some success. But now even the Dragons would admit that the entry of a second French SL franchise in Toulouse would be a great boost in their attempts to broaden their media and sponsorship portfolio. No other French town or city would come near that even though I fantasise about an eventual longer term SL franchise in my other favourite area, the Vaucluse department of Provence around Avignon and Carpentras. But in reality none of this has anything really to do with the current on-field performances of either team except as much as the RFL might be influenced by that.

A cliff post. I've put the flags out at New Parkside.

#94 zorquif

zorquif
  • Coach
  • 1,421 posts

Posted 06 May 2013 - 06:56 AM

As Canetman has said repeatedly recently and, as I used to say in my Treiziste Diary days, there is just no comparison between the potential of a Super League franchise in Toulouse and any other location in France. UTC were admitted as much on what I would call "old fashioned, historic and emotional criteria". This included the strength of the grass roots game and "the passion of the fans". Strong impressions were made on at least one very influential RFL personality on the basis of attendance at one UTC game where the fans were vocal, passionate, blowing their horns and banging their drums. The cacophony emanating from some of the Catalan fans was impressive. I would say those factors overwhelmed the process, even though to their credit the UTC "dirigeants" made massive strides in ensuring they met the other structural, financial and marketing criteria. Indeed one of the posters on here ensured that UTC moved into the modern marketing era creating the Dragons name and logo. I know that this was the case as I sat in on meetings as interpreter for the RFL with UTC at Red Hall and Toulouse, as well as providing the RFL with some of the context in the UTC bid. Now the Dragons have been a breath of fresh air for Super League and a success on all counts to justify their admission and continued place in Super League. But as Canetman points a Super League with the Catalan Dragons as the sole French representative will never attract the French national media, nor French national nor international companies in the way that a Toulouse SL franchise would. It is not just another French town, but a vibrant large city, that has a more prosperous economy than any other part of France. it's population remains much younger, more affluent and more upwardly mobile than the capital itself. The Table Ovale or business luncheon/dinner club has several hundred members and more combined potential sponsorship than even a Tory Party gathering. But as has been pointed out it will need the commitment by the RFL to a successful Toulouse franchise to bring that on board. Toulouse has another advantage over Perpignan in that the though the city hosts the wealthiest , in terms of turnover, rugby union club in the world, this is a positive in terms of the demonstrating the city's potential. The difference though is that serves as an indicator of the economic base and potential of Toulouse, so is a plus point. Stade Toulousain RU club has a very warm relationship with Toulouse Olympique, whereas the Catalan Dragons faced constant hostility from USAP, who tried to put all kinds of obstacles in the way of the Dragons. In Toulouse the opposite would apply. Carlos, though now President of the French RL Federation rather than Toulouse knows everybody in this affluent city and its environs, and this is still available to TO. Unlike the last franchise bid Toulouse would have the French RL President promoting their cause with the RFL and the media. The support from the previous incumbent was lukewarm and ended with the ludicrous proposal to force Toulouse into the Championship, where they were on a hiding to nothing, but felt they had to accept what was a poisoned chalice. The Dragons remain close to my heart and they will continue to fly the Catalan flag with pride and some success. But now even the Dragons would admit that the entry of a second French SL franchise in Toulouse would be a great boost in their attempts to broaden their media and sponsorship portfolio. No other French town or city would come near that even though I fantasise about an eventual longer term SL franchise in my other favourite area, the Vaucluse department of Provence around Avignon and Carpentras. But in reality none of this has anything really to do with the current on-field performances of either team except as much as the RFL might be influenced by that.


Wow, that is a fair block of text, but ta - interesting stuff. Especially about how the Cats got in above Toulouse.

Regarding the sponsorship and TV deals, I have a few questions. The repeated mantra is that SL have to guarantee a SL spot for Toulouse to get these on board. I think that I have phrased this badly previously, but if the French (and in particular Toulousain) businesses and TV are so interested in having a Toulouse team in SL, then I am sure a quid pro quo arrangement could be sorted, i.e. an agreement between SL and all these businesses that will be clammering to sponsor Toulouse SL saying 'if you lot sponsor us, we'll put Toulouse in SL'. After all, there is no point in these guys just sponsoring Toulouse - what benefit would that bring to the rest of SL?

The TV deal interests me - surely the sum of the French and British TV deals would have to be greater than the British only deal that would be offered in the absence of a second french team? However, i am aware that this is the subject of great conjecture, but the SL could surely tender two products to SKY and see how it works out?

Another thing I was wondering, is that the potential of Toulouse to attract international sponsors has been mentioned. Again, I assume that this means to SL as a whole. In any case, how long do we give Toulouse to acheive this? And what quality of sponsor?

I bow to your greater knowledge on this, but I would be wary of Stade Toulousain RU. They may appear friendly now, but the RL team is very much the poor relation in all this. When the RL team starts getting bigger and stronger, Stade Toulousain RU might not be so welcoming of the competition...

Edited by zorquif, 06 May 2013 - 06:57 AM.


#95 statties

statties
  • Coach
  • 278 posts

Posted 07 May 2013 - 04:45 PM


on merit you can look no further than featherstone rovers for a super league license next time, if they miss out to toulouse then it will be a travesty of judgement.

 

 

On sentimental merit perhaps.

 

On financial, profile, sustainability and growth merit, then you can look no further than Toulouse for a super league license next time, if they miss out to featherstone rovers then it will be a travesty of judgement.


Edited by statties, 07 May 2013 - 04:55 PM.


#96 thundergaz

thundergaz
  • Coach
  • 2,665 posts

Posted 07 May 2013 - 05:03 PM

On sentimental merit perhaps.

On financial, profile, sustainability and growth merit, then you can look no further than Toulouse for a super league license next time, if they miss out to featherstone rovers then it will be a travesty of judgement.

You having a laugh? They couldn't compete in the champ never mind SL. Another crusaders springs to mind or Paris need I go on? I'm not saying Fev should get into SL but a champ club should before a two bit French outfit.

Edited by thundergaz, 07 May 2013 - 05:09 PM.


#97 statties

statties
  • Coach
  • 278 posts

Posted 07 May 2013 - 05:14 PM

You having a laugh? They couldn't compete in the champ never mind SL. Another crusaders springs to mind or Paris need I go on?

you having a laugh? Fev couldn't compete in the SL but suitable for Champ. Another Leigh springs to mind or Workington need I go on?



#98 Scubby

Scubby
  • Coach
  • 3,734 posts

Posted 07 May 2013 - 05:19 PM

Exactly how many Featherstone players would stay at the club if they had to play in the Elite competition in France? That would be travelling all around the South of France on a bi-weekly basis while still holding down a job at home and earning part-time wages

 

You can bet anything that the key players would drift off to Halifax, Sheffield, Leigh, Batley for the same money and an easy life? No need to spend two or three days every fortnight and planes, trains and coaches etc. Featherstone would then be left with a willing band of also-rans trying to compete in the Championship - and probably struggling to survive at best.

 

That is a reflection of what Toulouse playing in the Championship was like. Whoever thought it would work on a part-time basis must have been off his/her rocker.

 

Playing and training full-time and recruiting other French internationals who are not regulars at Catalans etc. cannot compare to what went on in the Championship.

 

You having a laugh? They couldn't compete in the champ never mind SL. Another crusaders springs to mind or Paris need I go on?

 



#99 DAZROVER1985

DAZROVER1985
  • Coach
  • 322 posts

Posted 07 May 2013 - 05:19 PM


you having a laugh? Fev couldn't compete in the SL but suitable for Champ. Another Leigh springs to mind or Workington need I go on?

fev have never been given the chance to compete in super league, the season before super league the were in the challenge cup semis and weren't they premiership winners at old Trafford a cuple of seasons before also beating the all conquering Wigan team. Fev have built up on and off the pitch to be ready for super league so if anybody shuld have the right for super league it is featherstone rovers!!

#100 goldcoaster

goldcoaster
  • Coach
  • 2,750 posts

Posted 07 May 2013 - 05:20 PM

I can understand Fev fans wanting what's best for their club. But putting Fev in SL over Toulouse would be akin to putting the Newtown Jets in the NRL over Perth

Edited by goldcoaster, 07 May 2013 - 05:21 PM.

Posted Image

Posted Image




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users