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#161 The Parksider

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 12:28 PM

Who'd have thought that London with it's population of around eight million people had more professional players than Featherstone (circa 15000).

That's simplistic stuff. Castleford and Featherstone/Pontefract were producing fabulous players 100 and more years ago. Some of hunslets all four cups pack were from Fev and Pontefract.

The professional clubs in these towns came into the game in the 1920's and from cas and pontefract and fev you could put together today a fantastic home born 25 equal to what Wigan and leeds could put on the pitch.

One would hope that in 100 years time Hemel, Skolars, Broncos, Oxford and name any name you want would equally be able to field a quality squad of pro RL players born down there.

Edited by The Parksider, 08 May 2013 - 12:29 PM.


#162 The Parksider

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 12:32 PM

The point was the number of players in SL now that have come through the academy and scholarship structures of Broncos compared to those of Fev.

But the point is the game needs players to be developed in BOTH Feathersone AND in London.

Wether in Featherstones demise their best locals will just sign at Wakefield, and wether on London Broncos demise the best RL players will give up and go to Union for want of a local professional club to follow a career at is the central point.

It's just up the road from Fev to Wakey. It's 200 miles from London to Leeds academy.

Edited by The Parksider, 08 May 2013 - 12:34 PM.


#163 Northern Sol

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 01:02 PM

But the point is the game needs players to be developed in BOTH Feathersone AND in London.

Wether in Featherstones demise their best locals will just sign at Wakefield, and wether on London Broncos demise the best RL players will give up and go to Union for want of a local professional club to follow a career at is the central point.

It's just up the road from Fev to Wakey. It's 200 miles from London to Leeds academy.

No, the central point is whether Broncos can continue as a professional side.

 

If they can't then debating about what happens to all their academy players is merely rearranging the chairs on the deck of the Titanic.



#164 keighley

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 01:07 PM

why shouldn't new professional clubs be given more of an advantage to enter SL than heritage clubs. Those heritage Champ clubs like Fev have had over or near to 100 years to become the household names and global superpowers that they are today.

 

Lets help a club like Toulouse to become as powerful and renowned as Fev in a little less than the 100 years it has taken them. Who knows, they may even become bigger.

 

 

Featherstone entered the professional ranks in the 1920s so I don't know where you get the 100 years from.



#165 keighley

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 01:13 PM

Because there is more criteria for a club to belong in SL than simply winning the lower division. As unjust as you feel for Fev losing its place in the top flight, the club did not suitably fulfill criteria then and neither do they now.

 

I can understand arguments against London's inclusion however they have never been properly given the support they need to succeed. I read or heard on the radio somewhere recently there are currently more SL players from London than from Fev. The player pool is just one of so many advantages of having them in SL at the expense of Fev or almost any other club for that matter.

 

Without London in SL the players being produced by London amateur clubs would get signed by other SL clubs directly or go to Hemel, Skolars or a non SL broncos and move on to SL clubs from there. I am sure there are not as many SL players from Fev because Fev actually sign them for themselves rather than them all going to SL clubs. If London need support to suceed then fine but why should they get it in preference to any other club.?



#166 keighley

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 01:20 PM

I understand your first point already. Unfortunately the SL is in a position where decisions of which clubs participate in it must be based with the overall welfare of the sport at hand and not the allegiance towards heritage clubs who have much less potential to become a Super club. 

 

NZ doesn't have an elite competition to rival the NRL or SL yet they are world champs. Rugby Union club competitions in both the northern and southern hemispheres have clubs from various nations. Furthermore so does, football, baseball, basketball and ice hockey. Why wouldn't an elite pan European RL competition be in the best interest as well?

 

 

If the club wants a SL spot, it would be better off over the next 6 years spending the money on creating one of England's elite academy and scholarship programmes

 

 

Baseball has one club from outside the USA but in the three world cups they have held, with the USA competing, Japan has won twice and the Dominican Republic the third, so I would be wary about citing baseball to support your argument because it dosn't.



#167 The Parksider

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 01:23 PM

Without London in SL the players being produced by London amateur clubs would get signed by other SL clubs directly

Think it through.

Some would go north some do, some would not want to go 200 miles to play academy and risk being chucked out as most academy lads are, some would not bother with RL at all.

Some would be ultra keen some would be not keen at all.

Like you I haven't a clue exactly in what numbers they would fall into these and other categories.

But to assume they would all robotically just think one way and go one way regardless is a nonsense.

#168 Ponterover

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 01:25 PM

i know right, and some people want to add a club with a population of 15000 to the SL. It is absolutely baffling

I'm boring myself with this one now

Featherstone is where the ground is and where the team takes it's name from.

15000 is nowhere near the potential population to draw from. It's easily as big, if not bigger than that of Cas (without canibalisation) and not far off Wakey's

#169 keighley

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 01:26 PM

Nope it's not going to work like that.

Toulouse will be considered against the French TV deal and civic and aerospace money they can bring to the comp and their importance to French International RL.

Featherstone will not be considered against the Pontefract network TV deal and the Featherstone town hall and Linpac money they can bring to the comp and their importance to English International RL.

Instead they will wave mr. Nahaboos money at the licensing commitee and provide newspaper clippings of reports showing Hudgell, O'Connor and Fulton don't want to know any more

 

 

Toulouse had better hope they will attract all that support because there is a huge RU club and a 1st division soccer club vying for the same money. Also, how big is the junior game in Toulouse.? I do not know but I get the impression not that many French players actually hail from there.



#170 Rascal Bongo Stork

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 01:37 PM

I would think that it would do great damage to player production in the South East if the Broncos vanished. It's dreamland to think that the south would produce as many youngsters without them. Numbers of talented players coming through would drop sharply. I really believe that we're just at the beginning of something special down here - funding cuts still to fully hit notwithstanding. If the Broncos do fail then the RFL or it's clubs would do themselves a great favour by setting up a London Academy.



#171 keighley

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 02:04 PM

Think it through.

Some would go north some do, some would not want to go 200 miles to play academy and risk being chucked out as most academy lads are, some would not bother with RL at all.

Some would be ultra keen some would be not keen at all.

Like you I haven't a clue exactly in what numbers they would fall into these and other categories.

But to assume they would all robotically just think one way and go one way regardless is a nonsense.

 

As usual you picked the bit of a post to support your argument and ignored the rest. There would be three semi pro clubs in the London area with another 30 miles away at Oxford who would be an alternative option for players coming out of London amateur RL as well as the SL clubs from the North.

 

So some would sign directly for the London clubs and move to SL outfits if they were found to be good enough and some would sign directly for SL clubs and revert to the London semi pro game if they were cut loose from SL. This is just like the scenario in Cumbria and other areas, Oldham maybe.

 

The fate of the London amateur scene does not hinge on the fate of the Broncos.thank goodness.



#172 Larry the Leit

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 02:20 PM

I remain unconvinced that the burgeoning of the amateur game in London over recent years has anything other than a tenuous link with London Broncos being in Superleague.  It's not like the kids are watching the Broncos in any numbers is it?


The Unicorn is not a Goose,

#173 keighley

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 02:20 PM

I'm boring myself with this one now

Featherstone is where the ground is and where the team takes it's name from.

15000 is nowhere near the potential population to draw from. It's easily as big, if not bigger than that of Cas (without canibalisation) and not far off Wakey's

 

 These "Big City Teams are the future of RL" dreamers make me smile.

 

The "Big" cities in RL,Bradford, Leeds, Hull, London, Salford ( Manchester) and Sheffield are a mixed bag but none gets more than 15,000. Wigan, Saints and Warrington are small cities with decent sized RL teams and they don't average above 15,000 either.

 

These clubs are our Manchester uniteds and Manchester Cities, Arsenals etc. but those teams all average over 40,000. the premier league is then filled with a bunch of teams averaging arounf the 20 to 25,000 mark, Stoke, West Brom, Swansea, Wigan, QPR etc. to make up the numbers.

 

So in RL if our top teams are in the 10 to 15,000 range then our lower level equivalents, our West Broms, should be in the 4 to 7,000 area and this leaves room for the Halifax's, Fev's and others if they get their acts together.

 

Big City teams in RL, name one. Rugby league does not and has never ever operated in the stratosphere. Our 'Big" clubs are small and we have and can function with teams in the Fev, Cas, Halifax and Salford as our middle level teams making up the SL numbers as premier league soccer does, albeit at a much higher attendance level throughout.



#174 zorquif

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 03:24 PM

Nope it's not going to work like that.

Toulouse will be considered against the French TV deal and civic and aerospace money they can bring to the comp and their importance to French International RL.

Featherstone will not be considered against the Pontefract network TV deal and the Featherstone town hall and Linpac money they can bring to the comp and their importance to English International RL.

Instead they will wave mr. Nahaboos money at the licensing commitee and provide newspaper clippings of reports showing Hudgell, O'Connor and Fulton don't want to know any more


But toulouse should not be considered against civic and defence sponsorship or a french tv unless they are guaranteed (on the condition that toulouse get in to SL). Otherwise it's just a pipe dream. What if fev said that espn would give a multimillion US tv deal if they were in SL and that Coca Cola would sponsor the league? Let's get them in!

#175 Northern Sol

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 03:28 PM

I remain unconvinced that the burgeoning of the amateur game in London over recent years has anything other than a tenuous link with London Broncos being in Superleague.  It's not like the kids are watching the Broncos in any numbers is it?

You are right and that's why you will find a huge growth in the amateur game in the Midlands and the North East as well.



#176 Rascal Bongo Stork

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 04:35 PM

If someone has the time and energy to draw up a list of South Eastern SL players and then spends the time to have a ponder whether each one would have made it if it hadnt been for the Broncos, who discovered them,where they played their junior RL, who coached them etc etc then methinks mlud that my case will rest



#177 Northern Sol

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 04:46 PM

If someone has the time and energy to draw up a list of South Eastern SL players and then spends the time to have a ponder whether each one would have made it if it hadnt been for the Broncos, who discovered them,where they played their junior RL, who coached them etc etc then methinks mlud that my case will rest

I think you would need to show that growth in the South East was quicker than it was in the Midlands or the North East.



#178 The Parksider

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 05:07 PM

As usual you picked the bit of a post to support your argument and ignored the rest. There would be three semi pro clubs in the London area with another 30 miles away at Oxford who would be an alternative option for players coming out of London amateur RL as well as the SL clubs from the North.

What are you talking about??

London Broncos run a fully staffed professional academy to develop players into full time professionals.

Oxford, Hemel and Skolars do not run such academies.

It's like saying a leeds lad doesn't have to go to Leeds to become a profesional player because he can join Hunslet.

I'm always after what is the truth about these issues. It's not me with a hatred of the London Broncos. I don't have "arguments" to suit what I would like to see happen, all I'm after is what's best for the game, and we will only get there if we can agree on how things really are.

You also say "some would sign for SL clubs" but you fail to aknowledge that some may simply drop Rugby league if they have to travel 200 miles as a 16 year old to another part of the country to pursue a dream of being an RL professional.

Larry Leit suggests kids don't play RL in London because they want to be a London Broncos player. He reckons kid not many kids watch the Broncos. But all top quality kids when they start getting to 14 & 15 do have it cross their minds (if they don't it will be suggested to them) that perhaps they could turn professional.

A player could be ripping it up fot Greenwich Admirals at 15 and his coach suggest he tries Brooncos academy.

If there is no academy for 200 miles then of course it's logical and rational than that will put a number of them off.

But apparently according to you they all will be happy to take the path of trying to be a professional player by joining a semi pro club that doesn't have the facilities for such development!! How does that work??

Or they will go live up north when they're just a kid to pursue their career in a profession where many youngsters don't make it, leaving family and friends behind.

Ridiculous

Let's just pack in any exchanges if you think I don't debate issues honestly and have some sort of an agenda.

Edited by The Parksider, 08 May 2013 - 05:17 PM.


#179 DAZROVER1985

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 05:15 PM

Fev bring far less than any exisitng SL club.

They bring a dilution of professional clubs on an already relatively small player pool.

They bring a smaller potential of new spectators and viewers due to its size and nearby competitors.

They bring a PT development team made up of existing players to supplement their contracts and not neccesarily development professionals.

yet if they were in super league next weekend they would pull a bigger attendance than Salford and London. What is a PT development team if you mean academy they are investing heavily into there's which super league teams are trying to avoid. Yet none of these points equates to commercial suicide which you say would happen if fev are in super league so please come back with remotely valid points of what all the current teams add that fev can't commercially, ie increased sponsorship etc

#180 DAZROVER1985

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 05:20 PM

No, London have an influence on coaching at junior clubs throughout the London Junior League, so those clubs and the players from them will have an affinity and should they be good enough play in scholarships and academies at Broncos. Fev do not have that luxury.

The point was the number of players in SL now that have come through the academy and scholarship structures of Broncos compared to those of Fev.

why are the broncos so poor then if they have an infinite amount of talent.




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