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RUGBY LEAGUE WORLD MAGAZINE - ISSUE 401 - OUT NOW!
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#121 davewd

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 10:23 AM

Question--- A team who plays with DR players wins the league automatic promotion. The four teams underneath go to playoff
and 2 go to the final can they play with DR players in the final. If the answer is yes ,open to --- well read into it what you think. If no then not very honest is it.

#122 Dave T

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 02:58 PM

Super League clubs benefit most because they don't have to run reserve teams and they can pay their Aussie stars a lot more! Championship clubs benefit in the short term by having more experienced or potentially more skillfull players in their side for a particular game, but those players are not available all the time and for every one of them that wears a shirt their is a lad who genuinely wants to play for that club stood around watching. Its morally wrong and doesn't give a fair reflection of championship club standards. I am seriously considering only watching amateur RL from next season and I love following North Wales crusaders.

Hmm. Sounds a touch romantic to me to suggest that a player 'genuinely wants to play for those championship clubs'. Players will play wherever they can get a wage.



#123 juliancaine

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Posted 07 May 2013 - 10:38 PM

Hopefully DR rules will be changed for next season but somehow I doubt it as in my opinion it only benefits the super league clubs.



#124 Dave T

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 08:00 AM


Hopefully DR rules will be changed for next season but somehow I doubt it as in my opinion it only benefits the super league clubs.

so you are saying Swinton havent benefited at all from this? Not one bit?

#125 Derwent

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 08:18 AM

 

so you are saying Swinton havent benefited at all from this? Not one bit?

In the short term they may have benefited on the field (though not by a lot), but who knows what damage it might do them in the longer term ? The potential long term consequences and impact haven't yet been seen, maybe they won't materialise, its too early to say.

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#126 Dave T

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 10:13 AM

 In the short term they may have benefited on the field (though not by a lot), but who knows what damage it might do them in the longer term ? The potential long term consequences and impact haven't yet been seen, maybe they won't materialise, its too early to say.

I don't disagree that there are real potential issues on this, but there are absolutely positives. Lee Briers turning out for Swinton is a positive for the club without doubt (putting aside whether it should be allowed to happen). The PR around that - most of the RL world was talking about this (and still are!) - and along with the cheap tickets the crowd was a good one.

 

It's probably fair to say that it hasn't been an unqualified success for Swinton, but without looking at their books I don't think we could honestly make that call anyway. For all we know, they may have saved a fair bit on training facilities, coaching and players. I suspect there are financial benefits.



#127 Derwent

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 10:25 AM

 

I don't disagree that there are real potential issues on this, but there are absolutely positives. Lee Briers turning out for Swinton is a positive for the club without doubt (putting aside whether it should be allowed to happen). The PR around that - most of the RL world was talking about this (and still are!) - and along with the cheap tickets the crowd was a good one.
 
It's probably fair to say that it hasn't been an unqualified success for Swinton, but without looking at their books I don't think we could honestly make that call anyway. For all we know, they may have saved a fair bit on training facilities, coaching and players. I suspect there are financial benefits.

I'm sure you're right but where does their heavy reliance on Warrington leave them if the system is scrapped at some point - this is RL so it'll not be long before its all changed again. If they neglect their own infrastructure to simply use Warrington's then what happens if (when) the system is changed and they're left without anything of their own in place ? DR can be a good thing if used correctly, i.e. as an enhancement to what you already have, but in Swinton's case its been used as a replacement which ultimately can't be a good thing IMHO. If Warrington were to suddenly cease the partnership for whatever reason and take back their players (including the 6 that supposedly signed for Swinton) they would struggle to even field a team, that's a precarious position to be in. I also think it may affect their future recruitment - which half-decent Championship player is going to want to go there in the knowledge that any given week he could be shunted aside to make way for a Warrington player to get fit, regardless of how well he's playing ?

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#128 Dave T

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 10:37 AM

1 -  I'm sure you're right but where does their heavy reliance on Warrington leave them if the system is scrapped at some point - this is RL so it'll not be long before its all changed again. If they neglect their own infrastructure to simply use Warrington's then what happens if (when) the system is changed and they're left without anything of their own in place ?

 

2 - DR can be a good thing if used correctly, i.e. as an enhancement to what you already have, but in Swinton's case its been used as a replacement which ultimately can't be a good thing IMHO.

 

3 - If Warrington were to suddenly cease the partnership for whatever reason and take back their players (including the 6 that supposedly signed for Swinton) they would struggle to even field a team, that's a precarious position to be in.

 

4 - I also think it may affect their future recruitment - which half-decent Championship player is going to want to go there in the knowledge that any given week he could be shunted aside to make way for a Warrington player to get fit, regardless of how well he's playing ?

I don't disagree with the overall principle, and overall success of this could probably only be measured after a 3-5 year period.

 

On your individual points:

 

1 - I think a lot of it depends on the agreements that are signed, but tbh, if the worst did happen, I suspect they would need to simply recruit more players for that year and sort some training facilities. This could cause them a headache, but shouldn't be critical to them.

 

2 - I think we will undoubtedly see more rotation of players if this scheme stays. How much of an issue that is for players and fans is one for them to answer, but in effect players will be playing on shorter term deals. Definitely a shift, but how much of an issue that is remains to be seen.

 

3 - As per point 1, the agreements need to be pretty tight, we don;t know whether pulling out would be possible. I assume that Warrington wouldn't be able to pull back their '6' as they are technically contracted to Swinton - at least not until the end of the season. I think the worst case would be Swinton being without the 5 official DR players - which isn't a problem that couldn;t be fixed if required.

 

4 - Probably a fair point, but ultimately that could happen at many clubs. I suppose it is up to clubs' management to manage this effectively, there are benefits to some players playing alongside some of the players being used.

 

Personally I'm not a fan of how it is currently structured. I don;t share the same concerns as many other people, but there are certain things that don;t feel right to me.



#129 shaun mc

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 12:31 PM

Dual Reg is going to be reviewed at the end of the season.

Either 1. It'll be announced as an unqualified success and the same again for next season, with a few more lines about clarification of arrangements. Or 2. DR is scrapped or 3. reverts back to last seasons arrangements.

I think it will be 1. - therefore Swinton are ok.
If its 2. they are in a bit of trouble as will have to recruit a number of players, and will still have to do so of its 3. (assuming there is a max number of DR's).

Depends what happens to SL and Sky money next season. If SL goes back down to 12 (or even 10) teams then they may decide to bring back a reserve team comp.
IMO - I wouldn't like to be in Swintons shoes with the current uncertainty.

#130 Dave T

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 12:35 PM

Dual Reg is going to be reviewed at the end of the season.

Either 1. It'll be announced as an unqualified success and the same again for next season, with a few more lines about clarification of arrangements. Or 2. DR is scrapped or 3. reverts back to last seasons arrangements.

I think it will be 1. - therefore Swinton are ok.
If its 2. they are in a bit of trouble as will have to recruit a number of players, and will still have to do so of its 3. (assuming there is a max number of DR's).

Depends what happens to SL and Sky money next season. If SL goes back down to 12 (or even 10) teams then they may decide to bring back a reserve team comp.
IMO - I wouldn't like to be in Swintons shoes with the current uncertainty.

I think the probability is that it will revert to a similar situation as last year. 

 

So based on that Swinton will be fine. They will still have 5 players per week from Warrington.

 

The issue around the 6 'Wire/Swinton' players is a loophole that needs closing. If these players left for Warrington, then basically Swinton would need to sign 6 players. Not really unheard of, or a massive issue.



#131 LOYALION

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 01:33 PM

I dont think we would be in a vastly dissimilar position than we were at the start of this year. At this level players move on for better deals every year. Not much in the way of club loyalty. Players retire, lose Interest, even emigrate (3 to Aus from our team of last season) so we had to build a squad again.
As for the training issues, we've managed without our own turf for 20yrs, we're used to it!

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#132 The Parksider

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 05:34 PM

I'm sure you're right but where does their heavy reliance on Warrington leave them if the system is scrapped at some point - this is RL so it'll not be long before its all changed again. If they neglect their own infrastructure to simply use Warrington's then what happens if (when) the system is changed and they're left without anything of their own in place.

Hunslet didn't have anything in place as regards infrastructure. That's that?

We look round for likely players from wherever we can get them and sign them on for whatever we can afford.

And another season goes past in CC1.

Drop lucky and get promoted to CC and look forward to losing all the games bar the odd one.

Until the chance to feed off the Leeds players comes along. Result - we can compete better.

So what may happen if we are heavily restricted is what Blackpool hawk suggested. We shut down.

#133 jpmc

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 09:22 PM

I don't think DR is the issue,as much as i dislike it,it haddn't done to much damage to the championship until this season.The difference/problem now is clubs have linked and its obvious some clubs are being told which players they can use,that wasn't the case last season.Go back to last season and the seasons before and theres not really a problem.

#134 jpmc

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 09:26 PM

I don't disagree that there are real potential issues on this, but there are absolutely positives. Lee Briers turning out for Swinton is a positive for the club without doubt (putting aside whether it should be allowed to happen). The PR around that - most of the RL world was talking about this (and still are!) - and along with the cheap tickets the crowd was a good one.
 
It's probably fair to say that it hasn't been an unqualified success for Swinton, but without looking at their books I don't think we could honestly make that call anyway. For all we know, they may have saved a fair bit on training facilities, coaching and players. I suspect there are financial benefits.

Cheap tickets are the way to go for reserve/A team RL

#135 Dave T

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 09:54 PM

I don't think DR is the issue,as much as i dislike it,it haddn't done to much damage to the championship until this season.The difference/problem now is clubs have linked and its obvious some clubs are being told which players they can use,that wasn't the case last season.Go back to last season and the seasons before and theres not really a problem.

Why is it obvious that clubs are being told this year but weren't last year?



#136 jpmc

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 10:15 PM

Why is it obvious that clubs are being told this year but weren't last year?

This season if leigh went to wigan and asked for a centre because rowley wanted to rest one of his own, but wigan couldn't oblige with the right quality, then rowley is knackered.Last season he could have gone to wire or saints and asked them for the right quality of young player and all partys would have been happy.
James laithewaite is the perfect example.

#137 The Parksider

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 04:35 AM

The difference/problem now is clubs have linked and its obvious some clubs are being told which players they can use,that wasn't the case last season.Go back to last season and the seasons before and theres not really a problem.

The SL clubs of course dictate to the partnered club that's the deal. You assume CC clubs can dictate to the SL club when it's the CC club that needs the deal. Barry Eaton will accommodate Leeds needs, as they come first. Hunslet come last, or they will do without the deal.

#138 Derwent

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 07:50 AM

Why is it obvious that clubs are being told this year but weren't last year?


The difference is that last year a club could DR 4 players but weren't restricted to getting them from 1 club. At Town for example we had Chris Annakin from Wakefield, Dave Petersen from HKR, Adam Walne & Andy Morris from Salford. The other difference was you DR'd these players for the whole season and they regularly trained with the club. You knew that, unless they were in the named squad for SL that week, they were available to you. They had regular contact with your squad and coaches and weren't brought in for one-off appearances.

Under the current system the 5 players available to you this week might not be the same 5 as last week, so there's no continuity for either the club or the players.

Workington Town. Then. Now. Always.


#139 Dave T

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 08:27 AM

The difference is that last year a club could DR 4 players but weren't restricted to getting them from 1 club. At Town for example we had Chris Annakin from Wakefield, Dave Petersen from HKR, Adam Walne & Andy Morris from Salford. The other difference was you DR'd these players for the whole season and they regularly trained with the club. You knew that, unless they were in the named squad for SL that week, they were available to you. They had regular contact with your squad and coaches and weren't brought in for one-off appearances.

Under the current system the 5 players available to you this week might not be the same 5 as last week, so there's no continuity for either the club or the players.

I think the point I was challenging was that clubs were being told who they could play this year - that was exactly the same last year.  I agree with your point that you had more continuity and certainty, but ultimately, the parent club of the players would still be dictating who could play and when.

There seems to be a re-writing of history that suggests that last year was great, yet I remember all sorts of outrage, with people complaining over this exact same thing. A couple of years back they were complaining that if Tony Smith wanted Blythe to play for Leigh over a young Leigh player then he would be in.

 

The same issues were there, but in a slightly different format.

 

I agree with your point that the club link-ups are actually causing an issue, I'm not a massive fan of that, but I'm not that sure of the best solution either that works for SL and Championship clubs.

 

People now talk all misty eyed about the original version of DR, when in fact many of the challenges we now face were causing outrage over the past couple of years.

 

Of course this has been escalated due to the experienced SL players issue and the Swinton/Warrington 6.



#140 Blind side johnny

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 07:34 PM

I don't think DR is the issue,as much as i dislike it,it haddn't done to much damage to the championship until this season.The difference/problem now is clubs have linked and its obvious some clubs are being told which players they can use,that wasn't the case last season.Go back to last season and the seasons before and theres not really a problem.

 

 

I disagree. There is a lot of disillusionment amongst traditional fans regarding DR, and traditional fans are all that the Championship has at the moment. Such disillusionment gives people an ideal excuse/opportunity to stop coming, and then they never return. Although it may seem like a case of hanging on to what we have or hoping for new fans to roll up with the promise of "star" players on show, it certainly leaves most clubs between a rock and a hard place.

 

DR is not by any means the cause of the problems of clubs in the lower tiers, but it also hasn't helped in the short term, and without a short term there may not be a long term for many, sad to say.

 

I anticipate disturbing news from a host of "heartland" clubs during the course of this season.

 

 .


Believe what you see, don't see what you believe.


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