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Reds to bid for Dobson and Paterson?


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#61 westhuller

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 07:45 AM

I'm not wrong that Hull have had an academy for many years and HKR started an academy up when they came in.

I'm not wrong that HKR have passed Hull in terms of having Hull born lads in their first 25 so the criticisms of Rovers are unfounded.

I'm not wrong that there aren't enough quality lads to stock one Hull team let alone two so that's a problem for both clubs in the city.

As for the quality of the academy set ups that's another question, maybe many of them are useless.

Maybe not enough quality sportsmen take up RL in this country.

But either way two clubs sharing scant resources doesn't help either be "super"

In your own word you said Hull FC should be " castigated " over there junior set up. The current regime had nothing to with the badly managed youth set up of the previous regime so why should they be castigated ? I go and watch a lot of the junior games due to a family member playing for the 19's so I have first hand experience on how FC's junior set up is now run and it is a million miles from were it was. They should be applauded for the way they have invested. You are making comments on your own opinion mine are based on fact.

#62 Roy Boy

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 10:29 AM

oh my word - what tosh!!!

Ex Hull FC players now in the KR First Team Squad:-

1. Craig Hall
2. Josh Hodgson
3. Graeme Horne

Take those out of the marvelous "home grown" list and I think you'll find as is the norm, there are more Aussies than any other nationality in Rovers squad!!!
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#63 Brigg Rover

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 11:32 AM

The facts as they stand:

As a Hull KR fan I would like to follow and have faith in Hull KR.

As someone who has many demands on my time and money I am fussy and selective and not interested in following a "sell to survive" team, whether this is Hull KR or anyone else.

If someone decrees a merged Hull side is the best solution I would tend to agree and follow said side in the name of progress.

Dobson and Paterson are far and away our 2 best players. With them we're a borderline play-off team, without them we're barely even SL standard.

The rest of you do the maths. Blame me for being disloyal all you want but I'm merely the voice of an inevitable fan drain if this pans out. Rovers would be lucky to get 5K next season without Dobson and Paterson.

Sorry but you are no fan of Hull KR, I am a fan, I have been a season ticket holder for about 20 years. The club means more to me than just whoever is wearing the shirt on the pitch in the next match or the last. You are watching sport for entertainment, and there is nothing wrong with that, but your interest extends to the product on the pitch.
To me it is so much more. I will support the club in whatever form whatever shape in whatever league as long as it is Hull KR, if it becomes anything else I will never watch another game of RL again!

#64 Brigg Rover

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 11:36 AM

Spot-on. Hull KR are paying the price for 5 years of short-sighted ness. It may be too late for them though.

Hello troll how many of your juniors are in your first team, how many are playing for Australia take your usual bile elsewhere, like maybe under a bridge where you belong.

#65 DeadShotKeen

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 11:46 AM

Sorry but you are no fan of Hull KR, I am a fan, I have been a season ticket holder for about 20 years. The club means more to me than just whoever is wearing the shirt on the pitch in the next match or the last. You are watching sport for entertainment, and there is nothing wrong with that, but your interest extends to the product on the pitch.
To me it is so much more. I will support the club in whatever form whatever shape in whatever league as long as it is Hull KR, if it becomes anything else I will never watch another game of RL again!

I'm afraid that I am a fan of Hull KR and you will just have to accept this. Being a fan does not begin and end with blind acceptance of everything placed in front of you. If the club sells Dobson and Paterson, hikes admission by 20%, club shirts by 50% etc. as of next season I've no doubt you would take great pride in still being there in your new duds rain, wind and hail. This doesn't make you a better fan than me. One man's loyal fan is another man's mug.

Sport fandom is a give/take relationship. You need to give your fanbase reason to keep coming back other than repetitive habit. I would actually argue that I'm a more valuable fan of the sport than you as I give more probing opinion and am more honest. But that's just my take on it, same as yours that you're a better fan than me as you don't ask questions. Neither of us is "right", ultimately. It's a futile argument really. I pay to watch games and buy shirts so I add value to Hull KR and SL. If I bail this is of consequence to both. This is a fact and one you should realistically accept. It's fundamentally disrespectful to tell other fans of RL that their views matter less than yours and when the game stops listening then we might as well all give up and go home.

Edited by DeadShotKeen, 03 May 2013 - 11:47 AM.


#66 Brigg Rover

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 11:49 AM

oh my word - what tosh!!!

Ex Hull FC players now in the KR First Team Squad:-

1. Craig Hall
2. Josh Hodgson
3. Graeme Horne

Take those out of the marvelous "home grown" list and I think you'll find as is the norm, there are more Aussies than any other nationality in Rovers squad!!!

Wrong. But don't let the facts get in the way of a good rant.

15 born in Hull take out the 3 you named makes 12, with me so far?

We have another 7 born in England but outside of Hull.

We have 6 Aussies.

We have 3 from other countries.

So as long as I can count correctly that means that even if you add on the people from other countries (3) to the 6 Aussies that makes 9. 12 is still more than 9 therefore you are wrong.

Now you may try a comeback along the lines of how many make the first 13 or 17 etc or even that 9 from other countries is too many. But that is not what your orginal argument stated and would just be a poor attempt to deflect from the fact you spouted some tosh before checking the facts.

#67 The Parksider

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 02:12 PM

In your own word you said Hull FC should be " castigated " over there junior set up. The current regime had nothing to with the badly managed youth set up of the previous regime so why should they be castigated ? I go and watch a lot of the junior games due to a family member playing for the 19's so I have first hand experience on how FC's junior set up is now run and it is a million miles from were it was. They should be applauded for the way they have invested. You are making comments on your own opinion mine are based on fact.

What I said was if anyone was going to have a go at either club it should more likely be Hull who have had more years in SL to attract the best kids and a free run when Rovers were struggling.

If Hull have got it together now under Pearson and had not done a good job under the old regime which you indicate then of course it stands that the club should be castigated for the poor job it did.

Sure there's an excuse it was the "old regime" but even you yourself say they should have done "a million miles better" Seems I'm making comments on information you have given me. Never mind castigating HKR for the academy set up that is relatively in it's infancy, it's Hull who should have done a million miles better".

Hope that's OK.

Edited by The Parksider, 03 May 2013 - 02:13 PM.


#68 The Parksider

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 02:19 PM

oh my word - what tosh!!!

Ex Hull FC players now in the KR First Team Squad:-

1. Craig Hall
2. Josh Hodgson
3. Graeme Horne

Take those out of the marvelous "home grown" list and I think you'll find as is the norm, there are more Aussies than any other nationality in Rovers squad!!!

Well thanks to Brigg Rover for a more complete and honest analysis.

Both clubs have a number of Hull born lads in their side, better than several other SL clubs.

Both clubs however have used overseas players to make their squads up and try to add some quality.

So at the end of the day they both are pushed for quality playing resources chasing the same young locals and the same overseas stars willing to go to Hull.

Neither are anywhere near the big clubs in SL.

#69 westhuller

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 02:35 PM

What I said was if anyone was going to have a go at either club it should more likely be Hull who have had more years in SL to attract the best kids and a free run when Rovers were struggling.

If Hull have got it together now under Pearson and had not done a good job under the old regime which you indicate then of course it stands that the club should be castigated for the poor job it did.

Sure there's an excuse it was the "old regime" but even you yourself say they should have done "a million miles better" Seems I'm making comments on information you have given me. Never mind castigating HKR for the academy set up that is relatively in it's infancy, it's Hull who should have done a million miles better".

Hope that's OK.


Not really your making it up again show me were I have castigated Rovers academy set up.

#70 HKR AWAY DAYS

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 02:58 PM

I don't think it is spot on.

When Rovers came into Superleague they came in, in a city that already had Hull FC with an established Academy that was taking the best kids in Hull.

It was never going to be easy, or quick for Rovers to establish a share of that, it was always going to take time.

But as a consequence of the licensing system HKR set up their academy straight away and of course seasoned professionals didn't and couldn't suddenly start coming through.

But after several years young lads appeared in the HKR side who are good Superleague players and as I say the HKR squad this year showed more Hull born lads in it than FC's squad.

I dread to think how, if Hunslet had got into Superleague how long it would have taken to have started to beat Leeds to the best local kids. Probably longer than it took HKR to attract them east rather than west of the city.

The other thing on this is if Hunslet had got into SL that would not have changed the number of quality kids playing in the city. When lad like Stevie Ward and Paul McShane came to prominence instead of just joining Leeds automatically there'd have been a tug of war between the clubs.

As I say more Hull born young lads are now in the HKR squad that in the Hull FC squad. That's one heck of an achievement and if anyone should be castigated it's Hull FC who in a hotbed of RL can't do better in their juniors.

But maybe the reality is two clubs in one city end up having to shares resources, and resources halved is less resources for both.

 

Rovers spend £250k a year on youth development. We started from scratch in the NL and brought through a lot of juniors. The majority have moved on, one or two made the grade and are still here or only recently departed. It is short-sighted to suggest Rovers didn't put plans in place when we were outside of the top flight, it has just taken us time to get to the stage where we have young SL- standard players. I think the club have done it the right way. Unfortunately, however, the city of Hull is still missing that elusive top class scrum half.



#71 goldcoaster

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 05:57 PM

Hello troll how many of your juniors are in your first team, how many are playing for Australia take your usual bile elsewhere, like maybe under a bridge where you belong.


No need to make personal attacks. We're here to comment on the sport, not on forum members
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#72 HKR AWAY DAYS

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 06:03 PM

HOMEGROWN
(1) Kris Welham
(2) Jordan Cox
(3) James Green
(4) Rich Beaumont
(5) Aiden Armstrong
(6) Sam Latus
(7) Liam Salter
(8) Rhys Lovegrove
(9) Sonny Esslemont
(10) Chris Heil
(11) Matty Beharrell
(12) Tyla Hepi
(13) Aaron Ollet

FEDERATION
(1) George Griffin
(2) Keal Carlile
(3) Josh Hodgson
(4) Greg Eden
(5) David Hodgson
(6) Graham Horne
(7) Ryan O'Hara
(8) Lincoln Withers
(9) Sean Gleeson
(10) Omari Caro
(11) Alex Brown
(12) Adam Walker

NON-FED/Kolpak
(1) Travis Burns
(2) Mickey Paea
(3) Constantine Mika
(4) Cory Paterson
(5) Evarn Tuimavave

OVERSEAS QUOTA PLAYERS
(1) Travis Burns
(2) Michael Dobson(Dispensation)
 

I think that is just about right. Please consider the differences between federation-trained and homegrown players.



#73 tonyXIII

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 06:26 PM

Is it time we asked JD to close this thread? It's turned into a "Let's slag off HKR" thread, which isn't right. I'm also bored with the whole "Who are Salford bidding for now" nonsense. Why does everything seem to degenerate to this level?


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#74 The Parksider

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 09:57 PM

Not really your making it up again show me were I have castigated Rovers academy set up.

You referred to the "badly managed youth set up of the previous (Hull FC)regime.

You castigated your own club, but excused it by saying the "previous regime" was responsible.

That's no excuse.....Really.

#75 The Parksider

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 10:02 PM

Rovers spend £250k a year on youth development. We started from scratch in the NL and brought through a lot of juniors. The majority have moved on, one or two made the grade and are still here or only recently departed. It is short-sighted to suggest Rovers didn't put plans in place when we were outside of the top flight,

Well lets hope you have read the posts properly unlike West Huller.

It was Goldcoaster who castigated HKR over their junior set up.

I defended them on exactly the same basis you defend them on.

So you should address your comments to Goldcoaster and all the others who assumed because Rovers bought big from down under they were neglecting youth development, which they were not.

#76 The Parksider

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Posted 03 May 2013 - 10:03 PM

Is it time we asked JD to close this thread? It's turned into a "Let's slag off HKR"

Nobody is slagging HKR off Tony, Goldcoaster suggested HKR neglected junior development on entry to Superleague which was wrong. Please read the posts properly.

Nobody has been rude, discourteous, ill mannered or boorish. So why shut down discussion?

Edited by The Parksider, 03 May 2013 - 10:06 PM.


#77 tonyXIII

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 08:41 AM

Nobody is slagging HKR off Tony, Goldcoaster suggested HKR neglected junior development on entry to Superleague which was wrong. Please read the posts properly.

Nobody has been rude, discourteous, ill mannered or boorish. So why shut down discussion?

 

I have read the posts carefully. There is a lot of criticism of HKR, and a lot of outraged defence of their performance.

 

The title is about one club making a bid for players at another club. The discussion is now focused on HKR and their development of 'home grown' talent. It's no longer on topic.

 

You are right about one thing, though. Nobody has crossed the line to become discourteous, ill mannered or boorish. It's just no longer about Dobson and Paterson.


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#78 The Parksider

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 11:10 AM

I have read the posts carefully. There is a lot of criticism of HKR, and a lot of outraged defence of their performance.
 
The title is about one club making a bid for players at another club. The discussion is now focused on HKR and their development of 'home grown' talent. It's no longer on topic.
 
You are right about one thing, though. Nobody has crossed the line to become discourteous, ill mannered or boorish. It's just no longer about Dobson and Paterson.

Well I find it hard to accept that topics must be kept so narrow that only Dobson and Patersons transfer may be discussed in the thread. They are HKR players from overseas and so the idea that they are in the HKR team because HKR have been poor on junior development and are overstuffed with Aussies was a fair idea to float and was fairly rebuffed by the facts particularly by Brigg Rover.

Their impending possible departure is also an effect of the salary cap being too high, and other clubs being stuck for quality players. their departure may hasten HKR's demise which may promote Hull's ambitions.

I do not see that it would be practical to float four seperate discussion posts on these closely associated issues plus a fifth post analysing the myth that Rovers neglect local talent.

If we have a P & R thread can we not talk about club finance, recruitment difficulties, the gap between the division, the effect on crowds etc all seperate threads???

Not for me Tony, let the people speak, someone always brings the thread back on track so closing it due to an exchange over a related side issue would be rather extreme.

Edited by The Parksider, 04 May 2013 - 11:10 AM.





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