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#461 bewareshadows

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 10:05 PM

I think this idea of a mortgage on the top 8 is false.  Apart from Widnes and Salford, I think nearly all the other clubs have made top 8 over the years.  Warrington being a top flight team is a fairly new thing, it was not long ago that Huddersfield, Hull, Hull KR all played in  lower leagues.

 

Just because you cannot envision Sheffield coming back to SL, it does not mean it will not happen.

 

Also a question on the funding.  Has anyone seen this????  Or are people projecting the current funding system into the next system???

 

I've not seen anything on funding, but if you remove the cap from SL2, then there is nothing to say that SL2 teams can't fund a team to make a run on SL1.

 

Like I say, I've seen nothing on funding and until a system is picked, even the RL community itself has no idea.  To me I can see the arguement for crowds increasing, others see differently, but no one knows.  If it follows my theory, then the gap in revenue will close and there will be more fulltime clubs, which should make for better funding from crowds, corporate, merchandising and TV.

 

I still think option 3 offers more than a 12 team SL. To me that just seams like the RL giving up and saying we can't expand and we are stuck where we are.  I'd still like to think another French team, Sheffield and Wales could make a move on SL1.  The option 3 allows a money man to come in and do this quicker than previously.


Super League the only place in the world where people still believe that less competitors and a closed market to new competition will improve the quality of the product.

Even the Chinese and the Cubans gave up on these marxist principles years ago.


SL with a reduced number of competitors and a closed market = North Korea.

#462 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 10:24 PM

So what you're saying is that one or two other clubs are finally challenging the hegemony.

In that case, why completely change everything????

Because licensing has alienated a lot of the rugby league family, causing a lot of unrest. Many of the gripes of the fans of those clubs are unjust admittedly and are based on bitterness, but many are. It doesn't look good to an outsider when a sport is divided by decisions made by those at the top. The intentions were good behind licensing, but I don't believe it's achieved what it was meant to. 4 clubs have pretty much hit the wall in that time so it's protected poorly run clubs.
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#463 jpmc

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 10:33 PM

It dont take long to form a myth does it.
Contrary to what is being preached on these forums these changes have very little to do with championship clubs.Its mainly down to the fact that most sl clubs have failed or the benefactors of the clubs that haven't quite failed yet are tired of pumping 100s of thousands into clubs just so they can stand still

Edited by jpmc, 12 May 2013 - 10:33 PM.


#464 Bartholemew Smythe

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 10:52 PM

Good point: how did this juicy passionate local derby that hadn't happened for so long rate amongst wigans home games throughout the season?

Do you work in Politics?

 

Apart from answering  `good point`........ Expand on `good point` please... you`ve  then asked a question which should be aimed at one of your Total Buddies, I`m sure he won`t be too far away. 


We`re on a road to Nowhere.......................

#465 Bartholemew Smythe

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 11:03 PM

Its not about how many you get when the away supporters top up your coffers, its about how many you can get in when the away club brings zilched.

 

Relying on away support is not an option.

Indeed but don`t Saints,Wire etc top up your coffers every season?

 

As you know I was replying to your Total Buddy and to his particular post.


We`re on a road to Nowhere.......................

#466 Pottsy

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 11:37 PM

Because licensing has alienated a lot of the rugby league family, causing a lot of unrest. Many of the gripes of the fans of those clubs are unjust admittedly and are based on bitterness, but many are. It doesn't look good to an outsider when a sport is divided by decisions made by those at the top. The intentions were good behind licensing, but I don't believe it's achieved what it was meant to. 4 clubs have pretty much hit the wall in that time so it's protected poorly run clubs.


You're right about licensing but you were also right earlier when you alluded to the fact that it was a necessary evil.

We do need to find a way to open up a route to Super League for all aspiring (and sustainable) clubs but this simply isn't the right way of going about it.

#467 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 06:19 AM

Do you work in Politics?

Apart from answering `good point`........ Expand on `good point` please... you`ve then asked a question which should be aimed at one of your Total Buddies, I`m sure he won`t be too far away.

Indeed but don`t Saints,Wire etc top up your coffers every season?

As you know I was replying to your Total Buddy and to his particular post.

Do you realise how petty you sound?
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#468 The Parksider

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 06:37 AM

Also a question on the funding.  Has anyone seen this????  Or are people projecting the current funding system into the next system???
 
I've not seen anything on funding, but if you remove the cap from SL2, then there is nothing to say that SL2 teams can't fund a team to make a run on SL1. 

The option 3 allows a money man to come in and do this quicker than previously.

The SKY funding remains £1,200,000 a years to the SL clubs but £180,000 to the CC clubs thus a gap of over a £Million in wages.

Yes the idea opens up the chance for big investors to come in and turn their clubs around pretty quickly and the middle 8 clubs will be crying "come and get us rich men"

Superleague however has been open to rich men to come in and pour millions into our clubs for seventeen years and the record is they are made most welcome. If anyone wants to do it now they can buy up London, Castleford, Widnes, Hull.K.R. or choose an expansion club and pump millions in there.

Forget the league structure, just go racing with Nigel Wood and your in.......

#469 JohnM

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 08:14 AM

Rearranging the deckchairs on the titanic....BEFORE it has sailed.

Give poorly run loss making clubs more money and what will happen? Yes, they'll still be poorly run and they'll still be loss making and they will have wasted the money.

Leigh and others have shown that there is just not enough demand in their area of appeal to support a viable and sustainable top level presence.

The current system has at least the virtue of making the bar to entry high enough so that only well financed well run and successful clubs can get in, clubs that can show they will use the sky money well...hence it seems that
Fev will get there...and stay there.


For me there should be but one objective and one objective only: do whatever it takes to beat the Aussies on a regular basis. If we could do this, the national media would give more coverage and we'd gain more money - from fans, from TV, from sponsors...

In fact, if give SL clubs more money to develop more home grown talent, make them pay transfer fees to the clubs they get UK players from ...etc...Do that and the rest will follow.

#470 a.n Other

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 08:20 AM



Give poorly run loss making clubs more money and what will happen? Yes, they'll still be poorly run and they'll still be loss making and they will have wasted the money.





In fact, if give SL clubs more money to develop more home grown talent, make them pay transfer fees to the clubs they get UK players from ...etc...Do that and the rest will follow.


Haven't you just contradicted yourself there? Or do you mean give the 2 or 3 SL clubs that make a profit more money?

#471 Amber Avenger

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 08:46 AM

What was said?

 

Chappers essentially called the proposal bonkers (but not directly and slightly more elegantly) and said it had taken the production team near enough a full day to produce a graphic that explained the structure anything close to resembling clarity, so what chance did anyone else have of understanding it. Nigel Wood said that it was slightly offensive to the intelligence of RL fans to suggest they wouldn’t understand it. Chappers replied that, with respect, existing RL fans are not the issue, and for trying to attract new people to the sport this system is really putting themselves up against it. Nigel Wood didn’t really have an answer to that – at least not a convincing one. If he had wanted to, Chappers could have really pushed him on the issue, but he actually took a pretty balanced tone overall. I wasn’t left particularly convinced that Nigel Wood had a lot of faith in the proposals myself.


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#472 Walter Ego

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 09:37 AM

On radio Manchester after the salford game Brian Noble made the point that within the divisions of eight each game would be of a higher intensity. Which is something many people have been crying out for.



#473 The Parksider

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 09:41 AM

Chappers essentially called the proposal bonkers (but not directly and slightly more elegantly) and said it had taken the production team near enough a full day to produce a graphic that explained the structure anything close to resembling clarity, so what chance did anyone else have of understanding it. Nigel Wood said that it was slightly offensive to the intelligence of RL fans to suggest they wouldn’t understand it. Chappers replied that, with respect, existing RL fans are not the issue, and for trying to attract new people to the sport this system is really putting themselves up against it. Nigel Wood didn’t really have an answer to that – at least not a convincing one. If he had wanted to, Chappers could have really pushed him on the issue, but he actually took a pretty balanced tone overall. I wasn’t left particularly convinced that Nigel Wood had a lot of faith in the proposals myself.

Very interesting piece, very interesting view adding to a growing feeling Nigel Wood is not "leading" but is being led by CEO's with only their own clubs interest at heart.

#474 nadera78

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 09:57 AM

Very interesting piece, very interesting view adding to a growing feeling Nigel Wood is not "leading" but is being led by CEO's with only their own clubs interest at heart.

Which is exactly what was feared when Richard Lewis left. Nigel Wood is not up to the job, but he suits the purposes of some people within the game because they have the opportunity to outmanoeuvre him and get their own way. All of this happened before Lewis and it's happening again now. The self-interest at work within RL is what has truly held our game back ever since 1895. Small people running a small game and for small benefit.


"Just as we had been Cathars, we were treizistes, men apart."
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#475 gingerjon

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 10:00 AM

Which is exactly what was feared when Richard Lewis left. Nigel Wood is not up to the job, but he suits the purposes of some people within the game because they have the opportunity to outmanoeuvre him and get their own way. All of this happened before Lewis and it's happening again now. The self-interest at work within RL is what has truly held our game back ever since 1895. Small people running a small game and for small benefit.

 

Absolutely right.


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#476 The Parksider

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 10:48 AM

Which is exactly what was feared when Richard Lewis left. Nigel Wood is not up to the job, but he suits the purposes of some people within the game because they have the opportunity to outmanoeuvre him and get their own way. All of this happened before Lewis and it's happening again now. The self-interest at work within RL is what has truly held our game back ever since 1895. Small people running a small game and for small benefit.

Well it was alleged that Richard Lewis threatened to resign when the clubs wanted to vote london out. Strong leadership?

Not sure that Mr. Wood has his own thoughts as to how to sort out the clubs self interest and is prepared to resign on the matter.

Richard Lewis had the CV to go elsewhere. Does Mr. Wood? I'll leave that to Lizzie to answer......

#477 JohnM

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 07:46 PM

Haven't you just contradicted yourself there? Or do you mean give the 2 or 3 SL clubs that make a profit more money?


No contradiction. Let all the badly run clubs die.

#478 RSN

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 09:09 PM

Your joking surely?

Leigh cannot even pay part time wages.

The three other clubs average 1,000 fans.

With respect we go round in circles on the issue of what clubs can achieve, because we do not seem to grasp the reality of the finances of the game.


No chance in the world for Barrow?

Currently in a bit of a mess I know currently. But as it stands we are having to pay half a million debt off and raise 100k in one season for flood lights. Added to the fact we have had to improve our squad quite considerably due to the big step between CC1 and CC and have had to go 5 weeks without a home game in the middle of the season it's no wonder why we are struggling, I doubt most clubs would of been able to deal with what we are currently.

It obviously wouldn't be do able now to step up to full time now as we need to get our house in order which I feel the BOD are working very hard to do. But let's say in 2 - 3 years time if the half a million debt is gone, we have got the new flood lights and have built up an established CC team.

A catchment area of 80k, we own our own ground, have a decent amateur game behind us and have no SL club to cherry pick us like other CC clubs fear.

The obvious point is about attendances which you pointed out we are averaging 1000. The main factor is really that the CC is such a hard sell and we are being forced to focus on other aspects on the club rather than marketing. From a floating fan point of you why would you go watch the CC? It's so repetitive and you don't feel the club is going anywhere. The town can get behind a sports team and deliver 3k crowds. Both the soccer and RL have manages 3k when they feel the club's are going somewhere, when they realised that they realistically arnt any time soon they dropped off. Also we got 6700 against Wigan in 09 (many don't believe that figure) we took 2000 to Saints and the soccer have took 10k to Sunderland, Wembley and Middlesborough so there is potential for Barrow to get behind a sports side.

I'm not deluded enough to think that crowds would instantly rise to 5k if we went full time in a sport which has some form of p and r (unlike others, not naming names) but there maybe a way to get Barrow to go full time progressively maybe starting with half the squad and building the club up as we have more of a product to sell.

Not saying that Barrow could definitely go full time instantly or in the immediate future, but I think it would be unfair to write them off completely to do so in some form of a second tier.

#479 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 09:21 PM

No contradiction. Let all the badly run clubs die.


Such as Bradford etc?

#480 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 09:36 PM

Such as Bradford etc?

 

 

Such as Bradford etc?

fair point

also well run clubs can have difficulties as well. Plus clubs can have success on the field but be badly run: this usually comes to ligt the following season aftr a good campaign.

 

how well has your club been run over past decades?


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