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Super League 2 leagues of 12


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#481 Larry the Leit

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 09:44 PM

fair point

also well run clubs can have difficulties as well. Plus clubs can have success on the field but be badly run: this usually comes to ligt the following season aftr a good campaign.

 

how well has your club been run over past decades?

 

Frank, what's with the double quotes?


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#482 Doghead

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 10:36 PM

Do you really think they'll cut four clubs' funding by up to £1million on the basis of the first 11 games of the season?

How would clubs possibly budget for the year? They'd have to have their players and staff on month-by-month contracts!

where do you get £1Million from.

#483 Pottsy

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 10:59 PM

where do you get £1Million from.


Super League funding is £1.2million.

Proposed funding for 'super' League 2 is £180,000.

Give or take £20k I'll leave you to do the rest yourself.

#484 Pottsy

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 11:31 PM

No chance in the world for Barrow?

Currently in a bit of a mess I know currently. But as it stands we are having to pay half a million debt off and raise 100k in one season for flood lights. Added to the fact we have had to improve our squad quite considerably due to the big step between CC1 and CC and have had to go 5 weeks without a home game in the middle of the season it's no wonder why we are struggling, I doubt most clubs would of been able to deal with what we are currently.

It obviously wouldn't be do able now to step up to full time now as we need to get our house in order which I feel the BOD are working very hard to do. But let's say in 2 - 3 years time if the half a million debt is gone, we have got the new flood lights and have built up an established CC team.

A catchment area of 80k, we own our own ground, have a decent amateur game behind us and have no SL club to cherry pick us like other CC clubs fear.

The obvious point is about attendances which you pointed out we are averaging 1000. The main factor is really that the CC is such a hard sell and we are being forced to focus on other aspects on the club rather than marketing. From a floating fan point of you why would you go watch the CC? It's so repetitive and you don't feel the club is going anywhere. The town can get behind a sports team and deliver 3k crowds. Both the soccer and RL have manages 3k when they feel the club's are going somewhere, when they realised that they realistically arnt any time soon they dropped off. Also we got 6700 against Wigan in 09 (many don't believe that figure) we took 2000 to Saints and the soccer have took 10k to Sunderland, Wembley and Middlesborough so there is potential for Barrow to get behind a sports side.

I'm not deluded enough to think that crowds would instantly rise to 5k if we went full time in a sport which has some form of p and r (unlike others, not naming names) but there maybe a way to get Barrow to go full time progressively maybe starting with half the squad and building the club up as we have more of a product to sell.

Not saying that Barrow could definitely go full time instantly or in the immediate future, but I think it would be unfair to write them off completely to do so in some form of a second tier.


You know the local area so I'll accept your figures; they're certainly not as fanciful as some have speculated on here (again, no names).

You allude to a key point though here: the only real way to have sustainable P&R is by developing the second tier clubs to the point where promotion to Super League is a natural progression, rather than a speculative leap into the unknown.

With this in mind, the only logical step I can see is for the licensing process to be rolled out to the Championship.

Speaking purely as a fan (so please don't pick too many holes out of my figures!), here's a rough guide to how I'd like to see this achieved:

1) Announce that from 2015 Super League is to be cut to 12 teams (10 UK, 2 France).

2) Licenses for a 10-team Championship are also announced. The three teams dropping down from Super League would most likely be joined by Fev, Fax, Sheffield and three others (not necessarily those currently in the Championship) for what could potentially be a very intense comp in its own right.

3) Allowing for some form of parachute payment in year one for the three demoted clubs, the £2.4million*
saved by dropping Super League is redistributed between the 10 license holders. The proviso being that some of the money is ring fenced in order to cover the cost of key off-field positions.

4) The additional £240k per club could then be used to assist clubs in employing a full-time squad of young British players, in readiness for a move up to Super League**.

5) After a short bedding in period (1-2 years) in order to enable the clubs to build infrastructure and become stabilised, one-up, one-down promotion to Super League is reinstated.

6) We then turn our attention to developing the clubs in CC1 with the intention of opening up two further Championship licenses and the ultimate aim of reopening P&R between CC and CC1.


It's hypothetical, and I'm sure some of you will love picking holes in this plan, but I think this is a decent route towards sustainable P&R.


* if the French do negotiate their own TV deal that could free up more central funding.

** structuring the central funding in a way that encourages clubs to run with young British talent whilst limiting imports (ie, one per club) could actually aid the promoted clubs as they could retain the core of their Championship side but augment it with overseas talent as and when they gain promotion to Super League.



OK, I've stuck my head above the parapet, feel free to shoot me down.

#485 Pottsy

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Posted 13 May 2013 - 11:38 PM

Ps, in an ideal world you'd tell the 12 clubs fortunate (and rich enough!) to be awarded the 12 SL franchises that their central funding was to be reduced by £200k pa in order to generate a further £2.4million in Championship funding but I suspect the tail wags the dog a bit too much for that to happen!

#486 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 05:11 AM

Ps, in an ideal world you'd tell the 12 clubs fortunate (and rich enough!) to be awarded the 12 SL franchises that their central funding was to be reduced by £200k pa in order to generate a further £2.4million in Championship funding but I suspect the tail wags the dog a bit too much for that to happen!


If they are rich enough then presumably they can afford a handout cut?

Wigan ran a pro team before SL with no sky money

#487 Pottsy

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 06:04 AM

If they are rich enough then presumably they can afford a handout cut?

Wigan ran a pro team before SL with no sky money


Sounds great in theory, Lobby, but let's not forget that Wigan bankrupted itself running that team.

#488 jpmc

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 07:06 AM

What kind of a dog is it cos its seems to have a bleedin massive tail

#489 The Parksider

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 08:20 AM

1. The only real way to have sustainable P&R is by developing the second tier clubs to the point where promotion to Super League is a natural progression, rather than a speculative leap into the unknown.

2. In an ideal world you'd tell the 12 clubs fortunate (and rich enough!) to be awarded the 12 SL franchises

1. That seems an excellent rule to work to in a business sense. It won't get past fans who don't care if their club can't afford SL they just want a go at it, see their club play top sides and see if they can pick up a few scalps. Something we used to look forward to when Hunslet were able to win promotion. Some of the "First Division" scalps we picked up are amongst my biggest memories. Oddly we never beat Salford.

2. You've got to 12 before knowing who IS rich enough. We have CC directors hinting they're going to put millions into their clubs and SL directors "standing down" and leaving an open door for "new investment".
Beyond the automatic picks who are in through their fanbases it initially seems to me that who goes in SL depends on whose Directors can afford to fund it.

Affordability depends on "how much" and Jamie Peacock suggests a drop in the cap to £1.5M so we can find 12 clubs that can afford Superleague. Before anyone suggests Peacock is a dumb prop, I'm sure he speaks to Gary Hetherington on these issues.

If that came about then you'd need "second tier clubs (coming) to the point where promotion to Super League is a natural progression" The massive rise in the wage bill necessary would be a hurdle overcome by the £1.4M SKY money.

In practice this looks like a simple return to how we operated 2000-2006.

#490 a.n Other

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 08:28 AM


No contradiction. Let all the badly run clubs die.


Define badly run? I would guess only two maybe three teams in SL make a profit and in the Championship around the same. So these should get all the money?

#491 The Parksider

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 08:38 AM

No chance in the world for Barrow?

I'm coming round to P & R big style, not sure the way to solve the problems of the SL/CC divide is to effectively kill off Championship clubs through deliberate policy.

Let market forces do that and allow clubs the freedom to rise or fall on those market forces.

Des Johnston got you to champions and maybe you should have gone up, so you have proved you could get there.

How do you think you'd have gone if you had been promoted on a pure auto P & R basis??

#492 XIII

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 09:04 AM

1. That seems an excellent rule to work to in a business sense. It won't get past fans who don't care if their club can't afford SL they just want a go at it, see their club play top sides and see if they can pick up a few scalps. Something we used to look forward to when Hunslet were able to win promotion. Some of the "First Division" scalps we picked up are amongst my biggest memories. Oddly we never beat Salford.2. You've got to 12 before knowing who IS rich enough. We have CC directors hinting they're going to put millions into their clubs and SL directors "standing down" and leaving an open door for "new investment".Beyond the automatic picks who are in through their fanbases it initially seems to me that who goes in SL depends on whose Directors can afford to fund it.Affordability depends on "how much" and Jamie Peacock suggests a drop in the cap to £1.5M so we can find 12 clubs that can afford Superleague. Before anyone suggests Peacock is a dumb prop, I'm sure he speaks to Gary Hetherington on these issues.If that came about then you'd need "second tier clubs (coming) to the point where promotion to Super League is a natural progression" The massive rise in the wage bill necessary would be a hurdle overcome by the £1.4M SKY money.In practice this looks like a simple return to how we operated 2000-2006.


Peacock also suggests that 2 Marquee players can be signed outside of that cap amount on whatever the clubs want to pay , so for the teams that can afford it their wage bill will be going up.

#493 The Parksider

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 09:20 AM

Peacock also suggests that 2 Marquee players can be signed outside of that cap amount on whatever the clubs want to pay , so for the teams that can afford it their wage bill will be going up.

I never mentioned "Marquee" players because I don't believe Owen Farrell will return to Wigan or James Graham to Saints (until he's clapped out at least) and wayne rooney won't sign for Salford.

The only "Marquee" players I can think of are such as Kallum Watkins, or Jonny Lomax, or Liam Farrel, or Chris Hill and surprise surprise they are at top SL clubs.

The marquee system would be fair and equitable if all SL clubs could have two world stars each. Instead all it will do is perpetrate the same clubs winning stuff, so Peacock talks about competitiveness on one hand then talks about skewing the competitiveness on the other.

Edited by The Parksider, 14 May 2013 - 09:20 AM.


#494 Larry the Leit

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 09:23 AM

Peacock also suggests that 2 Marquee players can be signed outside of that cap amount on whatever the clubs want to pay , so for the teams that can afford it their wage bill will be going up.

 

Peacock should stick to doing what he does best; playing the game, and getting more tattoos. 


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#495 Hornets are u ready ready

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 07:33 PM

I wish they would just come up with a decent idea once and for all and stop swapping and changing the sport, it's becoming a joke

#496 JohnM

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 01:02 AM

Define badly run? I would guess only two maybe three teams in SL make a profit and in the Championship around the same. So these should get all the money?


Badly run, not profitable.

Bradford and Salford have hit problems but have had enough skill, ability, determination, potential, personality, attractiveness, ingenuity etc to pull through.

Ditto Fev.

Leigh, well that's a different story.

#497 a.n Other

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 07:43 AM

Badly run, not profitable.

Bradford and Salford have hit problems but have had enough skill, ability, determination, potential, personality, attractiveness, ingenuity etc to pull through.

Ditto Fev.

Leigh, well that's a different story.


All clubs have shown the above, or else they still wouldn't be in business. Clubs like Swinton who have nearly gone to the wall numerous times have shown this and are still going despite fans deserting them and going to support other teams.

So again, define badly run?

#498 Ackroman

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 07:55 AM

All clubs have shown the above, or else they still wouldn't be in business. Clubs like Swinton who have nearly gone to the wall numerous times have shown this and are still going despite fans deserting them and going to support other teams.

So again, define badly run?

Ones without a sugar daddy or a Sky licence I presume?

There are some excellently run clubs in the Championship. People like John wipe their feet on the way out due to their overbearing arrogance.

#499 XIII

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 08:06 AM

I never mentioned "Marquee" players because I don't believe Owen Farrell will return to Wigan or James Graham to Saints (until he's clapped out at least) and wayne rooney won't sign for Salford.The only "Marquee" players I can think of are such as Kallum Watkins, or Jonny Lomax, or Liam Farrel, or Chris Hill and surprise surprise they are at top SL clubs.The marquee system would be fair and equitable if all SL clubs could have two world stars each. Instead all it will do is perpetrate the same clubs winning stuff, so Peacock talks about competitiveness on one hand then talks about skewing the competitiveness on the other.


As long as there is a salary cap at all, the same clubs will always win stuff. The only way this will stop is if someone like Dr Koukash can pay way over the odds for payers. Lets face it, say for example Dobson is going to leave Hull KR and sign for Salford or Saints. If each club offers him say 120k per year, there is no question he will end up at Saints. I dare say if Salford were to offer him 140k he would still sign for Saints on 120k as they are currently the bigger club. That is the main reason why the salary cap doesn't work in that it assumes players will always go where more money is on offer, whereas the reality is they will go to the big clubs with chances to win things as long as they can get a decent wage.

My view is what Peacock is doing as not just talking about competitiveness, but about he need to keep players in and attract players to Super League. And contrary to this allowing the same clubs to win stuff, I think that this is what gives the lesser clubs a better chance as it allows them to pay the extra wages required to attract the star players to them without it affecting the cap. Ie, in looking at the scenario above, Salford could offer Dobson 200k, which would then be enough to get him to pick signing for Salford over Saints.

#500 The Parksider

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 08:17 AM

1. There are some excellently run clubs in the Championship.

2. People like John....... overbearing arrogance.

1. I agree entirely, the current Halifax regime I heard turned a £30,000 profit on what? A £900K turnover?. My bet is Dewsbury are superbly run. Batley certainly are. However being well run and profitable doesn't qualify anyone to seriously enter a league where the turnover is in the £Millions.

2. You've never met John I guess and are judging him personally based on a throwaway debate on a website?




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