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#501 jpmc

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 08:20 AM

Badly run, not profitable.

Bradford and Salford have hit problems but have had enough skill, ability, determination, potential, personality, attractiveness, ingenuity etc to pull through.

Ditto Fev.

Leigh, well that's a different story.

Ingenuity,thats an interesting way of saying went out of business leaving dozens of people and other businesses out of pocket then started up again with a clean slate

#502 The Parksider

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 08:25 AM

Lets face it, say for example Dobson is going to leave Hull KR and sign for Salford or Saints. If each club offers him say 120k per year, there is no question he will end up at Saints. I dare say if Salford were to offer him 140k he would still sign for Saints on 120k as they are currently the bigger club. That is the main reason why the salary cap doesn't work in that it assumes players will always go where more money is on offer, whereas the reality is they will go to the big clubs with chances to win things as long as they can get a decent wage.

The first problem is clubs who can't pay the salary cap and then that above is the second problem I agree entirely.

If the key to Super league success is evenin up the competition that won't happen as long as clubs are made to compete both on the pitch and off it.

To enable Bradford to continue to compete the clubs put an embargo on signing their players when they went bust.
All the clubs need to do here is allow Koukash a clear run at a couple of "marquee" players like Chase, Patterson and Dobson.

The loonies in Superleague are themselves skewing the competition, and making it predictable, but that Bradford embargo, and a stated intention for SL to buy the club id nobody else would was at least a sign they are starting to recognise that they need to work and plan as one.

#503 Saintslass

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 08:54 AM

Ingenuity,thats an interesting way of saying went out of business leaving dozens of people and other businesses out of pocket then started up again with a clean slate

Salford paid all their debts as they didn't go into administration.



#504 jpmc

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 09:10 AM

Salford paid all their debts as they didn't go into administration.

I dont think they have.
I think they said they would pay them off over the 25yrs or so

#505 Ackroman

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 09:54 AM

1. I agree entirely, the current Halifax regime I heard turned a £30,000 profit on what? A £900K turnover?. My bet is Dewsbury are superbly run. Batley certainly are. However being well run and profitable doesn't qualify anyone to seriously enter a league where the turnover is in the £Millions.

2. You've never met John I guess and are judging him personally based on a throwaway debate on a website?

I haven't met anyone on here. Not knowingly anyway.

And quite frankly your defence of his flippant comment say it all about this board. On one hand you want reasoned arguments from those you disagree with but defend crass sweeping generalisations from those you admire.

#506 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 10:01 AM

I haven't met anyone on here. Not knowingly anyway.

And quite frankly your defence of his flippant comment say it all about this board. On one hand you want reasoned arguments from those you disagree with but defend crass sweeping generalisations from those you admire.


I haven't met anyone on here. Not knowingly anyway.

And quite frankly your defence of his flippant comment say it all about this board. On one hand you want reasoned arguments from those you disagree with but defend crass sweeping generalisations from those you admire.

I've met loads including John. I've thoroughly enjoyed his company, and that of others. I even make music with one of them. I've also enjoyed debating with him over the years
I think John's comment was offside, but a good point lies at the heart of it. It relates to what purpose do some clubs serve in professional rugby league. I think its a point worth discussing and has been touched on previously indirectly by people such as Parksider on previous occassions.

Please don't judge Joihn M on one comment.

Edited by l'angelo mysterioso, 15 May 2013 - 01:22 PM.

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#507 roughyedspud

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 10:06 AM

how where widnes able to turnover £2.5m and make a £1m+ profit from the championship back in 2009?




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#508 DeadShotKeen

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 11:37 AM

As long as there is a salary cap at all, the same clubs will always win stuff. The only way this will stop is if someone like Dr Koukash can pay way over the odds for payers. Lets face it, say for example Dobson is going to leave Hull KR and sign for Salford or Saints. If each club offers him say 120k per year, there is no question he will end up at Saints. I dare say if Salford were to offer him 140k he would still sign for Saints on 120k as they are currently the bigger club. That is the main reason why the salary cap doesn't work in that it assumes players will always go where more money is on offer, whereas the reality is they will go to the big clubs with chances to win things as long as they can get a decent wage.

My view is what Peacock is doing as not just talking about competitiveness, but about he need to keep players in and attract players to Super League. And contrary to this allowing the same clubs to win stuff, I think that this is what gives the lesser clubs a better chance as it allows them to pay the extra wages required to attract the star players to them without it affecting the cap. Ie, in looking at the scenario above, Salford could offer Dobson 200k, which would then be enough to get him to pick signing for Salford over Saints.

The big NBA move before the start of this season was James Harden from Oklahoma City Thunder to Houston Rockets. He'd elevated his status at the cap-limit Thunder so became a target for those clubs with cap space, of whom the Rockets posted the best offer. The Thunder had the chance to go into the (now more punitive) luxury tax to match or get nearer the salary and keep him but declined, presumably for purely cash reasons. Harden thus chose the struggling Rockets and turned them into a play-off team, although they were bounced in the 1st round by his old Thunder mates, despite him playing a starring role. His increased minutes on the floor this season with the Rockets also earned him his first All Star appearance.

That isn't an unusual scenario by any means. In all of the US sports players generally move down the league ladder to "get theirs" and it's obviously very healthy in terms of the product you're putting on the telly.

Your comment is only accurate in terms of its immediacy. I agree that Dobson would choose Saints in the situation you outline, but only because they enjoy a hierarchical standing of many years' making. Such standings don't exist in the NBA and nor would they in SL given at least 10 years of franchising with a cap all teams could pay. Dobson then picks the highest bidder.

Removing the cap just allows success to breed success. Yes Salford prize Dobson away from Saints but in a distinctly brutal and unhealthy manner. The best teams pay the most money and we get EPL style boredom.

You have some of the right ideas there but you haven't joined them up properly or thought more long-term. Which sounds a lot like European rugby league in general, ironically.

#509 DeadShotKeen

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 12:38 PM

So in direct response to Peacock and his wish for marquee players at all clubs, this can only happen in a strong, well-balanced league. A salary capped league is only as strong as its weakest point. If you have x teams all capable of paying y cap then by definition it is almost impossible for any team NOT to have 1 or more marquee player(s). Which NRL side doesn’t have a few, for example?

Whereas if within a capped league there is still a financial hierarchy then by definition it is impossible for those at the bottom to keep a marquee player. See: Chase, Clark, Dobson, Paterson, Taylor, Salford pre-Koukash….

The solution is franchising and mergers. We don’t want them so people like Peacock should really just shut up and get on with winning stuff ad infinitum with his other elite buddies.

#510 XIII

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 12:53 PM

The big NBA move before the start of this season was James Harden from Oklahoma City Thunder to Houston Rockets. He'd elevated his status at the cap-limit Thunder so became a target for those clubs with cap space, of whom the Rockets posted the best offer. The Thunder had the chance to go into the (now more punitive) luxury tax to match or get nearer the salary and keep him but declined, presumably for purely cash reasons. Harden thus chose the struggling Rockets and turned them into a play-off team, although they were bounced in the 1st round by his old Thunder mates, despite him playing a starring role. His increased minutes on the floor this season with the Rockets also earned him his first All Star appearance.That isn't an unusual scenario by any means. In all of the US sports players generally move down the league ladder to "get theirs" and it's obviously very healthy in terms of the product you're putting on the telly.Your comment is only accurate in terms of its immediacy. I agree that Dobson would choose Saints in the situation you outline, but only because they enjoy a hierarchical standing of many years' making. Such standings don't exist in the NBA and nor would they in SL given at least 10 years of franchising with a cap all teams could pay. Dobson then picks the highest bidder.Removing the cap just allows success to breed success. Yes Salford prize Dobson away from Saints but in a distinctly brutal and unhealthy manner. The best teams pay the most money and we get EPL style boredom.You have some of the right ideas there but you haven't joined them up properly or thought more long-term. Which sounds a lot like European rugby league in general, ironically.


And I agree that the US league sporting model is far superior here. I think that to address a range of issues we have as a sport a draft would be the best way to go. I haven't fully sat down and gone through the ins and outs, but on the face I would better suit a franchise model.

#511 The Parksider

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 01:02 PM

And quite frankly your defence of his flippant comment say it all about this board. On one hand you want reasoned arguments from those you disagree with but defend crass sweeping generalisations from those you admire.

I admire you Sir when we are having our debates.

I can put up with JohnM because there's nothing I can detect as being nasty and personal in his posts.

Let's get back to the debates shall we??

#512 The Parksider

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 01:06 PM

So in direct response to Peacock and his wish for marquee players at all clubs, this can only happen in a strong, well-balanced league. A salary capped league is only as strong as its weakest point. If you have x teams all capable of paying y cap then by definition it is almost impossible for any team NOT to have 1 or more marquee player(s).

The solution is franchising and mergers. We don’t want them so people like Peacock should really just shut up and get on with winning stuff ad infinitum with his other elite buddies.

Your still here I see and still talking sense when not talking HKR!!

Stick with the debate and the game, there's a lot that can still happen, indeed there's a lot that may have to happen yet.

Things are in such a mess that the "ad infinitum" is not an option IMHO (and yours?)and the proposals as most seem to agree are not a solution.

So at some point something will have to give and the radical solutions you seek could happen....

#513 Bartholemew Smythe

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 02:35 PM

Badly run, not profitable.

Bradford and Salford have hit problems but have had enough skill, ability, determination, potential, personality, attractiveness, ingenuity etc to pull through.

Ditto Fev.

Leigh, well that's a different story.

Did Leigh owe more money to creditors than Bradford or Salford..........Or is that a different story?


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#514 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 05:07 PM


Did Leigh owe more money to creditors than Bradford or Salford..........Or is that a different story?


One would have thought that Salford Nd Bradford were a better long term investment: their new backers would appear to agree
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#515 zorquif

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 06:31 PM


And I agree that the US league sporting model is far superior here. I think that to address a range of issues we have as a sport a draft would be the best way to go. I haven't fully sat down and gone through the ins and outs, but on the face I would better suit a franchise model.


You can't have a draft without an independent feeder league... Would it not be seen as unfair to remove the advantage that Wigan, Leeds etc have earned by investing in a youth system by going to a draft? Also, how would this system be funded? Presumably each of the teams in the top league would cough up. As it would be limited by the lowest spender then investment in youth development would go down overall, wouldn't it? How would this benefit the game?

Edited by zorquif, 15 May 2013 - 07:13 PM.


#516 JohnM

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 07:04 PM

Ones without a sugar daddy or a Sky licence I presume?

There are some excellently run clubs in the Championship. People like John wipe their feet on the way out due to their overbearing arrogance.

 Please point out where I said that there were not? 

 

In all leagues there are well run clubs and badly run clubs.

 

In all leagues there are some well run clubs that have become badly run for some reason.

 

In all leagues there are some badly run clubs that have become well run clubs for some reason.

 

Whatever, unless the fans, the poor b.loody infantry of our game, actually own or have a big say in the running of a club much of it is out of their control.

 

In the case of a club going into adminstration, yes , some creditors lose money. The alternative is liquidation, in which all creditors generally lose all their money. I always thought that the creditor had to agree to an administration, so that in the case of Bradford, perhaps they concluded that administration gave them some chance of getting their money from the club rather than liqudation, where they would almost certainly get none, if they had neglected to insure against that eventuality.

 

Of course, clubs like my native Swinton had a sucession of bad situations until they reached their current position and it is a credit to all those involved that yes, they are still going.

 

Also , it is to the credit of all involved at Fev that they have fought doggedly to get to where they are now.

 

But our game is in reality quite small, the turnover of our best clubs after 118 years only just  matching that of an IBM software reseller a mate of mine set up just 3 years ago. 

 

My concern is that any new scheme for the game may inject money into clubs at all levels that will just waste such a scarce resource, particularly if a club has unjustifiable aspirations.


Edited by JohnM, 15 May 2013 - 07:09 PM.


#517 JohnM

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 07:07 PM

Did Leigh owe more money to creditors than Bradford or Salford..........Or is that a different story?

 

The unpalatable fact is that Leigh have been unable to attract any significant level of "investment" or more accurately, donation. I wonder why that is?



#518 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 08:04 PM

The unpalatable fact is that Leigh have been unable to attract any significant level of "investment" or more accurately, donation. I wonder why that is?


Well, since 2008 it is because there is no cast iron guarantee that the investment will get the club in SL within 3 years. The panel could always say "no". Personally I would not invest in a championship club as it stands.

With on the pitch results defining the promoted team it will be easier (though not definite) to find a wealthy investor.

Ask yourself this John - would Dave Whelan have invested in the Latics if there was no promotion?

#519 Bartholemew Smythe

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 08:08 PM

One would have thought that Salford Nd Bradford were a better long term investment: their new backers would appear to agree

Do you ever answer the question, rather than replying with a question?


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#520 Bartholemew Smythe

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 08:14 PM

The unpalatable fact is that Leigh have been unable to attract any significant level of "investment" or more accurately, donation. I wonder why that is?

You still did n`t answer my question.


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