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Super League 2 leagues of 12


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#521 Just to be clear

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 08:33 PM

Well, since 2008 it is because there is no cast iron guarantee that the investment will get the club in SL within 3 years. The panel could always say "no". Personally I would not invest in a championship club as it stands.

Just to be clear, does promotion and relegation give an investor a cast iron guarantee they could get a club into SL within 3 years?

#522 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 09:14 PM

Do you ever answer the question, rather than replying with a question?

It wasn't a question
Hth
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#523 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 09:25 PM

Just to be clear, does promotion and relegation give an investor a cast iron guarantee they could get a club into SL within 3 years?


Perhaps I should have been clearer in what I meant.

What I meant to say was that under P&R, a hypothetical investor who backs a club financially which then wins the chanpionship, will see his/her club guaranteed promotion. The investment could pay off in as little as less than 1 year if he/she takes over a second tier club mid season or less than 2 years if he/she takes over a second tier club

However a under pure licensing, a hypothetical investor who backs a club financially which then wins the chanpionship several times and perhaps wins the NRC several times will not see his/her club guaranteed promotion. In fact if the said club e.g. is close to a SL club, the panel may choose to pick another club who may have got to a final once - or even not pick anyone and instead pick no-one or pick a French club. The investment may never pay off.

Thats why licensing is a load of utter ####!

#524 Bartholemew Smythe

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 09:30 PM

It wasn't a question
Hth

Indeed it was n`t .

 

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#525 JohnM

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 09:37 PM

Well, since 2008 it is because there is no cast iron guarantee that the investment will get the club in SL within 3 years. The panel could always say "no". Personally I would not invest in a championship club as it stands.

With on the pitch results defining the promoted team it will be easier (though not definite) to find a wealthy investor.

Ask yourself this John - would Dave Whelan have invested in the Latics if there was no promotion?


So why has Probiz 'invested ' in Fev when there is no cast iron guarantee of a licence?

#526 JohnM

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 09:38 PM

You still did n`t answer my question.


Why do you ask?

#527 Bartholemew Smythe

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 09:41 PM

Why do you ask?

I wanted to.


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#528 The Parksider

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 06:41 AM

Perhaps I should have been clearer in what I meant.

What I meant to say was that under P&R, a hypothetical investor who backs a club financially which then wins the chanpionship, will see his/her club guaranteed promotion.

However under pure licensing, a hypothetical investor who backs a club financially which then wins the chanpionship several times and perhaps wins the NRC several times will not see his/her club guaranteed promotion.

You could not be clearer.

But your assumption that a return to P & R will bring in "investors" is yet to be proven, maybe we can look back to the P & R years of 1996 to 2006?

Did we find second division clubs being picked up and heavily invested in over those years.

I suspect what is attractive to the big investors is clubs with the potential to be Superleague clubs year on year.

I'd guess your best argument here is Koukash picked up what is a relatively small club that at times has been no bigger than Leigh - albeit in a big place.

In the pre 1996 days many clubs used to get "investors" who put a few quid in and rode up the league, today the level of investment needed to do that is far far greater.

That's why heavy investors did NOT pick up big clubs already in SL like Wakefield and Bradford which perhaps defeats your argument.

#529 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 08:19 AM

Indeed it was n`t .

 

Wap

bamaloobopalopbamboom


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#530 The Parksider

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 01:01 PM

Since 2008 there is no cast iron guarantee that investment will get the club in SL within 3 years. The panel could always say "no". Personally I would not invest in a championship club as it stands.With on the pitch results defining the promoted team it will be easier (though not definite) to find a wealthy investor.

Ask yourself this John - would Dave Whelan have invested in the Latics if there was no promotion?

As john says Nahaboo is investing in Featherstone under a licensing system
Mr. Abbot is investing in Halifax under a licensing system
Mr. Johnson invested in Barrow under a licensing system
Mr. O'Connor invested in Widnes under a licensing system
No reason to think Mr. Hudgell would not have invested in HKR under licensing

Whilst I appreciate on the whole an investor generally wants a Superleague club the record is clear that even during licensing......

Bradford have been available to a rich investor and not got one.
Wakefield have been available to a rich investor and not got one.
Crusaders were available to a rich investor and didn't get one and folded
Castleford are now available to a new rich investor and haven't got one
Widnes are available to new investment and not got that yet
London could be bought off Hughes but no sign of that
HKR are available but nobody is interested although Mr. Larvin did take some interest.

During the ten years of P & R, when you would have thought that rich investors would have picked up championship clubs because it only would take one good season to get in SL....

No rich investors picked up Dewsbury, Batley, Keighley, York, Swinton, Whitehaven, Rochdale and Doncaster.

In the P & R years there were ready made Superleague clubs that could have ben bought by rich investors who included.....

Oldham, Workington, Gatehead, Paris & sheffield.....

So in terms of evidence that the lack of P & R is putting rich people off investing in clubs is I would suggest non existent?

#531 Terry Mullaney

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 01:20 PM

Just changing direction a little, can I ask what people see as complicated about the proposed 2x12, 3x8 formula? It seems very straightforward to me. Compared to the play off system it's a doddle surely and provides season long, meaningful games for all clubs. I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer but I'm really surprised that so many find the proposal difficult to understand.

Edited by Terry Mullaney, 16 May 2013 - 01:22 PM.

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#532 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 01:35 PM

Just changing direction a little, can I ask what people see as complicated about the proposed 2x12, 3x8 formula? It seems very straightforward to me. Compared to the play off system it's a doddle surely and provides season long, meaningful games for all clubs. I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer but I'm really surprised that so many find the proposal difficult to understand.


I think the idea of the split is very simple.

What people aren't quote sure of yet is the play-off systems that will go with it.

People mentioned the removable of the NRC. Could the third tier after the split not play for this instead?
SL1 & SL2 splits into
SL, Championship & Northern Rail Cup.
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#533 Dave T

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 01:45 PM

I think the idea of the split is very simple.

What people aren't quote sure of yet is the play-off systems that will go with it.

People mentioned the removable of the NRC. Could the third tier after the split not play for this instead?
SL1 & SL2 splits into
SL, Championship & Northern Rail Cup.

This is a good suggestion actually! Just did a little 'like' thing in the bottom right - is that new?



#534 Terry Mullaney

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 02:09 PM

I think the idea of the split is very simple.
What people aren't quote sure of yet is the play-off systems that will go with it.
People mentioned the removable of the NRC. Could the third tier after the split not play for this instead?
SL1 & SL2 splits into
SL, Championship & Northern Rail Cup.

This seems an interesting idea but how would you envisage the movement between the NRC group and Championship working out?
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#535 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 02:32 PM


This is a good suggestion actually! Just did a little 'like' thing in the bottom right - is that new?


Just noticed you'd done that in my notifications but can't see on my iphone on the actual post itself. There's a tick thingy in the corner of everyone's posts now.
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#536 JohnM

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 02:35 PM

Perhaps the word benefactor should be used in place of the the word investor?

#537 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 02:38 PM

This seems an interesting idea but how would you envisage the movement between the NRC group and Championship working out?

There wouldn't be movement between the two.
SL1/2 splits to SL/Ch/NRC at midseason then back to SL1/2 for the start of the season after (hence the middle tier playing for P&R).
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#538 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 03:40 PM

Personally, I'm still in favour of trying to find a system that gives us the benefits of both franchising/licensing and P&R.

I think there are good positive arguments from both sides and we should look to adopt everything to make everyone happy rather than b*tch about what needs are the most important. I think they're both important personally.

One proposal I'd suggest (but wouldn't work right now due to the lack of expansion clubs) would be:

15 club Super League split into 3 groups of 5.
West, East and Europa.

Europa group is a protected group (benefits of licensing for expansion). Clubs I'd have in this are:
London
Catalans
Toulouse
One other expansion club (not sure who yet, which is why I don't think it's ready; either a third French club or Welsh)
Championship winners (bare with me on this)...

The other 10 clubs are split into West and East.

Bottom of these two groups play off in a relegation final (guaranteeing that Wakey vs Cas last day build up).

The promoted team goes into the Europa group for one season (giving them one season of protection to allow them to build, another benefit of licensing system).
The season after, they join the rest in the other group (replacing the relegated team and being replaced by the next promoted team).

Top two from each contest the play-offs.

Fixtures:
Play everyone in your group three times (12 games).
Everyone else once (10 games).
(Not sure about the extra 5 fixtures. Would have been easier if it were 4 groups of 5!)

Everybody wins then.
Expansion clubs are protected.
Newly promoted clubs get some protection.
Established clubs are under P&R regulations.
There will always be a last minute relegation match.
It's easily adaptable if you want to add more clubs (ie. if the French were to get to five clubs they could have their own group).

It's a little complicated, but I don't exactly understand how the NFL works yet I hear it's pretty successful! Simple systems only work for well established sports IMO. There is no simple system that will help a developing expanding professional sport grow. I'm pretty sure there's a graphic you could put on a poster that would explain it pretty easily.
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#539 bobbruce

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 05:59 PM

Just changing direction a little, can I ask what people see as complicated about the proposed 2x12, 3x8 formula? It seems very straightforward to me. Compared to the play off system it's a doddle surely and provides season long, meaningful games for all clubs. I'm not the sharpest knife in the drawer but I'm really surprised that so many find the proposal difficult to understand.


What find hard to understand is how they think teams getting £180,000 can compete over half a season with teams getting £1.2m.

#540 Terry Mullaney

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 06:04 PM

What find hard to understand is how they think teams getting £180,000 can compete over half a season with teams getting £1.2m.


Yes, I agree with that and arrangement for cap limits too. I think that's all being looked at
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