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Super League 2 leagues of 12


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#541 bobbruce

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 06:09 PM

Yes, I agree with that and arrangement for cap limits too. I think that's all being looked at


I just think if we are going to go down the route of SL2 then we need to commit to it. I'd say the minimum funding required to allow SL2 to go full time would be £500,000.

#542 bewareshadows

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 06:31 PM

I'm  a fan of the RL taking on a similar system to the NFL, but I just don't think we have the numbers in terms of top flight clubs to do it or the money to spread between them.

 

Given the question over how will clubs on less money compete.  Don't forget that points are carried forwards.   So it's a few weeks late, but given the current standings.

 

The bottom clubs SL1 that are dropped into the middle division would be going in with a points tally of about 5 - 7.

 

The top clubs from SL2 would go in with about 19 - 15 points.   

 

So when the league re-emarge. The SL2 teams effectively have a head start.  Now you can say that the SL teams will win every match, but personally I doubt it. But  the SL2 teams will also play each other, so they can take points off each other. The likes of featherstone and Halifax (taking current standings), will add to their tally.  There is only a maximum of 28 points to be gained from the divison games, so it's actually going to be harder for SL clubs to top the league and therefore get the best draw in the playoffs.

 

It's not a perfect system, but no system is..   I'd be interested to see how it goes.  Also the increase in crowds for those top 4 SL2 teams may mean that over time there income will go up allowing them to pay more to players, therefore closing the gap between SL1 bottom teams and SL2 top teams.  I think this is one of the aims to increase the number of players FT and increase the competitiveness of the teams.

 

I certainly think there is no harm in giving a go over 3 seasons.  The worst case senario is that it does not work and we can always revert to a more traditional league system.  Nothing is set in stone, but I do think the option 3 poses some interesting qualities, also with a good sales team, there should be oppertunities to increase TV revenue whether from 1 or multiple providers.


Edited by bewareshadows, 16 May 2013 - 06:33 PM.

Super League the only place in the world where people still believe that less competitors and a closed market to new competition will improve the quality of the product.

Even the Chinese and the Cubans gave up on these marxist principles years ago.


SL with a reduced number of competitors and a closed market = North Korea.

#543 Railway End

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 06:56 PM

I just think if we are going to go down the route of SL2 then we need to commit to it. I'd say the minimum funding required to allow SL2 to go full time would be £500,000.

 

 

Maybe I'm being too simplistic here, but I find it hard to understand why at the moment 14 teams get central funding of £1.2m a year and the other 23 members of the RFL get a peanuts.  Does the RFL not have a duty to look after all its member clubs?

 

I'd like to see the leagues split 12,12,13.  SL continue to get £1.2m, Championship get say £600k and Championship 1 £300k.  All this discussion about the league structure just strikes me as shuffling the deck chairs on the Titanic.  Unless the RFL can generate more income through sponsorship, TV deals and meaningful representative football then the current disparity between the haves and have nots will not change.

 

The bottom line is that we have 5 or 6 good quality clubs in Super League with the remainder being there on the back of being in the right place at the right time.  In my opinion the bottom half of SL are doing nothing that the top Championship clubs couldn't do with £1.2m in the back pocket.

 

Wouldn't it be interesting to see which clubs would rise to the elite division over a 5 year period if P&R was re-introduced, everyone had the same salary cap and everybody was given the same central funding from Red Hall


"Rugby League is rugby in the simplest form in the sense that it's about great defence, great tackling technique, good handling, good passing, catching and great kicking."

 

 Stuart Lancaster - England Rugby Union Head Coach - October 2013


#544 The Parksider

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 08:39 PM

Maybe I'm being too simplistic here, but I find it hard to understand why at the moment 14 teams get central funding of £1.2m a year and the other 23 members of the RFL get a peanuts.

The funding is essentially SKY money they pay to the RFL for a professional elite Superleague hence it gets all the money so it can run professionally.

#545 The Parksider

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 08:44 PM

What find hard to understand is how they think teams getting £180,000 can compete over half a season with teams getting £1.2m.

I don't think they think this, it's just that SKY apparently won't allow any more. The sum equates to the money saved dropping two clubs from SL thus the remaining 12 don't lose any funding. After all the SKY money is for an elite league to fulfill the SKY contract.

If failing SL clubs and Championship clubs want to go muck about in a cheaper league mid season then that's OK as long as there's an elite to service the SKY contract.

I suspect the "competing" element will be allowing the championship club sugar daddies to spend right up to Superleague cap. Erm.... if they have the money and are serious....

Edited by The Parksider, 16 May 2013 - 08:45 PM.


#546 The Parksider

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 08:51 PM

I just think if we are going to go down the route of SL2 then we need to commit to it. I'd say the minimum funding required to allow SL2 to go full time would be £500,000.

They'll never take money off the Superleague clubs to fund second tier. The elite league has to go on being fully funded as I understand it. The format seems to be one where we maintain an elite to service the SKY contract, but release the SL also rans mid season from their misery and give the SL wannabees a chance to knock them off their perch. These seem to be the two facets of the proposal.

What will be interesting is how many middle 8 games SKY show. My guess it will not be too many, but certainly any key match where a CC club has a chance to knock off a failing SL club.

Bring it on...

#547 jpmc

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 09:10 PM

They'll never take money off the Superleague clubs to fund second tier. The elite league has to go on being fully funded as I understand it. The format seems to be one where we maintain an elite to service the SKY contract, but release the SL also rans mid season from their misery and give the SL wannabees a chance to knock them off their perch. These seem to be the two facets of the proposal.

What will be interesting is how many middle 8 games SKY show. My guess it will not be too many, but certainly any key match where a CC club has a chance to knock off a failing SL club.

Bring it on...

Do you not think the middle 8 games will be on prem sport

#548 The Parksider

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 09:29 PM

Do you not think the middle 8 games will be on prem sport

I dunno, it would be good if they were they'll be very interesting fixtures.

#549 Pottsy

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 10:41 PM

Do you not think the middle 8 games will be on prem sport


How could they be if they're (supposedly) 'Super' League. They'd be subject to the same TV deal.

One by product of this is that you'd probably see far less of all clubs outside the big eight on telly. Within no time we'd all being looking back wistfully at the days when Barrow, Fev etc could claim top billing on Premier Sport on a Thursday night.

#550 bewareshadows

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 10:47 PM

I think the middle 8 games will be the most interesting.  I would not expect it in season 1, but come the 2nd and 3rd seasons. I would expect a leveling of the playing field. It will not be even, but we know not all SL clubs spend the cap. So the difference is not as wide as we think.

 

If anyone has the figures it maybe more interesting to see the gap. But if they are not spending the cap and SL2 clubs can generate extra cash to play at say a £0.5 million cap, then you can see a closing of the gap.  It would only take a featherstone to beat a Cas and a Wakey to show increased interest and they have shown they  can do it with current funding, or run them close.  So with increased funding and crowds who is to say.

 

The bottom 8 will get hardly any air time, the top 8 are basically safe and playing for playoff places so the middle 8 may generate the majority of TV interest come the middle of the season, until the playoffs start.


Super League the only place in the world where people still believe that less competitors and a closed market to new competition will improve the quality of the product.

Even the Chinese and the Cubans gave up on these marxist principles years ago.


SL with a reduced number of competitors and a closed market = North Korea.

#551 bewareshadows

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 10:52 PM

How could they be if they're (supposedly) 'Super' League. They'd be subject to the same TV deal.

One by product of this is that you'd probably see far less of all clubs outside the big eight on telly. Within no time we'd all being looking back wistfully at the days when Barrow, Fev etc could claim top billing on Premier Sport on a Thursday night.

 

That's does not have to be the case, just because it's called SL,  the Premier league are all in the same league but the product is packaged out so other companies can compete.

 

It just depends on having more than SKY interested in purchasing.

 

You could easily come up with A and B packages

 

A Package

 

First 11 rounds 2 SL games

Split divisions

First pick of division 1 game

Second pick of division 2 game

First pick playoff games

 

B package

 

First 11 rounds 1 SL game, but first pick and a SL2 game

 

Split divisions

Second pick of division 1 game

First pick of division 2 game

2nd pick playoff games

 

Challenge cup sold seperately but in a more compressed event, to be fitted in between the splitting of leagues into 3 divisions.

 

Job done


Edited by bewareshadows, 16 May 2013 - 10:53 PM.

Super League the only place in the world where people still believe that less competitors and a closed market to new competition will improve the quality of the product.

Even the Chinese and the Cubans gave up on these marxist principles years ago.


SL with a reduced number of competitors and a closed market = North Korea.

#552 Pottsy

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 10:52 PM

I think the middle 8 games will be the most interesting. I would not expect it in season 1, but come the 2nd and 3rd seasons. I would expect a leveling of the playing field. It will not be even, but we know not all SL clubs spend the cap. So the difference is not as wide as we think.

If anyone has the figures it maybe more interesting to see the gap. But if they are not spending the cap and SL2 clubs can generate extra cash to play at say a £0.5 million cap, then you can see a closing of the gap. It would only take a featherstone to beat a Cas and a Wakey to show increased interest and they have shown they can do it with current funding, or run them close. So with increased funding and crowds who is to say.

The bottom 8 will get hardly any air time, the top 8 are basically safe and playing for playoff places so the middle 8 may generate the majority of TV interest come the middle of the season, until the playoffs start.


Personally, I'm most excited about the bottom eight. There may not be anything to actually play for but the thrill of seeing which club grabs the pennant will be amazing.

#553 Pottsy

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Posted 16 May 2013 - 10:57 PM

That's does not have to be the case, just because it's called SL, the Premier league are all in the same league but the product is packaged out so other companies can compete.

It just depends on having more than SKY interested in purchasing.

You could easily come up with A and B packages

A Package

First 11 rounds 2 SL games
Split divisions
First pick of division 1 game
Second pick of division 2 game
First pick playoff games

B package

First 11 rounds 1 SL game, but first pick and a SL2 game

Split divisions
Second pick of division 1 game
First pick of division 2 game
2nd pick playoff games

Challenge cup sold seperately but in a more compressed event, to be fitted in between the splitting of leagues into 3 divisions.

Job done


Good point well made. There'll be a queue of broadcasters and sponsors falling over themselves to get behind the 'Super' League middle eight.

The battle to see who gets to play in the top division for a bit of the next season will really capture the nation's imagination.

As previously stated, I'm most excited about the bottom eight. Perhaps if Sky get the rights to the top eight and Premier get the rights to the middle eight we could sell the rights to the bottom eight onto Dave, DMax or maybe even Men & Motors.


Is Men & Motors still on?

#554 The Parksider

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 06:43 AM

It just depends on having more than SKY interested in purchasing.
 
You could easily come up with A and B packages
 
A Package
 
B package

SKY's negotiator could even more easily say "I'll give you £90M for BOTH packages for five years - take it or leave it".

Edited by The Parksider, 17 May 2013 - 06:43 AM.


#555 The Parksider

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 06:57 AM

I think the middle 8 games will be the most interesting.  I would not expect it in season 1, but come the 2nd and 3rd seasons. I would expect a leveling of the playing field. It will not be even, but we know not all SL clubs spend the cap. So the difference is not as wide as we think.
 
If anyone has the figures it maybe more interesting to see the gap. But if they are not spending the cap and SL2 clubs can generate extra cash to play at say a £0.5 million cap, then you can see a closing of the gap.  It would only take a featherstone to beat a Cas and a Wakey to show increased interest and they have shown they  can do it with current funding, or run them close.  So with increased funding and crowds who is to say.

Castleford had 5,000 fans in the second tier. Sheffield have 1,000. Leigh are skint surviving on supporters association handouts, Mr. Hughes can pull half a million out of the bag a year himself as can Mr. O'Connor.
Featherstone and halifax claim they have rich men ready to pay bigger wages.

The gap will merely START at £1,020,000 that being the difference in the SKY funding between SL and CC clubs.

What will count is not crowds, but the ambitions of the chairmen.

With respect there's too much of an assumption that clubs will be falling over themselves to get in Superleague. Batley for instance have always said they don't want it, Leigh if they suddenly got it would not be able to hack it financially, handed £1.2M would they go and buy a professional squad (from where??)or would they just use it to pay off their debts?

Will Nahaboo and Abbot meet the idea they will fund their clubs to SL level? Will O'Connor. Hudgell and Fulton pull out of RL??

What happens on the pitch as in all pro sport will be decided by the Chairmen and their accountants.

IMHO of course but on logic reasoning and past events...

Edited by The Parksider, 17 May 2013 - 06:59 AM.


#556 DeadShotKeen

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 07:55 AM

Personally, I'm still in favour of trying to find a system that gives us the benefits of both franchising/licensing and P&R.

There isn't one. If there was we wouldn't be having this debate. Pick your poison.

I don't exactly understand how the NFL works yet I hear it's pretty successful!

It isn't very complicated. Maybe have a read up on it?

This is ultimately the problem with our insular sport fan base. We assume our structures are the best because they've been around forever and "they're ours". If you don't have an understanding of how other sports structure themselves then with respect you're not really equipped to make a serious, well-balanced contribution to the debate. Take your blinkers off and have a look around at what works in other countries.

Your system was a holy mess, btw. If you're drawing up a sport structure that's hugely complicated and fussy then you're clearly not going to attract the average floating punter. The best sporting leagues (like NRL) know how to keep things simple.

Edited by DeadShotKeen, 17 May 2013 - 11:35 AM.


#557 The Parksider

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 08:36 AM

Your system was a holy mess, btw. If you're drawing up a sport structure that's hugely complicated and fussy then you're clearly not going to attract the average floating punter. The best sporting leagues (like NRL) know how to keep things simple.

They also know how adequate funding prevents the league unravelling.

For Superleague, simplicity would be take out the clubs on a downward spiral, losing money and not competing and put in clubs who have the money to compete and build their businesses.

Pick your clubs in terms of who fulfill these criteria but the number looks to be around 12 at the moment.

Edited by The Parksider, 17 May 2013 - 08:37 AM.


#558 bewareshadows

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 03:10 PM

I would never dream of forcing clubs into SL and if a club did not want it, I have no problem with that.  But I do think that the system is helpful in that it allows those who want to, to give it a go and if it does not work the drop does not have to be financial suicide.  It just feels like a system that allows clubs to play at the level they are comfortable with without arbitrarily putting a barrier in place. 


Super League the only place in the world where people still believe that less competitors and a closed market to new competition will improve the quality of the product.

Even the Chinese and the Cubans gave up on these marxist principles years ago.


SL with a reduced number of competitors and a closed market = North Korea.

#559 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 03:52 PM

There isn't one. If there was we wouldn't be having this debate. Pick your poison.It isn't very complicated. Maybe have a read up on it?

Isn't there? Or is there one that just hasn't been discovered yet?

This is ultimately the problem with our insular sport fan base. We assume our structures are the best because they've been around forever and "they're ours". If you don't have an understanding of how other sports structure themselves then with respect you're not really equipped to make a serious, well-balanced contribution to the debate. Take your blinkers off and have a look around at what works in other countries.

That's not really with respect though, is it? I don't understand how the NFL works, so therefore I'm insular? It's one system out of many around the world that I have knowledge of.

I think I'm perfectly equipped to contribute to the debate thank you very much. With respect.

Your system was a holy mess, btw. If you're drawing up a sport structure that's hugely complicated and fussy then you're clearly not going to attract the average floating punter. The best sporting leagues (like NRL) know how to keep things simple.

Champions League?
Heineken Cup?
Hardly simple competitions are they.

I'm sorry, but I just can't agree that all the best sports leagues in the world keep it simple. Only the sports leagues with mega popularity throughout their territory or are small enough to cover them in one league only are in a position to keep it simple. We are not.
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#560 Wellsy4HullFC

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 04:53 PM

It isn't very complicated. Maybe have a read up on it?

By the way, if you can explain it and make it sound, I'll believe you.
I've read up on it in the past. I get it. I just couldn't explain it without looking at it. It's far from simple.
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