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Super League 2 leagues of 12


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#121 Mumby Magic

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 05:43 AM

Woo! Name-check... not sure why though!

Just so you don't get upset. Got to look after you now that you are gradually moving up the RL ranks ala Gledhill. One week list TRL SL fixtures, next week the world!

Edited by Mumby Magic, 04 May 2013 - 05:43 AM.

Lilly, Jacob and Isaac, what my life is about. Although our route through life is not how it should be, I am a blessed man.


#122 The Parksider

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 07:08 AM

I say this every time, but that was done for several years about ten years back and *everyone* hated it.

I think the current franchising system is fine TBH. I'd leave it exactly as it is, but go back to the old top 5 play off.

Didn't your lot get reprieved from relegation every year because clubs didn't meet minimum standards.

The incessant mantra of P & R "with minimum standards" is a pretty thoughtless thing. In reality you end up with a championship full of clubs who don't meet minimum standards so nobody can be promoted.

#123 gingerjon

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 08:56 AM

I say this every time, but that was done for several years about ten years back and *everyone* hated it.

Yeah, but this'll be different.
Cheer up, RL is actually rather good
- Severus, July 2012

#124 JohnM

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 09:08 AM

Just to clarify on what is being proposed.

 

The idea, as far as I understand it, is that the two bottom teams will be relegated from Super League at the end of 2014, regardless of which teams they will be. There could even be three teams relegated if the clubs decide they want Toulouse in the competition in 2015 with a TV deal possibly on the table from BeIn Sport.

 

There will then be two divisions of 12 each, which will play each other once (eleven games) in the first half of the season.

 

In the second half of the season, those clubs will split into three divisions of eight teams, depending on finishing places in the first half of the season. The bottom four Super League clubs will be in with the top four Championship clubs (which may include the two SL clubs relegated the previous season). Those teams will play each other at home and away (14 games) in the second half of the season.

 

The top four clubs in the second tier, at the end of that season, will then return to Super League for 2016.

 

If that is what it turns out to be then god help us all!   Totally bonkers!!  



#125 Steve May

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 09:46 AM

Didn't your lot get reprieved from relegation every year because clubs didn't meet minimum standards.

Not quite. They basically got relegated every year, then got a last minute reprieve. There was never any opportunity to build the club.

It was a shambles. Contrary to popular belief, did Huddersfield no good whatsoever.

And the clubs below never knew what to aim for or what to expect and some of them just thought they could ignore the rule because the RFL would give in.

An utter shambles.

I think it works well in the football pyramid, but the football governing bodies are much stronger and have long term faith in their league structures.

That's me.  I'm done.


#126 Larry the Leit

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 09:49 AM

Just to clarify on what is being proposed.

 

The idea, as far as I understand it, is that the two bottom teams will be relegated from Super League at the end of 2014, regardless of which teams they will be. There could even be three teams relegated if the clubs decide they want Toulouse in the competition in 2015 with a TV deal possibly on the table from BeIn Sport.

 

There will then be two divisions of 12 each, which will play each other once (eleven games) in the first half of the season.

 

In the second half of the season, those clubs will split into three divisions of eight teams, depending on finishing places in the first half of the season. The bottom four Super League clubs will be in with the top four Championship clubs (which may include the two SL clubs relegated the previous season). Those teams will play each other at home and away (14 games) in the second half of the season.

 

The top four clubs in the second tier, at the end of that season, will then return to Super League for 2016.

 

Just to be clear, did you know this before it came from an official source?

 

I wholeheartedly agree with your view later in this thread by the way.

 

 

It seems to me like The Halifax Courier may have broken a press embargo on this, or even had it leaked to them and out of annoyance of not being fed the story broke it anyway.



#127 Pottsy

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 11:29 AM

Perhaps it's a case of wishful thinking (and leaking!) from someone at the Halifax club

#128 The Parksider

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 12:04 PM

(a) The two bottom teams will be relegated from Super League A. There will then be two divisions of 12 each, which will play each other once (eleven games) in the first half of the season.
 
In the second half of the season, those clubs will split into three divisions of eight teams B. depending on finishing places in the first half of the season. The bottom four Super League clubs will be in with the top four Championship clubs (which may include the two SL clubs relegated the previous season). Those teams will play each other at home and away (14 games) in the second half of the season.
 
The top four clubs in the second tier, at the end of that season, will then return to Super League C.

So roughly based on last years and this years performances

A. Widnes and Castleford down last year.

B. HKR, Wakefield, London and Salford would join Halifax, Fev, Widnes and Cas in Div 2. for the home and away games to determine four promoted clubs.

C. Would be dependent (beyond the bounce of the ball on the field of play) on who the strongest clubs would be

If there were no financial collapses beyond what we have now it's likely it'd be Wakefield, Widnes, Salford and London, who beat Fev in the cup this season.

The idea for me would most likely see Cas and HKR go anyway, and maybe Fev up maybe not?

So it looks like the idea would be a total contrivance to really not change much at all in terms of the final outcome.

Edited by The Parksider, 04 May 2013 - 01:22 PM.


#129 OMEGA

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 12:54 PM

If you look at the Premier League promoted teams as an example you will see that it sometimes takes a team 2, 3 or even 4 attempts at becoming a stable PL club. They get promoted and learn lessons, get demoted and consolidate, get promoted again and are more competitive, learn and become more savvy yet once again get demoted, they consolidate and get promoted and often stay up because they've learned the lessons, gained the necessary experience, systematically put the required resources in place and have avoided being forced into meltdown. They do this because they understand from the outset that the process of bridging the gap from Championship to Premier League will not be achieved in one year. Alongside the League they plan for the probability/possibility that it might be a 4 or 6 year journey, I even think that their fans are realistic enough to know that they might suffer a relegation or 2 before they become a stable PL club.

Leave the SL at 14 clubs, promote the GF winning Championship team and give them 1 season immunity from relegation. That means the other 13 SL clubs know from the outset that 13th is a relegation spot or 14th if the newly promoted team don't finish bottom.

This would allow the promoted club to attract players on a 2 year contract, significantly improving their chances of attracting better players. They would be guaranteed a minimum of 2 years money allowing some investment into their infrastructure and they would be allowed to learn from their experiences of the first season. Equally their team would have time to get to know each other and their results would not be skewed by losses brought about by unfamiliarity. The coach would have a second preseason to make tweaks and changes to his squad and develop his team to be more competitive, see Widnes for an example.

The RFL should have a full time administrational staff on their payroll that could supplement the staff of a promoted club thereby alleviating the burden of sourcing and employing people, inexperienced in many cases, to fill the required roles at short notice following promotion.

If the club become self sustaining then the RFL staff can be systematicaly replaced by the clubs own employees who could be trained alongside the RFL staff so that they can handle the job.

If the club doesn't survive and are relegated again they would not have the cost of making staff redundant and no one would lse their employment as the RFL staff would then move to the newly promoted team. This would help to prevent the financial fallout experienced by Workington, Leigh, Oldham, Halifax etc..

The RFL could even offer some form of parachute payment which would be strictly administered so as to ensure that the money did not go towards anything that gave the demoted team a playing advantage over the other Championship clubs.

If done well and correctly you could have 3 or 4 Championship clubs involved at some stage of this process at the same time. These clubs would only become stronger the longer they were within this structure as they would be gaining administrational experience and adding new or better quality resources to their structure.

#130 The Parksider

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 01:25 PM

If done well and correctly you could have 3 or 4 Championship clubs involved at some stage of this process at the same time. These clubs would only become stronger the longer they were within this structure as they would be gaining administrational experience and adding new or better quality resources to their structure.

Well thought out IMHO but which 3 or 4 championship clubs??

#131 South Wakefield Sharks

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 01:26 PM

The biggest problem is the huge (in RL terms) funding gap between SL and Championship. It's full-time to part-time.

If central funding is split evenly between the 24 clubs in the new proposal and there is an even salary cap, then the new proposal could work. It gives the top championship clubs a realistic bridge between part-time and full-time and gives them a realisitc shot at the big boys.

Under the new proposal you'd get clubs like Wakey & Cas looking to get in the top 8 to stay with the big boys. If that doesn't work, then they get to be in a league with Fev, Sheffield etc aiming to be in the top half to get a crack at the big boys next year.

For clubs like Fev, Sheffield etc, they aim to be in their top 4 and then have a crack at the likes of Wakey & Cas with the prize of a go against the big boys the following year.

For the top clubs like Wigan & Leeds, they can't mess about too much in the first 11 games in case they don't make the 8. After that, they get intense games week in week out.

This proposal could be made to work with a bit of thought, but the biggest problem as always is that the amount of central money (ie TV money) isn't enough to go round, and most clubs seem unable to generate much other income.

Edited by South Wakefield Sharks, 04 May 2013 - 01:27 PM.


#132 keighley

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 01:32 PM

If you look at the Premier League promoted teams as an example you will see that it sometimes takes a team 2, 3 or even 4 attempts at becoming a stable PL club. They get promoted and learn lessons, get demoted and consolidate, get promoted again and are more competitive, learn and become more savvy yet once again get demoted, they consolidate and get promoted and often stay up because they've learned the lessons, gained the necessary experience, systematically put the required resources in place and have avoided being forced into meltdown. They do this because they understand from the outset that the process of bridging the gap from Championship to Premier League will not be achieved in one year. Alongside the League they plan for the probability/possibility that it might be a 4 or 6 year journey, I even think that their fans are realistic enough to know that they might suffer a relegation or 2 before they become a stable PL club.

Leave the SL at 14 clubs, promote the GF winning Championship team and give them 1 season immunity from relegation. That means the other 13 SL clubs know from the outset that 13th is a relegation spot or 14th if the newly promoted team don't finish bottom.

This would allow the promoted club to attract players on a 2 year contract, significantly improving their chances of attracting better players. They would be guaranteed a minimum of 2 years money allowing some investment into their infrastructure and they would be allowed to learn from their experiences of the first season. Equally their team would have time to get to know each other and their results would not be skewed by losses brought about by unfamiliarity. The coach would have a second preseason to make tweaks and changes to his squad and develop his team to be more competitive, see Widnes for an example.

The RFL should have a full time administrational staff on their payroll that could supplement the staff of a promoted club thereby alleviating the burden of sourcing and employing people, inexperienced in many cases, to fill the required roles at short notice following promotion.

If the club become self sustaining then the RFL staff can be systematicaly replaced by the clubs own employees who could be trained alongside the RFL staff so that they can handle the job.

If the club doesn't survive and are relegated again they would not have the cost of making staff redundant and no one would lse their employment as the RFL staff would then move to the newly promoted team. This would help to prevent the financial fallout experienced by Workington, Leigh, Oldham, Halifax etc..

The RFL could even offer some form of parachute payment which would be strictly administered so as to ensure that the money did not go towards anything that gave the demoted team a playing advantage over the other Championship clubs.

If done well and correctly you could have 3 or 4 Championship clubs involved at some stage of this process at the same time. These clubs would only become stronger the longer they were within this structure as they would be gaining administrational experience and adding new or better quality resources to their structure.

 

That's a lot more sensible than this SPL/RFL Heath Robinson proposal that the Halifax Courier appear to have got wind of.

 

The position of the Catalans or maybe Toulouse would have to be worked out as to where they would go if ending up in a relegation spot.



#133 OMEGA

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 02:16 PM

Well thought out IMHO but which 3 or 4 championship clubs??

The 3/4 clubs wouldnt be selected by anybody they'd be the teams that won their way to the top of the Championship and were either in SL trying to stay up or were just relegated and in a period of consolidation while mounting a bid for promotion.

Eg
SUPERLEAGUE BOTTOM
11 London - playing meaningfully games to avoid being relegated, everything to play for
12 Widnes - playing meaningfully games to avoid being relegated, everything to play for
13 Featherstone - 2nd year as a SL club fighting to finish above 13th & avoid relegation, everything to play for
14 Halifax - in their 1st year as a SL club

CHAMPIONSHIP TOP
1 Castleford - 1st year in the Championship after relegation, now building towards promotion
2 Salford - 2nd year in the Championship after being demoted when Featherstone won promotion
3 Leigh - Building toward a genuine chance of promotion, everything to play for
4 Sheffield - Building toward a genuine chance of promotion, everything to play for

The point is that a 1 year protection against relegation alongside financial and administrational aid means that promotion isn't a poisoned challace and relegation need not be a death knell for a club.

Edited by OMEGA, 04 May 2013 - 02:20 PM.


#134 Methven Hornet

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 08:56 PM

Not quite. They basically got relegated every year, then got a last minute reprieve. There was never any opportunity to build the club.

It was a shambles. Contrary to popular belief, did Huddersfield no good whatsoever.

And the clubs below never knew what to aim for or what to expect and some of them just thought they could ignore the rule because the RFL would give in.

An utter shambles.

I think it works well in the football pyramid, but the football governing bodies are much stronger and have long term faith in their league structures.

 

The thing to bear in mind with football is that for the first 91 years movement between the tiers was by election, not by promotion and relegation based upon one seasons results. That election process took into account things like long-term performance, financial strength, attendances and geographic location. This enabled the sport to expand from its strongholds in the north and midlands to encompass the whole of England. It was only when there was a comprehensive spread of clubs throughout the country that the FA could introduce a pyramid based upon p&r.

 

Rugby league has not used that period as wisely and is now playing catch-up in a sense. Just this season it has elected three clubs on the basis of their potential to spread the game to new regions. Had it added three clubs on playing strength alone it would have gone to the top of the northern community game for clubs.

Football has a massive presence, and hundreds of club striving to be the best they can creates a sort of upward pressure. That pressure leads to small gaps in standards between the leagues enabling smooth transitions. We've got clubs in the second tier that have never been subject to that pressure. They are one step away from the elite as a result of history and geography.. When they are there after competing against 500+ other clubs then they might have a case for automatic promotion.
 


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#135 RSN

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 09:22 PM

So on the basis of the proposal Martyn suggested. Let's say Tolouse come in which means 3 Super League clubs are relegated. That leaves 9 places out 14 Championship clubs to make up the bottom 12.

How do you decide the 9 clubs who make up the bottom 12?

#136 Doghead

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Posted 04 May 2013 - 10:07 PM

http://www.superleag...w-process/27667

#137 The Parksider

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 12:08 AM

So on the basis of the proposal Martyn suggested. Let's say Tolouse come in which means 3 Super League clubs are relegated. That leaves 9 places out 14 Championship clubs to make up the bottom 12.

How do you decide the 9 clubs who make up the bottom 12?

From the league table.

As it stands now

Halifax
Featherstone
Sheffield
Batley
Leigh
Whitehaven
Hunslet
York
Dewsbury

And so it comes to pass this suggestion is a competition that contains both Leeds, a club supported by 15,000 fans and the most successful club of modern times, AND their "A" team.

Hopefully SKY will distribute the money fairly and cut £500K off Leeds TV cash, and Leeds "A" can be awarded £700,000 so they can erm compete evenly

Anyway it will be one suggestion out of a series of suggestions the clubs will vote on. Look forward to Blackpool Hawk getting an equal vote with Gary Hetherington.

#138 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 08:28 AM

I like this new proposal far more than the meaningless guff we have now.

It would mean clubs have to thrash it out for every game and would place greater importance on the early season. It also gives the second tier clubs hope.

My only concern is where the current third tier gits in. Could the sane system not also flow down further?

#139 keighley

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 09:10 AM

From the league table.

As it stands now

Halifax
Featherstone
Sheffield
Batley
Leigh
Whitehaven
Hunslet
York
Dewsbury

And so it comes to pass this suggestion is a competition that contains both Leeds, a club supported by 15,000 fans and the most successful club of modern times, AND their "A" team.

Hopefully SKY will distribute the money fairly and cut £500K off Leeds TV cash, and Leeds "A" can be awarded £700,000 so they can erm compete evenly

Anyway it will be one suggestion out of a series of suggestions the clubs will vote on. Look forward to Blackpool Hawk getting an equal vote with Gary Hetherington.

 

Hunslet had better have access to 17 players of their own for the fixture against Leeds. Can;t see Maguire doing a Briers in that one.



#140 kapow

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Posted 05 May 2013 - 09:56 AM

Most of the teams won't have much to play for in the first phase - only those around the dividing marks.

I hate the idea that the fixtures for May onwards won't be available till, well, end of April. And I'll be interested to see how season ticket sales are affected - you just won't know what you're going to get.


Easy

Play the first 11 fixtures from February to April.
Play the Challenge Cup May to June.
Play the remaining 14 fixtures July to September.
Play the playoffs in October.

The only slight issue with this is the Challenge Cup period... It would leave some teams with a long break without a match.




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