Jump to content


League Express

Podcast

Photo
- - - - -

Restructuring


  • Please log in to reply
18 replies to this topic

#1 DavidM

DavidM
  • Coach
  • 5,858 posts

Posted 06 May 2013 - 10:05 AM

If anyone has a doctorate in quantum physics can they please explain the proposed league restructuring that's been proposed ? If ever there was a prime example of people at HQ having to much time on their hands but to few brain cells then that's it . We finally get a good competitive league and they want to rip it up , but we don't matter . Everything is Super League centric - it's all about them and everyone else must tow the line . I hope all the lower clubs fight back . And 4 down next year ? You think DR is a factor next year , wait till next !! It's a complete joke , my heads spinning trying unsuccessfully to work it out . RFL please understand SL isn't rugby league , you wanna sort that out fine but do it in isolation without turning the whole pro sport upside down . The treatment here is worse than the complaint !!

Edited by DavidM, 06 May 2013 - 10:07 AM.


#2 Keith T

Keith T
  • Coach
  • 8,811 posts

Posted 06 May 2013 - 03:01 PM

I have been trying to read up on this new structure and to my mind it is a one sided view and favours the current SL teams that start in the top division in 2015.    At the end of next season 2 teams will drop down from SL in to Championship and 4 teams will drop down from Championship to Championship 1.

 

This will create two top divisions of 12 teams.   Each team in each division will play the other team just once in the first half of the season.   How that is to be set out isn't clear but it could be 5 home games and 5 away games and 1 game at a neutral venue (like Magic weekend) or the other alternative is that some clubs get an extra home game and others get an extra away game.      

 

That would be unfair as would for one team playing the top team away whilst another team plays them at home.    At then end of these 11 games the top 8 teams in the 1st Division would compete against each other home and away.   The bottom 4 of the 1st Division would then join with the top 4 teams from the 2nd Division to form another league of 8 and the other 8 teams would form their own league.    The bottom team in the 3rd group of 8 will drop down to Championship 1 and 1 team will be promoted.

 

When these matches have been completed the top four go forward for the next season to form the 12 team top division .

 

That all sounds very interesting until you start to look more at the detail.    All the top 12 teams will have a salary cap of £1.25 million whilst the others will have a salary cap of £180,000 per season.    The top 12 teams can recruit up to 5 foreign players whilst the others are limited to just 1 foreign player.    The top 12 teams will all be full-time professional players whilst the others will be, in the main, part-time professional players.

 

It is not therefore rocket science to see that the odds are overwhelming loaded in favour of the four teams that come 9th - 12th playing against the top four from the other group of 12.

 

I can not understand any Championship club voting to support this system because I cannot see any benefits at all for our clubs it all seems to favour SL clubs once again.


I remember when .............................

"It is impossible not to feel a twinge of sympathy for Workington Town, the fall guys this season for the Super League's determination to retain it's European dimension, in the shape of Paris. While the French have had every assistance to survive, the importance of having a flagship in a heartland area like West Cumbria has been conveniently forgotten." - Dave Hadfield - Independent 25th August 1996.


#3 DavidM

DavidM
  • Coach
  • 5,858 posts

Posted 06 May 2013 - 03:14 PM

It's all SL centric . They want a change but the ripples affect everyone else . Totally unfair , we've wanted this league for ages , leave us alone and sort yourself out ! Anyway Keith your doctorate in quantum physics was well earned !

#4 Supporter

Supporter
  • Coach
  • 460 posts

Posted 06 May 2013 - 04:22 PM

I understand the basic proposed structure (I think). Top twelve Super League sides forming SL1. SL 2 formed by Toulouse joining the bottom two Super League sides and the top nine Championship sides. This structure to exist for the first half of the season (11 rounds). Then three sub groups of eight formed for the remainder of the season (14 rounds). Each team plays 25 matches in the season. But what happens next year? I understand one up and one down to Championship 1, but will there be one up one down for all three SL Groups? If they now stay as leagues of eight, how many matches are they expected to play in a season? Home and away twice would mean playing 28 matches. Can anyone clarify?

Edited by Supporter, 06 May 2013 - 04:30 PM.


#5 Keith T

Keith T
  • Coach
  • 8,811 posts

Posted 06 May 2013 - 04:27 PM

I understand the basic proposed structure (I think). Top twelve Super League sides forming SL1. SL 2 formed by Toulouse joining the bottom two Super League sides and the top nine Championship sides. This structure to exist for the first half of the season (11 rounds). Then three sub groups of eight formed for the remainder of the season (14 rounds). Each team plays 25 matches in the season. But what happens next year, does this entire structure get repeated or do they stay as three leagues of eight? If they stay as leagues of eight, how many matches are they expected to play in a season? Home and away twice would mean playing 28 matches.

 

No, the following season you revert back to two groups of 12 and go through the system again.    The top four clubs from the middle group of 8 joining the top 8 in SL1 and the others joining the other 8 in SL2.    


I remember when .............................

"It is impossible not to feel a twinge of sympathy for Workington Town, the fall guys this season for the Super League's determination to retain it's European dimension, in the shape of Paris. While the French have had every assistance to survive, the importance of having a flagship in a heartland area like West Cumbria has been conveniently forgotten." - Dave Hadfield - Independent 25th August 1996.


#6 Supporter

Supporter
  • Coach
  • 460 posts

Posted 06 May 2013 - 04:33 PM

Sorry I did an edit during your answer Keith and thanks for your prompt clarification. The only fair way for this system to work would be if all teams in both SL1 and SL2 had equal salary caps and identical recruitment rules. However, if agreed,(even if the salary cap for SL2 was less than SL1 but considerably enhanced) this would be unrealistic, the reality would mean that nine Championship clubs would have to find massive funding and probably have full-time squads to make the leap. I don't think that the financial climate is suitable for all but a few to accept that particular challenge. There is nothing wrong with the existing competitive Championship League, all that is really needed Is the reintroduction of promotion and relegation.

Edited by Supporter, 06 May 2013 - 05:48 PM.


#7 dkw

dkw
  • Workington
  • 4,543 posts

Posted 06 May 2013 - 06:18 PM

So let me get this right. Everyone rolls a dice, if you get a 1 you play teams who's name begins with a-g, roll a 2 you play in Wellies, roll a 3 you play blindfolded, a 4 means you play gateshead 17 times, 5 means you have to change your name to plinky plonk rlfc and have time for play the piano all season. 6 means roll again.

#8 Supporter

Supporter
  • Coach
  • 460 posts

Posted 06 May 2013 - 07:33 PM

So let me get this right. Everyone rolls a dice, if you get a 1 you play teams who's name begins with a-g, roll a 2 you play in Wellies, roll a 3 you play blindfolded, a 4 means you play gateshead 17 times, 5 means you have to change your name to plinky plonk rlfc and have time for play the piano all season. 6 means roll again.


If you get £200 every time you pass GO, then that scheme might work!

#9 wonky

wonky
  • Coach
  • 4,476 posts

Posted 06 May 2013 - 09:28 PM


So let me get this right. Everyone rolls a dice, if you get a 1 you play teams who's name begins with a-g, roll a 2 you play in Wellies, roll a 3 you play blindfolded, a 4 means you play gateshead 17 times, 5 means you have to change your name to plinky plonk rlfc and have time for play the piano all season. 6 means roll again.

sssshhhh they might actually consider it.
the futures bright,the futures blue and white

#10 Supporter

Supporter
  • Coach
  • 460 posts

Posted 07 May 2013 - 09:31 AM

Two questions.
1. Will there be a trophy for winning SL1/2. Or will there be trophies for winning sub-groups 8A/B/C?
2. Top four of Sub-group 8B will join Sub-group 8A to form SL1 for the following season. The bottom four of Sub-group 8B form SL2 with Sub-group 8C for the following season - therefore Sub Group 8B have something to play for - promotion. But what will Sub-group 8C have to play for, other than to avoid relegation?

#11 Keith T

Keith T
  • Coach
  • 8,811 posts

Posted 13 May 2013 - 04:17 PM

The more I read and look at the proposal for restructure or should I say the one proposal from the four that seems to be getting all the attention, the more I dislike it.    Looking at it from a SL club and their fans perspective it might seem like a good idea and even looking from the lofty position of Fev and Fax in our league it may seem like it will give them a good shout of making it to SL.    However, when you start to break it down there is a lot of unfairness in the system.

 

To start the system at the end of 2014, 2 SL teams have to drop out in to the Championship and that could be 3 SL teams drop out if the RFL and SLE in their wisdom allow Toulouse in to the top league.      This would mean our current league could lose up to 5 clubs in order for there to be two top tiers of 12 clubs in each.

 

The top two tiers play every other club once in the first half of the season but with 11 games that already gives an imbalance, so the possible answer is to play 5 at home and 5 away and play the other games on Magic Weekend.    That would automatically mean two Magic Weekends because there would have to be one for each of the two tiers.   Even if they play 5 at home and 5 away there is another imbalance in which teams you get to play at home and which teams you play away.    You could get two teams tied on points for 8th and 9th position but decided on points difference by one team having to play away to the top two teams whilst the other met them at home.

 

Next we split in to three groups of 8.    The top 8 will play each other team in their 8 home and away and add their points to those accumulated in the first 11 games but here again an imbalance because some teams will have played the top teams away and others will have played them at home so the points system is unbalanced.    

 

The bottom four teams in the top tier and the top four teams in the second tier then form the middle group of 8, not forgetting that that top four could conceivably contain the 2 or 3 SL clubs that were dropped out of the top tier to get it down to 12 and 1 or 2 of the current Championship clubs.   The four top tier clubs would have been working on a salary cap of £1.25 million, the 2 or 3 that drop out would be working on our salary cap but they would be getting their parachute payment of £800k whilst the Championship clubs would be working on the same salary cap but with only a £180k handout from the RFL.    Where is the fairness in that?

 

The top four teams in this middle group of 8 move up to join the top 8 to form the top tier for the following season whilst the bottom four re-join the other 8 teams that make up the third group of eight.    So the third group of 8 have been playing each other again and adding their first 11 games points for what exactly?    No, promotion as they are already in that group.    The only thing they are playing for in that group is to avoid the one bottom place where they will be relegated to the current Championship 1.

 

The main concern in the whole process is P & R and the fact that the RFL are concerned about clubs going up and coming down with debts in a yo-yo system.    So, how about 3 leagues of 12 teams,    The bottom team of the top league is replaced by the Champion team of the second league and likewise with league 2 and 3.   To get round the financial aspect of the promoted club not being able to match current top tier clubs why not give the promoted club £2 million for the first year and the remainder of the Sky money divided in to 12 shares (11 clubs plus the RFL) which on current fees would be around £1.33 million.    On top of this I would give the promoted team one year immunity from relegation so that if they finished bottom in their first year the next to bottom is relegated.

 

This would give the promoted team to the top tier extra money to catch up with the others who have been getting large sums over several years and also give that team a years grace in which to get things moving in the right direction if they wish to remain in the top league.   From the RFL's share suitable remuneration could be given to the team promoted from the 3rd tier to the 2nd tier for the same purpose.

 

Straightforward system that everyone can understand and one where there could still be play-offs and Champions decided at Grand Finals, etc.


I remember when .............................

"It is impossible not to feel a twinge of sympathy for Workington Town, the fall guys this season for the Super League's determination to retain it's European dimension, in the shape of Paris. While the French have had every assistance to survive, the importance of having a flagship in a heartland area like West Cumbria has been conveniently forgotten." - Dave Hadfield - Independent 25th August 1996.


#12 morty

morty
  • Coach
  • 2,159 posts

Posted 13 May 2013 - 04:39 PM

why not just have two divisions of 12 and a third of 14 ..then play each other home and away to determine who is league champion and who gets relegated .... oh wait thats a bit too bleedin simple isnt it ????

 

Lee


Lee Morton

 

Raiders have risen from the ashes


#13 DavidM

DavidM
  • Coach
  • 5,858 posts

Posted 13 May 2013 - 05:01 PM

My broad sentiments Lee , or 12 /14 /12 . Our league is working well , in time that top 5 would be infiltrated , and its very competitive .
Simple is better RFL ! Leagues should have 12 minimum and a natural flow of promotion and relegation should work between them .

#14 town4me

town4me
  • Workington
  • 1,953 posts

Posted 13 May 2013 - 05:05 PM

why not just leave it as it is. all the rfl have to do is realise that SL isn't the be all and end all of RL and put more money into the championship and C1.

Edited by town4me, 13 May 2013 - 05:06 PM.


#15 DavidM

DavidM
  • Coach
  • 5,858 posts

Posted 13 May 2013 - 05:12 PM

Rugby League is top heavy , SL runs the game and the RFL panders to them . Even with the return of relegation they get a massive financial lever to get right back to where they started . Why should they get a head start if they weren't good enough on the paddock ? Every team in any league should be playing by the same rules .. John Kear last week was all nodding dog for the RFL and talked of bringing back competitive games and seasons not being over by June . How can a coach in our league this year question games being competitive ! Ridiculous . And as Keith says how is this middle league breeding competition any more than now with the massive financial imbalance ? You can get relegated but our closed shop will see you in again soon with a tasty parachute payment ( for failure ) . Relegation lite it is really . Anyway im not bothered what they do , they can mess around with SL all they like but in terms of major structural change leave us out of it .

Edited by DavidM, 13 May 2013 - 05:20 PM.


#16 unicorn106

unicorn106
  • Coach
  • 1,193 posts

Posted 13 May 2013 - 05:45 PM

Who in their right mind would buy a season ticket not knowing where they were playing in the second half of season ?

 

Me probably :rolleyes:



#17 shaun mc

shaun mc
  • Coach
  • 1,627 posts

Posted 13 May 2013 - 06:20 PM

There isn't enough money in the game from Sky and sponsorship to achieve more full time teams and more that will spend up to the salary cap in SL. Plus as we know there is no trickle-down of funds from TV deals and sponsorship through the RL pyramid.

SL has no title sponsor this year, last year they gave it away for nowt and free advertising for Eddie Stobart and Sky.

Either they will have to reduce the salary cap - and more players go to Australia or union or there has to be some more cash somewhere. Maybe there is if they let Toulouse into the top division and a French TV deal, but I can't see anything else. No big money companies are queuing up to put sponsorship money into RL, to make these proposals work.

These proposals aren't bad as they make more of the season competitive. Ian Millward virtually admitted on Sat afternoon that Castleford gave up with 10 games to go and sold some of the best players. Season ticket holders were short changed and that may be reflected in attendances this year.

However, there is still an imbalance between the bottom 4 of group 1 (full time spending say £1.2m on player salaries) and the top4 of group 2 (spending £300k) unless there is a serious re-structuring of how the money is shared out. And that group of 8 would be very predictable. It would mean say Featherstone getting their wish to play the likes of Widnes and Cas, and for one-offs hey can raise their game, but it will still end up with the status quo overall.

I think its potentionally better than we have now, but only if more money is available allround the top 3 tiers of RL.

Edited by shaun mc, 13 May 2013 - 06:22 PM.


#18 Supporter

Supporter
  • Coach
  • 460 posts

Posted 16 May 2013 - 04:29 PM

Respectful nudge. Perfect time tomorrow for knowledgeable fans like Keith T, David M et al. to put their viewpoints to the Rugby League during the online session (12.00pm - 1.00pm) regarding the ongoing Policy Review and planned competition restructuring.

Edited by Supporter, 16 May 2013 - 04:48 PM.


#19 Keith T

Keith T
  • Coach
  • 8,811 posts

Posted 20 May 2013 - 10:01 PM

If the Option 3 (2 leagues of 12 dividing in to 3 leagues of 8 )is accepted and voted through by clubs in July I fear many clubs could be signing their death warrant.     At the end  of 2014 season at least 2 SL clubs are being relegated under this Option in order to get the top league down to the 12 teams.  Those teams will be receiving parachute payments of several hundred thousands of pounds.   In order for our league to cater for these clubs 4 clubs in our league will be relegated to the Championship 1.

 

Using the League Tables as of 5th May, as the end of the 2014 season, that would give a breakdown as follows:-

 

Super League (12 teams; salary cap £1.6 million, Sky money £1.25 million)

Wigan

Huddersfield

Warrington

Leeds

Catalan

Hull

Bradford

St Helens

Hull KR

Wakefield

Widnes

Castleford

 

Championship (12 teams, salary cap £300k, Central funding £180k)

London Broncos  -   parachute payment of several hundred thousand pounds

Salford  -  parachute payment of several thousand pounds

Halifax

Featherstone

Sheffield

Leigh

Batley

Whitehaven

Workington

Swinton

Hunslet

Dewsbury

 

York, Doncaster, Barrow and Keighley would be relegated to Championship 1

 

If these were the positions at the halfway point in the 2015 season then take the bottom four from SL and the top four from Championship and they will form the middle group of 8 to play for the four SL places in the following season.   The other 8 teams in the Championship would then be playing to avoid the bottom position and relegation to the Championship 1 to be replaced by the Championship 1 champion.    That is the only thing to play for for those 8 clubs which would include us and Haven on these tables.

 

Before any votes are taken this really wants thinking through by the clubs especially clubs in our league.    It may be alright for the likes of Fev and Fax, etc, with several years of this league and success and also with wealthy benefactors but for most there looks to be many pitfalls.


Edited by Keith T, 20 May 2013 - 10:02 PM.

I remember when .............................

"It is impossible not to feel a twinge of sympathy for Workington Town, the fall guys this season for the Super League's determination to retain it's European dimension, in the shape of Paris. While the French have had every assistance to survive, the importance of having a flagship in a heartland area like West Cumbria has been conveniently forgotten." - Dave Hadfield - Independent 25th August 1996.





0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users