Jump to content


League Express

Podcast

Photo
* * - - - 1 votes

Ed Miliband


  • Please log in to reply
777 replies to this topic

#121 Leeds Wire

Leeds Wire
  • Coach
  • 3,869 posts

Posted 06 June 2013 - 09:48 PM

After leaving the Labour Party in 1994 following 12 years as an active member, I was seriously considering rejoining the party. However, todays policy announcements on welfare, the hypocritical acceptance of a tax avoiding donation, hot on the heels of Ball's unilateral decision to abandon the principle of universal benefits, I am now further away from that decision than since Blair called an illegal war. I would think there are also many members tearing up their membership cards.How the party think that there is electoral advantage in trying to be nastier than the Tories and forgetting the reasons why their core support vote Labour is beyond me. Despite deep emotional ties to the party I'm not sure I could even stomach voting Labour at the moment. Very sad and very angry.


I totally agree. Really well put, too.

I was going to rejoin and campaign but I just feel sad and betrayed tonight. I don't know where to turn now.

#122 ckn

ckn
  • Admin
  • 16,868 posts

Posted 06 June 2013 - 10:01 PM

Many natural Tories dislike Cameron and the current party.
Many natural Labour people dislike the current party.
Many natural Lib Dema dislike the current party.

Too many people feel the only alternative option is a party that is only against things.

Arguing with the forum trolls is like playing chess with a pigeon.  No matter how good you are, the bird will **** on the board and strut around like it won anyway


#123 Trojan

Trojan
  • Coach
  • 15,167 posts

Posted 06 June 2013 - 10:11 PM

After leaving the Labour Party in 1994 following 12 years as an active member, I was seriously considering rejoining the party. However, todays policy announcements on welfare, the hypocritical acceptance of a tax avoiding donation, hot on the heels of Ball's unilateral decision to abandon the principle of universal benefits, I am now further away from that decision than since Blair called an illegal war. I would think there are also many members tearing up their membership cards.

How the party think that there is electoral advantage in trying to be nastier than the Tories and forgetting the reasons why their core support vote Labour is beyond me. Despite deep emotional ties to the party I'm not sure I could even stomach voting Labour at the moment. Very sad and very angry.

 

I feel like that. If Labour can't offer a genuine radical alternative to this lot's nasty devisive policies, why bother having a Labour party.  I reckon Milliband and Balls have been got at by Blair.  Sooner or later people will see through the Tories' lies and vote for a restoration of the Welfare State that is being stealthily demolished. Labour should resist this with every means in their power. 

Make no mistake the Tories saw the recession as their big chance to get rid of the 1945 settlment.  The only way to control a Tory government is for Labour to propose sensible radical alternatives that get people's attention. 


"Your a one trick pony Trojan" - Parksider 10th March 2013

#124 Methven Hornet

Methven Hornet
  • Coach
  • 9,496 posts

Posted 06 June 2013 - 10:43 PM

I feel like that. If Labour can't offer a genuine radical alternative to this lot's nasty devisive policies, why bother having a Labour party.  I reckon Milliband and Balls have been got at by Blair.  Sooner or later people will see through the Tories' lies and vote for a restoration of the Welfare State that is being stealthily demolished. Labour should resist this with every means in their power. 
Make no mistake the Tories saw the recession as their big chance to get rid of the 1945 settlment.  The only way to control a Tory government is for Labour to propose sensible radical alternatives that get people's attention.

Which recession?

Seriously, I'm undecided as to whether the extended economic downturn is actually down to incompetence, as many believe, or whether the Tories do see it as an opportunity to 're-engineer' British society.
"There are now more pandas in Scotland than Tory MPs."

#125 Steve May

Steve May
  • Coach
  • 10,111 posts

Posted 06 June 2013 - 11:18 PM

Let's not forget the two-facedness of Margaret Hodge on the tax issue. She is an absolute joke.

 

 

http://www.telegraph...-in-the-UK.html

 

 

http://www.independe...ed-8633014.html

 

 

As we know, there are lots of reasons why companies might pay low tax rates.  There are very good reasons why governments might set up schemes to encourage investment by allowing companies to offset the tax, for example. 

 

There is a difference between paying low tax because you've invested a lot of capital in a new technology and you're getting tax relief, and paying low tax because you're using accounting chicanery to sell your products back to yourself from a holding company located in a filing cabinet in Belize.

 

I don't know which of these is happening here.  Probably a bit of both.


That's me.  I'm done.


#126 Steve May

Steve May
  • Coach
  • 10,111 posts

Posted 06 June 2013 - 11:23 PM

After leaving the Labour Party in 1994 following 12 years as an active member, I was seriously considering rejoining the party. However, todays policy announcements on welfare, the hypocritical acceptance of a tax avoiding donation, hot on the heels of Ball's unilateral decision to abandon the principle of universal benefits, I am now further away from that decision than since Blair called an illegal war. I would think there are also many members tearing up their membership cards.

How the party think that there is electoral advantage in trying to be nastier than the Tories and forgetting the reasons why their core support vote Labour is beyond me. Despite deep emotional ties to the party I'm not sure I could even stomach voting Labour at the moment. Very sad and very angry.

 

You'll have to forgive me, I'm not in the UK.

 

What has been said?


That's me.  I'm done.


#127 Bedford Roughyed

Bedford Roughyed
  • Moderator
  • 5,290 posts

Posted 06 June 2013 - 11:50 PM

You'll have to forgive me, I'm not in the UK.

 

What has been said?

 

Milliband - http://www.bbc.co.uk...litics-22785282

 

Balls -http://www.bbc.co.uk...siness-22748914

 

Donation - http://www.bbc.co.uk...litics-22793181


With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

#128 Steve May

Steve May
  • Coach
  • 10,111 posts

Posted 07 June 2013 - 01:47 AM

Milliband - http://www.bbc.co.uk...litics-22785282

 

Balls -http://www.bbc.co.uk...siness-22748914

 

Donation - http://www.bbc.co.uk...litics-22793181

 

Interesting.  I'm not sure what the points in the Miliband link actually mean for real people. 

 

On the Balls link, I think the benefits of universal payments mean that it's probably better to keep them in some circumstances, but it really depends on the circumstances.   Free schools are an incredibly daft and divisive idea and very expensive so good riddance - hopefully most of the current government's barking education policy will follow.  The idea of police commissioners was always laughable and noone will notice if they're canned anyway.

 

On child benefit in particular, the current government policy hits me absolutely squarely.   Personally I face a very high marginal tax rate as a result of it, but the really annoying thing is that I *still* have received nothing at all about it from the government despite being told months ago that I should have received an explanatory letter.

 

The tax thing is so obviously stupid that I can't believe they were naive enough to let themselves be caught out by it.   People expect the Tories to fiddle their tax, they expect the Labour Party to be pretty straight (although they're probably naive to think that).  


That's me.  I'm done.


#129 JohnM

JohnM
  • Coach
  • 20,152 posts

Posted 07 June 2013 - 08:03 AM

Many natural Tories dislike Cameron and the current party.
Many natural Labour people dislike the current party.
Many natural Lib Dema dislike the current party.

Too many people feel the only alternative option is a party that is only against things.

 

I do think that parties lose elections rather than win them. " I've had enough of this lot..lets give someone else a chance."   add to that what seems to be a growing trend to abstain from voting. 

 

there is also maybe a feeling that the electorate is not catered for. Party 1 has this  plat du jour. Party 2 has that plat du jour. if you don't like fish, or chicken , you've had it. 



#130 Wolford6

Wolford6
  • Coach
  • 10,231 posts

Posted 07 June 2013 - 08:36 AM

Steve, I know you're a staunch Labour Party man and you honestly believe that the Party has the best interests of the working man at heart.

 

However, no matter how you dress up its policies, no one will agree with you so long as the leadership themselves never look like (i) they are being entirely honest and/or (ii) actually believe these policies are viable when they air them on TV.

 

Miliband and Balls come across as being just as straight and credible as Mandelson and Hewitt appeared in the previous Labour regime. Their policies change every week depending on the outcome of the latest opinion poll.

 

Ignore the polls, Cameron will repeat John Major's resurrection performance at the next election. Like Major, he'll not get in because his party's any good, but because Miliband and his leadership team are seen as a shifty lightweights.


Under Scrutiny by the Right-On Thought Police


#131 Steve May

Steve May
  • Coach
  • 10,111 posts

Posted 07 June 2013 - 09:31 AM

Steve, I know you're a staunch Labour Party man and you honestly believe that the Party has the best interests of the working man at heart.

 

In the main, yes.

 

Too many people, both inside and outside the Labour Party, would like it to be an organisation with some kind of magical ability to be all things to all men.   And so you get a policy announcement and suddenly everyone's ripping up their membership cards and flouncing off.

 

One of the reasons why I stick with Labour pretty staunchly is because the choice isn't between this Labour Party and a perfect Labour Party, it's between this Labour Party and the Tories.  And I think the Tories are appalling.

 

The reality is, if you believe in some sort of equality, some sort of fairness in the way society is organised, then the Labour Party really is the only game in town.   For all it's maddening inconsistencies, policy lurches and moments of outright stupidity there really is no other organisation that has had such a profound effect as the Labour Party and the broader Labour movement that moves along with it. 

 

Sure, you could join one of the myriad little parties on the left, but you may as well stay at home playing Sim City for all the influence you'll have on the real world.


That's me.  I'm done.


#132 ckn

ckn
  • Admin
  • 16,868 posts

Posted 07 June 2013 - 09:31 AM

I do think that parties lose elections rather than win them. " I've had enough of this lot..lets give someone else a chance."   add to that what seems to be a growing trend to abstain from voting. 

 

there is also maybe a feeling that the electorate is not catered for. Party 1 has this  plat du jour. Party 2 has that plat du jour. if you don't like fish, or chicken , you've had it. 

I agree with you on that.  If there were a general election tomorrow, I doubt I'd bother voting.  This would be the first time I'd not voted in my life.  Even since living in a Tory enclave where my non-Tory vote is barely noticed against the blue tide I've gone out of my way to vote.


I accept that parties will never fully match what I want.  When I switched from Labour to the Lib Dems I did it knowing that they were wildly out of line with my views in many ways but there were other like minded people as me in the party and my views were accepted.  Now, the Lib Dems have "professionalised" in that they're far less tolerant of loudly dissenting internal voices; someone like me who thinks that nuclear power is the only viable long-term guaranteed power source used to be tolerated, now they're hushed up to ensure that there's an undiluted party line.  The sole time I was REALLY comfortable with my views being aligned were with Labour under John Smith in the 1990s.

 

As far as I'm concerned, the current Labour party aren't far away from the Tories of the 80s in terms of political views.  The Tories are not sure what they want to be, half of their policies try to drag them to the centre, the other half drag them towards swivel eyed lunacies.  The Lib Dems are a soulless bunch of opportunists, they'd happily switch to supporting Labour tomorrow if it got them a wee bit more time in power while being nothing more than a "me too!" squeak tolerated by the Labour leadership.  UKIP are just against things, they have no policies of their own to deserve such a large opinion poll percentage.  The Greens are the swivel eyed loonies of the left.  The BNP are the pustulent boil on the backside of UK politics.  Screaming Lord Sutch is dead.

 

On my original paragraph, the only way I'd vote if there were an election tomorrow would be to keep a UKIP or BNP candidate out.


Arguing with the forum trolls is like playing chess with a pigeon.  No matter how good you are, the bird will **** on the board and strut around like it won anyway


#133 WearyRhino

WearyRhino
  • Coach
  • 3,222 posts

Posted 07 June 2013 - 09:59 AM


Too many people, both inside and outside the Labour Party, would like it to be an organisation with some kind of magical ability to be all things to all men.


The people guilty of that Steve are the coterie of Whitehall Spads and paid PR gurus who think they know how to catch swing voters in marginals but know little of the party, even less of the people the party should represent and will never knock on a door in any constituency, marginal or otherwise.

LUNEW.jpg


#134 Severus

Severus
  • Coach
  • 12,933 posts

Posted 07 June 2013 - 11:07 AM

Steve, I know you're a staunch Labour Party man and you honestly believe that the Party has the best interests of the working man at heart.

 

However, no matter how you dress up its policies, no one will agree with you so long as the leadership themselves never look like (i) they are being entirely honest and/or (ii) actually believe these policies are viable when they air them on TV.

 

Miliband and Balls come across as being just as straight and credible as Mandelson and Hewitt appeared in the previous Labour regime. Their policies change every week depending on the outcome of the latest opinion poll.

 

That argument can apply to any political party in any given election. 


Fides invicta triumphat

#135 Wolford6

Wolford6
  • Coach
  • 10,231 posts

Posted 07 June 2013 - 11:17 AM

That argument can apply to any political party in any given election. 

 

You are from a working class background? Do you think that Miliband or Balls would happily blend into your social circle, or your family's? Could you blend with theirs?

 

I think, in my case ... Balls possibly, Miliband never. But, at an official reception,  both would trample over you to get to someone with more influence. And not give a backward glance.


Under Scrutiny by the Right-On Thought Police


#136 Severus

Severus
  • Coach
  • 12,933 posts

Posted 07 June 2013 - 11:23 AM

You are from a working class background? Do you think that Miliband or Balls would happily blend into your social circle, or your family's? Could you blend with theirs?

 

I think, in my case ... Balls possibly, Miliband never. But, at an official reception,  both would trample over you to get to someone with more influence. And not give a backward glance.

 

Does that matter in a senior politician? As long as they either have some idea of what it is like for their constituency or failing that, as long as their policies have their best interests in mind then I don't think mixing socially with a politician is up their in the list of priorities.

 

FWIW I reckon I could enjoy a pint with Balls, Milliband and also Cameron for that matter. Osbourne on the other hand may be a different matter.


Fides invicta triumphat

#137 John Drake

John Drake
  • Admin
  • 7,650 posts

Posted 07 June 2013 - 12:00 PM

If you wait for a political party to come along that aligns with every single one of your own personal beliefs and aspirations, you'll wait forever.

 

In our political system, you can only really pick the least worst option available, or opt out altogether which will only strengthen the voices of those you probably disagree with the most.

 

I tend to agree with Steve May's analysis.


John Drake
Site Admin: TotalRL.com
TotalRL.com
Email: john.drake@totalrl.com


#138 Wolford6

Wolford6
  • Coach
  • 10,231 posts

Posted 07 June 2013 - 12:07 PM

Lovely bunch in the Labour Party, full of brotherly love.

 

http://order-order.c...lotting-dinner/


Under Scrutiny by the Right-On Thought Police


#139 ckn

ckn
  • Admin
  • 16,868 posts

Posted 07 June 2013 - 12:23 PM

Lovely bunch in the Labour Party, full of brotherly love.

 

http://order-order.c...lotting-dinner/

To be fair, that does happen in all the parties.  That said, Labour do seem to excel at it these days.


Arguing with the forum trolls is like playing chess with a pigeon.  No matter how good you are, the bird will **** on the board and strut around like it won anyway


#140 Methven Hornet

Methven Hornet
  • Coach
  • 9,496 posts

Posted 07 June 2013 - 09:45 PM

If you wait for a political party to come along that aligns with every single one of your own personal beliefs and aspirations, you'll wait forever.
 
In our political system, you can only really pick the least worst option available, or opt out altogether which will only strengthen the voices of those you probably disagree with the most.
 
I tend to agree with Steve May's analysis.

I don't think people are waiting for a party like that, but it's clear that a lot of Labour supporters feel let down by the direction the party is taking. People aren't expecting a New Jerusalem but they at least want the Labour leadership to be challenging the Tory narrative and, more importantly, coming up with alternative strategies.

The least worst for UK government? Perhaps, fractionally, but only because the membership and support might just keep them in check, and might just steer the leadership away from such policies as the bedroom tax.
"There are now more pandas in Scotland than Tory MPs."




0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users