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Bringing back promotion and relegation will set the sport back in this country several years

The return of boom and bust

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#61 Rover and out

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 07:41 PM

Personal reasons to do with life outside rugby league: ie the fact that there is one
And other reasons none of which relate to the club and the people who run it or are employed by it.
That's all I want to say
And I thank you for your interest
Cw


Fair enough and thanks for the response, it's just for me personally this is the most exciting time I've had as a Fev fan but each to their own I suppose

#62 Padge

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 08:12 PM

We seem to have a lot of people who spend too little time in the real world. The general public want p&r, it's part of the culture in the UK, in the same way it isn't in Australia or USA. That's the same GP you have to attract to the product to replace the ones walking away.
Global sport changed with the income from Tv, compArisons before and after are silly, what is relevant is how we have done against our primary competitors, soccer and RU in that time- anyone thinking well needs their head examined, we have gone backward at pace, yet both have retained p&r

Why did the game have its highest crowds when it had no P&R?

 

That goes for the pre-SL and post SL eras, the game has still had more years without P&R than with, so how come it is the sporting culture of SL all of a sudden, the sporting culture of RL has mostly been no P&R and play-offs.


Edited by Padge, 08 May 2013 - 08:16 PM.


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#63 Ant

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 08:18 PM

Because facts and reality have no place in his world

not enough room due to those memories of sepia tinted players playing their trade in front of packed houses

#64 bedlam breakout

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 08:18 PM

hows about- bottom sl play top of the lower division, as double header at the grand final? now is that just crazy? or what?


the inside of a 3star halex table tennis ball smells much like you'd expect it to.

#65 Padge

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 08:20 PM

People who believe SL signalled the demise of the game over here in the mid 90's are barking up the wrong tree. The major factor attributed to RL's lessening impact on mainstream media was the professionalism of Union. That meant RL could no longer attract the best players from both codes.

Bang on the money, and Union jumped in quick as panic stations kicked in in the southern hemisphere when there was a sudden cash rich RL to contend with, they couldn't pretend anymore, they had to come clean.



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Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.


#66 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 08:41 PM


hows about- bottom sl play top of the lower division, as double header at the grand final? now is that just crazy? or what?


The first one
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#67 Just to be clear

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 08:49 PM

Just to be clear, the only thing that sets the sport back and will kill the sport are its fans and supporters.

There are those who make wildly exaggerated claims about how promotion and relegation will make every perfect and those who make wildly exaggerated claims about how franchising and mergers will make everything perfect, and the few in between who get drowned out. So no matter what option the RFL and clubs take there will be a large section of the fans who will make excuses about why they will not go to games because it is dying and the administrators are clueless and talk the sport down at every opportunity.

#68 bobbruce

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 08:54 PM

Just to be clear, the only thing that sets the sport back and will kill the sport are its fans and supporters.

There are those who make wildly exaggerated claims about how promotion and relegation will make every perfect and those who make wildly exaggerated claims about how franchising and mergers will make everything perfect, and the few in between who get drowned out. So no matter what option the RFL and clubs take there will be a large section of the fans who will make excuses about why they will not go to games because it is dying and the administrators are clueless and talk the sport down at every opportunity.



What he said.

I just wish he was a bit clearer.

#69 bedlam breakout

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 09:01 PM

The first one

the first what?


the inside of a 3star halex table tennis ball smells much like you'd expect it to.

#70 Trojan

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 09:03 PM

The fuss last weekend in Yorkshire soccer. Hull City promoted - all over Sky on Saturday afternoon.  Huddersfield, Wednesday and Barnsley avoid relegation - all over Look North. Bradford City going to Wembley again - and one of their biggest crowds.  P&R is a big draw in soccer.  It could be again in RL. As has been said earlier, what we have at the moment, especially in the latter days of the season, for the bottom clubs in SL is a series of friendlies. Plus of course we have the practice of targetting certain games and not bothering about others - Hull KR are good enough to beat FC on Good Friday, but not good enough to put up a decent show against the Pies on Easter Monday - same goes for Widnes.  

 Yes it's difficult for a promoted club to come up to speed in SL. But then it's just as difficult for a championship club to maintain promotion form for 3- 4 seasons. Look at Fev. We've lost our coach.  We may start to struggle and all the success in 2010,2011 & 2012 will be meaningless from the point of view of licensing.


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#71 Padge

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 09:37 PM

The fuss last weekend in Yorkshire soccer. Hull City promoted - all over Sky on Saturday afternoon.  Huddersfield, Wednesday and Barnsley avoid relegation - all over Look North. Bradford City going to Wembley again - and one of their biggest crowds.  P&R is a big draw in soccer.  It could be again in RL. As has been said earlier, what we have at the moment, especially in the latter days of the season, for the bottom clubs in SL is a series of friendlies. Plus of course we have the practice of targetting certain games and not bothering about others - Hull KR are good enough to beat FC on Good Friday, but not good enough to put up a decent show against the Pies on Easter Monday - same goes for Widnes.  

 Yes it's difficult for a promoted club to come up to speed in SL. But then it's just as difficult for a championship club to maintain promotion form for 3- 4 seasons. Look at Fev. We've lost our coach.  We may start to struggle and all the success in 2010,2011 & 2012 will be meaningless from the point of view of licensing.

The fuss would be invented regardless, comparing us with football is just a nonsense.

 

With P&R clubs will spend more time targeting certain games, do you honestly believe this never went on in the past and if in the future a club under threat of relegation would treat a game against the top club which they are certain to lose different to a game against a bottom club they have a chance of beating. REAL WORLD BECKONING, WAKE UP

 

The great relegation clashes of season after season are a myth, you get the odd one every so often, bring me a list of 5 years on a trot of great relegation clashes that produced massively above average crowds. You'll struggle to find two back to back seasons.



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Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007
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#72 jpmc

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 09:40 PM

lobby the two leigh amateur clubs are struggling to field teams at under 15 and under 16 to 18, so the production line is drying up and you forgot to mention the obvious source for players..............the antipodes

Lobbys post is correct,What mustn't be allowed to happen is what you are suggesting will happen .

#73 Trojan

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 09:46 PM

The fuss would be invented regardless, comparing us with football is just a nonsense.

 

With P&R clubs will spend more time targeting certain games, do you honestly believe this never went on in the past and if in the future a club under threat of relegation would treat a game against the top club which they are certain to lose different to a game against a bottom club they have a chance of beating. REAL WORLD BECKONING, WAKE UP

 

The great relegation clashes of season after season are a myth, you get the odd one every so often, bring me a list of 5 years on a trot of great relegation clashes that produced massively above average crowds. You'll struggle to find two back to back seasons.

 

But Hull KR aren't a bottom club.  Hull City won the first division, do you seriously think there'd be the same amount of enthusiasm if they weren't going to be promoted.  "Comparing RL with football is a nonsense/"  I've got news for you Dave RL IS football.  We need the oxygen of publicity like any other sport.  When Fev won the championship in 2011 BBC Look North ignored them.  Their cameras were at North Marine Road, Scarborough, watching a rained off Yorkshire fixture, because Yorkshire were in a relegation battle.  Because of the rain they couldn't even show any cricket.  They didn't even have a reporter at Warrington.  That's what P&R does. It created interest.  What we've got may not be killing Wigan, Saints, Wire and Leeds, but it's killing the rest of us.


Edited by Trojan, 08 May 2013 - 09:47 PM.

"Your a one trick pony Trojan" - Parksider 10th March 2013

#74 Padge

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 10:03 PM

But Hull KR aren't a bottom club.  Hull City won the first division, do you seriously think there'd be the same amount of enthusiasm if they weren't going to be promoted.  "Comparing RL with football is a nonsense/"  I've got news for you Dave RL IS football.  We need the oxygen of publicity like any other sport.  When Fev won the championship in 2011 BBC Look North ignored them.  Their cameras were at North Marine Road, Scarborough, watching a rained off Yorkshire fixture, because Yorkshire were in a relegation battle.  Because of the rain they couldn't even show any cricket.  They didn't even have a reporter at Warrington.  That's what P&R does. It created interest.  What we've got may not be killing Wigan, Saints, Wire and Leeds, but it's killing the rest of us.

In 1977 how much time did the BBC give to the winners of the second division in RL, how much was in the newspapers, you seem to think a minor club in a minor sport winning a minor trophy was backpage news. It wasn't.

 

Our game has always been starve of publicity, it seemed like we had a lot of 'national' news in the past because the papers had Northern editions, those articles didn't appear all over the country, there is another myth that we had national recognition because the Daily Mirror gave us a lot of space, it gave us a lot of space in the NOrther edition, the other editions had nothing.

 

The death knell for RL as a headline backpage sport wasn't SL it was the closure of the local press offices which happened 10 years or more before.

 

You can have the most exciting P&R competition you want, it won't make one jot of difference to the amount of coverage.



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Radio 5 Live: Saturday 14 April 2007
Dave Whelan "In Wigan rugby will always be king"

 

This country's wealth was created by men in overalls, it was destroyed by men in suits.


#75 jpmc

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 10:26 PM

In 1977 how much time did the BBC give to the winners of the second division in RL, how much was in the newspapers, you seem to think a minor club in a minor sport winning a minor trophy was backpage news. It wasn't.
 
Our game has always been starve of publicity, it seemed like we had a lot of 'national' news in the past because the papers had Northern editions, those articles didn't appear all over the country, there is another myth that we had national recognition because the Daily Mirror gave us a lot of space, it gave us a lot of space in the NOrther edition, the other editions had nothing.
 
The death knell for RL as a headline backpage sport wasn't SL it was the closure of the local press offices which happened 10 years or more before.
 
You can have the most exciting P&R competition you want, it won't make one jot of difference to the amount of coverage.

Cant argue with most of that but that being the case it seems an odd policy to attempt to kill off most of the clubs in the same areas that the media coverage has been cut back massively, at the same time

Edited by jpmc, 08 May 2013 - 10:27 PM.


#76 sweaty craiq

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 10:27 PM

Around that time Leigh beat Barrow to win the second division, 7000 crowd and it was on BBC in the Monday sports news. Hope that helps. A few years later the Wigan promotion year got great coverage especially the Fulham games. We even had a programme featuring the play offs, RL RAW, and the early GF's to win promotion were live on terrestrial TV - forcing sky coverage due to the interest. I recall a fair bit of interest for Wakey v Cas not too long ago. I remember a Widnes v Leigh game drawing more fans than Quins v Wasps that boxing day.

Why is the salary cap not rising in line with inflation or TV money? Why is there no atmosphere in most SL games and championship ? Why do blue chip companies not want to sponsor the sport anymore ?

 

The obvious answer is because of RL fans, just to be clear of course. Its nothing to do with a rudderless sport, ashamed of its strengths and sinking in a cant do culture


Edited by sweaty craiq, 08 May 2013 - 10:31 PM.


#77 JohnM

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 10:28 PM

The fuss last weekend in Yorkshire soccer. Hull City promoted - all over Sky on Saturday afternoon. Huddersfield, Wednesday and Barnsley avoid relegation - all over Look North. Bradford City going to Wembley again - and one of their biggest crowds. P&R is a big draw in soccer. It could be again in RL. As has been said earlier, what we have at the moment, especially in the latter days of the season, for the bottom clubs in SL is a series of friendlies. Plus of course we have the practice of targetting certain games and not bothering about others - Hull KR are good enough to beat FC on Good Friday, but not good enough to put up a decent show against the Pies on Easter Monday - same goes for Widnes.
Yes it's difficult for a promoted club to come up to speed in SL. But then it's just as difficult for a championship club to maintain promotion form for 3- 4 seasons. Look at Fev. We've lost our coach. We may start to struggle and all the success in 2010,2011 & 2012 will be meaningless from the point of view of licensing.


Clearly we need to adopt the practice that created this excitement. How about reducing teams from 13 to 11, using a round ball, changing the goal posts....

#78 jpmc

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Posted 08 May 2013 - 10:34 PM

Clearly we need to adopt the practice that created this excitement. How about reducing teams from 13 to 11, using a round ball, changing the goal posts....

So if wigan,leeds and one or two other clubs dont want excitement why dont your clubs just go your own way and form a franchised league?

#79 The Parksider

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 04:38 AM

People who believe SL signalled the demise of the game over here in the mid 90's are barking up the wrong tree.

We had a long debate on this and there's not many at all on here who do not realise that the SL deal had to be taken otherwise Union would have swamped us. Players gone, small club folding big clubs pondering switching to RU etc.

#80 The Parksider

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Posted 09 May 2013 - 04:49 AM

The great relegation clashes of season after season are a myth, you get the odd one every so often, bring me a list of 5 years on a trot of great relegation clashes that produced massively above average crowds. You'll struggle to find two back to back seasons.

Wakefield and Cas was the real big one, attending it it served to underline to me that Wakefield could be a big club with the right ground, a competetive team and sound finances.

I love the big relegation clashes but in all the time I've watched RL it mainly either ends up with certain clubs losing so much we know who has gone early and their crowds actually bomb, or it comes to a crucial game when two threatened clubs have a head to head. I particularly recall Widnes.v.Cas and Salford.v.HKR. The latter had 2,000 fans over the average mainly from Rovers.

There no comparison with soccer where half a dizen clubs are threatened week after week.

P & R won't revitalise anything, but it won't harm as long as the bottom SL clubs are uncompetitive. This debate won't be won as those with the self interest are heavily buoyed by the RFL and the clubs supposedly being now heavily in favour of P & R via the proposed new set up where four up and four down can be dreamed of but in reality the games will be pro's.v.semi pro's.




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