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#61 Ponterover

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 12:03 PM

It's also incredibly true.  Where have the extra 1000 fans come from at Rovers in the last year or so?  Like it or not die hards like you are NOT the majority even at Featherstone.  People also plan their summer holidays around fixtures, and whilst that's annoying and complex enough for the fans, how about the commercial side of things for clubs.  Should say Bradford plan for a 15000 crowd with Leeds in July, or a 5000 crowd with Halifax or Featherstone?  All it will lead to is the top clubs taking more and more cream and even if Featherstone prosper in the odd year or two they'll be even further away from the true elite within a couple of years.
 
It's a crackers proposal, that will slightly elevate those at the top of the championship right now for a year or so, but damage them in the long term whilst casting adrift those in the lower half of superleague right now.

The extra fans have come because of the winning team and because of a big marketing effort, not because we now play "big" teams. Wigan and Cas aside, we've been playing the same teams for the last 3 years.

I'm not a die hard btw. I only returned to the fold in mid 2011, after a big long sulk with both the club and the game in general.

#62 Larry the Leit

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 12:28 PM

The extra fans have come because of the winning team and because of a big marketing effort, not because we now play "big" teams. Wigan and Cas aside, we've been playing the same teams for the last 3 years.

I'm not a die hard btw. I only returned to the fold in mid 2011, after a big long sulk with both the club and the game in general.

 

Good for you, and good for Featherstone.  Personally I see the proposals as bad for those currently in the bottom half of superleague as they'll be perceived (rightly) by fans and potential signings/sponsors to be playing in a worse competition, worse for those at the top of the championship as they are thrown into a competition where they'll be getting beaten week in week out, and unthinkably bad for any side below the top half of the championship as they'll simply be forgotten about by the media and sponsors all together.

 

It's actually bad all round too, those that are likely to prosper in the short term (Leeds, Wigan etc) will suffer too, I'm not sure how many time people want to see the same old fixtures, and whether it's written or not this daft proposition will eventually lead to a trimmed down top division as the gap between the top six and the bottom few will become enlarged.

 

I've never been a fan of licensing, but it has given the degree of certainty to the likes of Widnes and Wakefield in the last few years that have enabled them to take some strides forward, I'll also concede that I believe that Featherstone Rovers wouldn't be in the decent shape that they are now had they not been effectively forced to be in order to meet the conditions of superleague entry.  I'll always prefer P&R, but this proposal is so flawed that it hurts every section of the professional.



#63 Ponterover

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 12:39 PM

Good for you, and good for Featherstone.  Personally I see the proposals as bad for those currently in the bottom half of superleague as they'll be perceived (rightly) by fans and potential signings/sponsors to be playing in a worse competition, worse for those at the top of the championship as they are thrown into a competition where they'll be getting beaten week in week out, and unthinkably bad for any side below the top half of the championship as they'll simply be forgotten about by the media and sponsors all together.
 
It's actually bad all round too, those that are likely to prosper in the short term (Leeds, Wigan etc) will suffer too, I'm not sure how many time people want to see the same old fixtures, and whether it's written or not this daft proposition will eventually lead to a trimmed down top division as the gap between the top six and the bottom few will become enlarged.
 
I've never been a fan of licensing, but it has given the degree of certainty to the likes of Widnes and Wakefield in the last few years that have enabled them to take some strides forward, I'll also concede that I believe that Featherstone Rovers wouldn't be in the decent shape that they are now had they not been effectively forced to be in order to meet the conditions of superleague entry.  I'll always prefer P&R, but this proposal is so flawed that it hurts every section of the professional.

The thing is though, we don't think we will get slaughtered every week and I bet Halifax, Sheffield and Leigh don't either.

Our club has big plans and money to spend on the squad.

Teams at the bottom end of Super League will get a big boot up backside and the games involving them will, I hope become much more intense. At present, as a neutral I find games involving the bottom end of Super League a big turn off and usally switch over to something else mid game (unless it's Cas losing - always entertaining :-) ).

I take the point about the bottom end of SL2, but that will not be any worse than now, most of the media don't know they exist.

#64 keighley

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 12:39 PM

You've got me wrong if it was up to me I would have P&R throughout all the leagues. I just thought if the RFL wanted 2 competitive leagues then I doubted whether they would allow relegation from SL2 that's all.I just thought they would have the franchise system in place for P&R to SL2. Just for the simple reason how can a club who is in a partnership with a SL club be aloud to play possibly in the same league.

 

You have a good point there. Not only DR clubs from CC1 but half the clubs in the championship, some of whom would be in this expanded set up, are DR clubs. How is that going to work ? It maybe the end of the mass DR refgistrations that we have seen this season.



#65 Eddie Rombo

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 12:42 PM

No, what would happen is more players would leave SL. The cap shouldn't be getting lower.

I do agree with what your saying.

 

But if in theory Wigan, Leeds and Warrington could only afford to spend a certain amount, an amount which the other clubs could afford, then players from those and other top teams would filter down through the league. if the cap was at an amount all clubs could afford, whatever that is, then you could maybe see Hull KR and Salford keeping the players they lost last season, making them a lot stronger.

 

It should also work because for the big teams to sign players like Ratchford, Smith or Green, they would have to lose players of similar quality and the smaller clubs could sign those players.

 

Smaller teams could also offer better salaries to the young up and coming stars or the veterans looking for a better contact to try and tempt them to their clubs.

 

It also means that clubs have to invest more in junior players to get the most out of their salary cap or look to the championship for cheap alternatives.

 

I know this is an over simplification of the salary cap and it is meant to be like this now but how good would it be if it actually worked like that. 



#66 keighley

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 12:49 PM

What makes you think Leigh have no chance of getting promotion to SL?

 

It seems to me that there are two possible ways for Leigh to get into Superleague.  The first is to decide that's where they are heading and work consistently and damned hard to build a club that can meet the entry criteria and use the three years to continue building until they stabilise.

 

The second is to campaign to have open promotion restored into SL, get lucky enough to go up and then hope to God that they can scrape enough wins together to stay up, and build the club's finances on an overly optimistic forecast of a boom in attendances that in reality will never be big enough.

 

I believe Leigh have already tried the second route.  It didn't go well.

 

 

The third way is to find a big investor and take it from there. Don;'t come back and say it will never happen. When Fev were in CC1, the same thing could have been said.

 

Furthermore when Leigh were in SL, as far as i know their attendances were up from their lower division ones and they did not go belly up. That came later.

 

Huddersfield tried the third way and, despite it not going well for a while, are now a top six team. It's all about the money and from some of the investors who have appeared in recent years at Salford, Fev, Bradford and Halifax, the possibility that there is someone out there who wants to take a gamble can never be discounted.



#67 The Parksider

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 12:55 PM

You have a good point there. Not only DR clubs from CC1 but half the clubs in the championship, some of whom would be in this expanded set up, are DR clubs. How is that going to work ? It maybe the end of the mass DR refgistrations that we have seen this season.

You wish.

The Superleague clubs are going to do an about face??

#68 The Parksider

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 01:05 PM

The third way is to find a big investor and take it from there. Don;'t come back and say it will never happen. When Fev were in CC1, the same thing could have been said. Huddersfield tried the third way and, despite it not going well for a while, are now a top six team. It's all about the money and from some of the investors who have appeared in recent years at Salford, Fev, Bradford and Halifax, the possibility that there is someone out there who wants to take a gamble can never be discounted.

After your debacles of criticising the licensing people for not guaranteeing the financial strength of Clubs in SL when they actually DID down rate them, then suggesting the London SL academy could easily close with no effect because kids could develop equally well at CC1 clubs or travel 200 miles, I think you have an excellent point here.

The plans aim to give an elite eight clubs all the priveliges of an even more elite competition with bigger crowds. It cuts the rest adrif to do what the heck they want.

So IF IF IF there are big time investors out there who want to seriously buy their way all the way to the elite and spend the money to stay there rather than "step down and invite others to invest" then the free for all competition planned will be ideal for them to jump in and make their clubs true Superleague clubs, or alternatively for clubs who don't have the money and can't atttract a big investor to just go back to being a "community club" and stop bleating about "building for SL" and moaning about "no P & R" etc etc.

I'd love so se Andy Burnham put £2,000,000 a year into Leigh for the next 20 years and Mike Smith and his mates to return to keighley and match that.

As you say - it's a Superleague open house now - time for investors to put up or shut up.....

#69 keighley

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 01:07 PM

You wish.

The Superleague clubs are going to do an about face??

 

Well Batley are a DR club who are also a top echelon Championship club and so may be in this expanded triple 8 fandango. Do you think Huddersfield would allow their players to play for Batley if they thought they could end up in the top tier as a direct rival to them?

 

Maybe they would have second thoughts, scrap that Dr agreement and link up with a CC1 club who are less of a threat to them?

 

I,m certainly not sure of what might happen but it's certainly something to consider.  SL clubs could be helping teams who might replace them. I'm sure they would not be too keen to do that.



#70 The Parksider

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 01:18 PM

Well Batley are a DR club who are also a top echelon Championship club and so may be in this expanded triple 8 fandango. Do you think Huddersfield would allow their players to play for Batley if they thought they could end up in the top tier as a direct rival to them?

Batley do not want to be in Superleague, they have said so. Batley cannot afford to be in Superleague. Their accounts say so.

#71 thundergaz

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 01:39 PM

Well Batley are a DR club who are also a top echelon Championship club and so may be in this expanded triple 8 fandango. Do you think Huddersfield would allow their players to play for Batley if they thought they could end up in the top tier as a direct rival to them?

Maybe they would have second thoughts, scrap that Dr agreement and link up with a CC1 club who are less of a threat to them?

I,m certainly not sure of what might happen but it's certainly something to consider. SL clubs could be helping teams who might replace them. I'm sure they would not be too keen to do that.


The teams that are partnered with SL clubs either don't want SL or can't afford it that's why they have partnered up to save money or in some cases save themselves from going bust.

#72 keighley

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 01:54 PM

After your debacles of criticising the licensing people for not guaranteeing the financial strength of Clubs in SL when they actually DID down rate them, then suggesting the London SL academy could easily close with no effect because kids could develop equally well at CC1 clubs or travel 200 miles, I think you have an excellent point here.

The plans aim to give an elite eight clubs all the priveliges of an even more elite competition with bigger crowds. It cuts the rest adrif to do what the heck they want.

So IF IF IF there are big time investors out there who want to seriously buy their way all the way to the elite and spend the money to stay there rather than "step down and invite others to invest" then the free for all competition planned will be ideal for them to jump in and make their clubs true Superleague clubs, or alternatively for clubs who don't have the money and can't atttract a big investor to just go back to being a "community club" and stop bleating about "building for SL" and moaning about "no P & R" etc etc.

I'd love so se Andy Burnham put £2,000,000 a year into Leigh for the next 20 years and Mike Smith and his mates to return to keighley and match that.

As you say - it's a Superleague open house now - time for investors to put up or shut up.....

 

 Well, "debacle", was your word in an effort to denigate my posts so i'm not putting too much credence on that.

 

The facts are that the licencing committees examined the finances of clubs, which later failed distastrously, and gave them a licence as good to go in SL, whether it was an a,b or c licence. The fact is they passed them as being fit to have  SL licence.

 

Gary Purdham came through junior league in Cumbria, a Cumbrian semi pro club and ended up captaining London in SL for a number of years. There were others too who went the north to south route so why  could it not work in reverse. Then there are the hundreds who went from Cumbria junior league to Yorks and Lancs and the conveyor belt is still running.

 

The top eight could well be Catalans, Huddersfield, Hull, Leeds, Saints, Wakefield, Warrington and Wigan.

 

This will leave some serious investors at Salford, Widnes, Bradford, Fev, Hull KR and London sitting on the outside looking in. This leaves some of them at risk of falling out of the top tier altogether and Cas might also fall out of the top tier.I think the London team will be exhibit one for the drop and that will mean an even smaller geographical spread.

 

On the other hand Salford, Bradford and Widnes might might just permanently displace some of that top eight given the range of their ambition. Fev and Fax might just crash the party also.

 

You might just end up with some of your elite having to stop moaning and go back to being village clubs or whatever derogatory label you want to paste on them.

 

And that dos'nt even factor a complete new player like Toulouse into the equation.

 

The top eight had better be very sure of their ability to remain there if they vote for this or else they might suffer the same fate as the turkeys who voted for Christmas.



#73 keighley

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 01:57 PM

Batley do not want to be in Superleague, they have said so. Batley cannot afford to be in Superleague. Their accounts say so.

 

 Well under this format they might get promoted there whether they like it or not. If they and others then refuse the promotion it will throw this whole scheme into disrepute from the get go.



#74 keighley

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 01:59 PM

The teams that are partnered with SL clubs either don't want SL or can't afford it that's why they have partnered up to save money or in some cases save themselves from going bust.

 

 I understand that but in this new format they just might find themselves in a positiion whereby they gain promotion. What to do then ?



#75 thundergaz

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 02:15 PM


I understand that but in this new format they just might find themselves in a positiion whereby they gain promotion. What to do then ?


I could be wrong but I think SL2 will be made up of teams that either have the ambition and finances now for SL like fev.fax eagles and toulouse or future developing teams who have the ambition for SL but are not ready yet. ( I don't know who that would bring maybe the expansion teams) like the 2 Wales teams skolars etc.

Edited by thundergaz, 10 May 2013 - 02:16 PM.


#76 Rascal Bongo Stork

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 02:35 PM

 I understand that but in this new format they just might find themselves in a positiion whereby they gain promotion. What to do then ?

 

I would think you'd only stand a chance of finishing in the top 4 of the promotion/relegation group would be by splashing some cash. Batley arent going to do that so it's very unlikely. And if they do, shock horror, get promotion then all it would mean would they'd have 5 or 6 paydays in SL1 the next season before ending up back in the promotion/relegation group. Hardly the end of civilisation as we know it in the Heavy Woolen



#77 Terry Mullaney

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 02:38 PM

It isn't. It's not superior to SL. But it's not inferior either. It's different.

It's blokes playing RL. To me, that's a good thing if it's tick and pass in the park or GB vs Australia in an Ashes decider.


Couldnt agree more Steve, and it's everyone's prerogative to prefer one more than the other. It doesn't make it superior nor inferior and to be fair no one that I know has claimed that Championship RL is better standard than SL, merely a personal preference which I believe is allowed in a free country.

Edited by Terry Mullaney, 10 May 2013 - 02:49 PM.

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#78 keighley

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 02:55 PM

I would think you'd only stand a chance of finishing in the top 4 of the promotion/relegation group would be by splashing some cash. Batley arent going to do that so it's very unlikely. And if they do, shock horror, get promotion then all it would mean would they'd have 5 or 6 paydays in SL1 the next season before ending up back in the promotion/relegation group. Hardly the end of civilisation as we know it in the Heavy Woolen

 

I am not so sure. Batley have given several SL sides a hard time in the Challenge Cup in recent seasons and at least one of those, the giants, are currently a top four club. They have a SL standard coach and SL players on DR. In this compeition Batley would not be playing top four clubs but the dregs of SL, who are not exatcly defensive behemoths.

 

I would think they would immedialtely be a yo yo club as you suggest especially since I would imagine any DR players would be withdrawn in quick order, especially for the fixtures against the Giants.

 

This proposed new format has some serious anomalies that need ironing out before it has any chance of being successful.



#79 keighley

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 03:02 PM

I could be wrong but I think SL2 will be made up of teams that either have the ambition and finances now for SL like fev.fax eagles and toulouse or future developing teams who have the ambition for SL but are not ready yet. ( I don't know who that would bring maybe the expansion teams) like the 2 Wales teams skolars etc.

 

 I could be wrong also because the whole thing is confusing to me but for Batley to be in the top four of the Championship and so qualify for the middle eight battling for a SL place is highly possible. If they don't want it and withdraw, who are going to replace them Warrington A, sorry i meant Swinton.

 

If they are looking for four teams with SL level finances from the Chapionship, i think they will be greatly disappointed and the whole format will collapse from it's own deficiencies.



#80 Rascal Bongo Stork

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Posted 10 May 2013 - 03:10 PM

but surely the club's that have been clamouring for inclusion in the SL will step up from their current pay levels, Batley will still be resolutely semi pro. So you'd have 4 fully pro teams drop from SL, you'd have the 2 clubs that had already dropped out of SL,you'd have, perhaps, Toulouse - also fully pro. You might have a fully pro Featherstone and the likes of Halifax&Sheffield easily outpaying whatever Batley could offer. Batley's chances of even getting in the top 4 of SL2 are going to be a much tougher ask than they are in the Championship and even if they made it do you think they could week in week out rack up wins in the promotion/relegation group? No chance. But...if they did, like I say - it'd be a 11 game sojourn in SL1 and back to business as usual. Yo yo club, no way.






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