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London Broncos to move in with Barnet FC?


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#61 Pottsy

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 07:34 AM

it wont cost much cash. The local gov' are pretty much happy to give it away. Purchase on the cheap and then secure investment over the next few years to build


I'd love to see it happen and it appears that Hector McNeil is in favour of creating a London Rugby League hub too.

#62 keighley

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 01:53 PM

A 5K stadium would seem cavernous for them in their current division :-(

 

Quite. They had a crowd of 1200 against a top half SL club with a quarter final cup spot at stake last night.



#63 keighley

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 01:57 PM

Just to be clear, an appeal panel set up by the RFU does not set legal precedent. It certainly does not have jurisdiction over the game of rugby league.

 

I thought London Welsh took the RFU to court and won a legal victory there, in which case, it would be a legal precedent that could be quoted in any similar situation arising in RL.



#64 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 01:57 PM

Quite. They had a crowd of 1200 against a top half SL club with a quarter final cup spot at stake last night.


Its safe to say crowds will improve once the club moves away from RU HQ and relegation comes back.

#65 keighley

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 02:11 PM

I'd love to see it happen and it appears that Hector McNeil is in favour of creating a London Rugby League hub too.

 

Does anyone have any information about a possible asking price because, as I understand it there are 40 acres with revenue producing rents from athletics and RU clubs. If it could be done it could be a triple facility for Broncos, Skolars and the RFL for an international team and cup final team training base.

 

I agree it would be a dream scenario for league in the Capital but the cost , as always, is the key.



#66 Jeff Stein

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 02:29 PM

I thought London Welsh took the RFU to court and won a legal victory there, in which case, it would be a legal precedent that could be quoted in any similar situation arising in RL.

 

You can think that but it simply isn't true



#67 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 02:41 PM

You can think that but it simply isn't true


Why Jeff? What about the Bosman ruling? This had a profound impact on soccer and RL

#68 Just to be clear

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 02:45 PM

I thought London Welsh took the RFU to court and won a legal victory there, in which case, it would be a legal precedent that could be quoted in any similar situation arising in RL.

Just to be clear, so did I! Methven Hornet was correct though, an RFU appeals panel sided with them before it needed to get to that point.

#69 keighley

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 03:05 PM

You can think that but it simply isn't true

 

The decision re London Welsh was made by an INDEPENDENT panel consisting of three QCs.

 

It has been commented on thus " The COURTS and independent panels will be prepared to overturn decisions impacting on promotion and relegation". Source Littleton Chambers.com. 19.7.2012

 

     The question I have therefore is, can judgements made by eminent lawyers ( QCs) seated on independent tribunals or boards of enquiry be cited in court cases in regards to precedents ?

 

If not, then I stand corrected as the judgement was not a court of law but an Independent panel.



#70 Manx RL

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 03:11 PM

The decision re London Welsh was made by an INDEPENDENT panel consisting of three QCs.

It has been commented on thus " The COURTS and independent panels will be prepared to overturn decisions impacting on promotion and relegation". Source Littleton Chambers.com. 19.7.2012

The question I have therefore is, can judgements made by eminent lawyers ( QCs) seated on independent tribunals or boards of enquiry be cited in court cases in regards to precedents ?

If not, then I stand corrected as the judgement was not a court of law but an Independent panel.


You stand corrected.
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#71 slowdive

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 03:26 PM

Does anyone have any information about a possible asking price because, as I understand it there are 40 acres with revenue producing rents from athletics and RU clubs. If it could be done it could be a triple facility for Broncos, Skolars and the RFL for an international team and cup final team training base.
 
I agree it would be a dream scenario for league in the Capital but the cost , as always, is the key.

As someone has already said, the council may not be looking for a huge amount. At the moment local authorities are shedding themselves of anything and everything unfortunately, but that does offer a possible opportunity. A lot of 'local authority' leisure centres are now run by private companies, I'm a member of one.
"At times to be silent is to lie. You will win because you have enough brute force. But you will not convince. For to convince you need to persuade. And in order to persuade you would need what you lack: Reason and Right."

#72 Chronicler of Chiswick

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 04:33 PM

You could probably buy Yorkshire for the cost of 40 acres in London - I doubt if the council could legally get away with selling it for less than the market price. A long term lease might be another matter and would get the running costs off the council balance sheet.



#73 Jeff Stein

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 05:42 PM

The question I have therefore is, can judgements made by eminent lawyers ( QCs) seated on independent tribunals or boards of enquiry be cited in court cases in regards to precedents ?.

 

No, because they are not courts. They are not established by the state, but by an independent organisation for the administration of that independent organisation.

 

Their decisions can, however, potentially be reviewed by the Courts. That was the loaded gun that London Welsh held as clearly the RFU had not applied its own rules equitably.



#74 THE RED ROOSTER

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Posted 11 May 2013 - 06:54 PM

The Broncos have nothing to fear from Saracens - possibly the only team in the top division of either code to haemorrhage more money than them on annual basis.

 

A post I would expect from an ex- Harlequins RU Season ticket Holder.

 

Saracens though ilustrate my point, through having Allianz Park the club aims to break even within 3 years. How is this so through the concept of scarcity. When Saracens played in Watford in a 17,000 seat stadium crowds averaged 6-7,000 and were going down for a winning side. Having moved to the 10,000 Allianz Park the club sells out each home match.

 

If you play at a ground which has a large capacity there is never a problem in getting a ticket so you do not have to buy in advance to secure your seat. This applies just as much to London Broncos as it did for Saracens and also to other Rugby League clubs whose attendances are always derided on this board. With a 15,000 capacity Stoop you may intend to come to the game but since you do not need to buy in advance you end up as being a walk-up. Between the time you decide to go and matchday there are lots of things that could happen, Domestic issues, the weather, Club form and the fact you may just not feel like it so you may end up not going- which costs the club. Last night the majority of crowd turned up about 10 mins before the start.

 

Now with a 6,000 capacity stadium if you cannot sell out for the visit of Wigan or Leeds there really is no hope. But since you have brought Saracens into it, It would be a good idea for Gus Mackay to have a chat with Saracens CEO Edward Griffiths to see if he could pick up some ideas. as someone who is involved with other sports as well as RL I feel this is something that Rugby League does not do i.e. see what someone else is doing, do your research ,and see if it would work for you. It's no good the likes of Jon Wilkin lamenting the poor marketing of the sport you have to get out there and seek out examples of best practice which is something this insular sport is not good at.

 

Are the majority of the Bronco's fan base in West London?..

No, though at the time of the original move to the Stoop back in 1997, it was said London Broncos were a West London Club purely on the basis that the ancestor of the club was Fulham RLFC. Unlkike other Rugby League teams, London Broncos is a regional club that I know has fans in Bournemouth, Wolverhampton, Swindon, Hampshire, Kent, Buckinghamshire and even the marshlands of Essex. That's why the club's fans overwhelmingly approved of 3.00pm on a Saturday as matchday in an online poll in 2006 and why Friday nights don't work - I got back home at 23:50 last night BTW

 

I do not agree with it but the conventional wisdom is that a 5 to 7,000 average is needed for a SL club to be financially stable. This could not be achieved in s stadium as small as this ?

 

If the Broncos do this and suceed, i don;t ever want to hear about Featherstone, Leigh, Halifax or anybody else not being able to generate gates big enough to survive in SL. I hope the Broncos do suceed in this small stadium to put those objections to rest. 

 

Everyone in the game seems to agree that money is tight, everyone wants to bring back meaningful P&R by bridging the gap between part-time and full time clubs but few advocate the logical answer of lowering the salary cap and more evenly distributing TV funding but that would be a different thread.

 

For the Broncos to be a success it need to be a club that cuts it's cloth according to it's keep and a club that can create the marketing nirvana of having demand for tickets oustripping the available capacity. With a smaller stadium this is achievable.

 

When this situation arises two things happen either separately or together, First as with Warrington's ground capacity is extended and secondly ticket prices rise. London would generate more money that a similar sized club in the North should this be achieved and would attract investment as losses would be kept to a minimum.

 

You would argue that championship clubs have stagated because of no chance of promotion. i would argue London and Salford, two strategically important clubs have both stagnated during the franchise era because they have bounced along the bottom of the franchised league with dwindling support in a big stadium. So P&R I am all for it.


I am an oil trader and successful at that but, but marketing, finance, business management, human resources etc are not my strengths


 

 

David Hughes to Ian Lenagan Page 134 - A Pastel Revolution - Fletcher and Gordas - 2006

 

Being an outsider, it is easiest to see what is wrong with the sport. It's a fantastic sport that has been undersold and under-marketed  because people who run it probably want to keep it the way it is

 

 

Dr Marwan Koukash to Joanthan Lieu. Sunday Telegraph 9th March 2014

 

 


#75 keighley

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 01:00 PM

No, because they are not courts. They are not established by the state, but by an independent organisation for the administration of that independent organisation.

 

Their decisions can, however, potentially be reviewed by the Courts. That was the loaded gun that London Welsh held as clearly the RFU had not applied its own rules equitably.

 

Thank you for the information. I appreciate the reply.



#76 keighley

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 01:17 PM

A post I would expect from an ex- Harlequins RU Season ticket Holder.

 

Saracens though ilustrate my point, through having Allianz Park the club aims to break even within 3 years. How is this so through the concept of scarcity. When Saracens played in Watford in a 17,000 seat stadium crowds averaged 6-7,000 and were going down for a winning side. Having moved to the 10,000 Allianz Park the club sells out each home match.

 

If you play at a ground which has a large capacity there is never a problem in getting a ticket so you do not have to buy in advance to secure your seat. This applies just as much to London Broncos as it did for Saracens and also to other Rugby League clubs whose attendances are always derided on this board. With a 15,000 capacity Stoop you may intend to come to the game but since you do not need to buy in advance you end up as being a walk-up. Between the time you decide to go and matchday there are lots of things that could happen, Domestic issues, the weather, Club form and the fact you may just not feel like it so you may end up not going- which costs the club. Last night the majority of crowd turned up about 10 mins before the start.

 

Now with a 6,000 capacity stadium if you cannot sell out for the visit of Wigan or Leeds there really is no hope. But since you have brought Saracens into it, It would be a good idea for Gus Mackay to have a chat with Saracens CEO Edward Griffiths to see if he could pick up some ideas. as someone who is involved with other sports as well as RL I feel this is something that Rugby League does not do i.e. see what someone else is doing, do your research ,and see if it would work for you. It's no good the likes of Jon Wilkin lamenting the poor marketing of the sport you have to get out there and seek out examples of best practice which is something this insular sport is not good at.

 

No, though at the time of the original move to the Stoop back in 1997, it was said London Broncos were a West London Club purely on the basis that the ancestor of the club was Fulham RLFC. Unlkike other Rugby League teams, London Broncos is a regional club that I know has fans in Bournemouth, Wolverhampton, Swindon, Hampshire, Kent, Buckinghamshire and even the marshlands of Essex. That's why the club's fans overwhelmingly approved of 3.00pm on a Saturday as matchday in an online poll in 2006 and why Friday nights don't work - I got back home at 23:50 last night BTW

 

 

Everyone in the game seems to agree that money is tight, everyone wants to bring back meaningful P&R by bridging the gap between part-time and full time clubs but few advocate the logical answer of lowering the salary cap and more evenly distributing TV funding but that would be a different thread.

 

For the Broncos to be a success it need to be a club that cuts it's cloth according to it's keep and a club that can create the marketing nirvana of having demand for tickets oustripping the available capacity. With a smaller stadium this is achievable.

 

When this situation arises two things happen either separately or together, First as with Warrington's ground capacity is extended and secondly ticket prices rise. London would generate more money that a similar sized club in the North should this be achieved and would attract investment as losses would be kept to a minimum.

 

You would argue that championship clubs have stagated because of no chance of promotion. i would argue London and Salford, two strategically important clubs have both stagnated during the franchise era because they have bounced along the bottom of the franchised league with dwindling support in a big stadium. So P&R I am all for it.

 

A fellow traveler. I have many times advocated a reduction of the salary cap by itself or as you prefer, a reduction and redistribution or revenues. Whilst I would not presume to speak for him I think I am correct in saying that Parksider also agrees that a salary cap reduction to make SL more affordable for the lower echelon clubs is a good idea.

 

Sometimes, I think that RL tries to operate at a bigger level than it is capable of and we need to revamp things to suit the realties of the sporting niche that we occupy.



#77 gingerjon

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 05:35 PM

A post I would expect from an ex- Harlequins RU Season ticket Holder.
 
Saracens though ilustrate my point, through having Allianz Park the club aims to break even within 3 years.
 
You would argue that championship clubs have stagated because of no chance of promotion. i would argue London and Salford, two strategically important clubs have both stagnated during the franchise era because they have bounced along the bottom of the franchised league with dwindling support in a big stadium. So P&R I am all for it.

I've never been a Harlquins RU season ticket holder. I went to a few games when I lived near Twickenham. Not quite the same thing!

Saracens lost £5.8m in 2011/12. Moving to Allianz Park might address some of that profligacy but they're certainly not a model that any sane club should be following.

The P&R/franchise debate is interesting for London. We never finished in a relegation spot in the SL era to test it but there was always a belief that being relegated would kill the club - then in the franchise era there came the belief that we were coasting with nothing ever to play for. I see it that in both eras the club never consistently did enough on the field or off -- and have been mostly shambolic regardless of whether there's been a trapdoor at the foot of the league table or not.
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#78 statties

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 07:37 PM

the issue regarding London Welsh not being promoted at first was due to facility standards of Old Deer Park. When the club made a deal to play in Oxford where the ground would meet standards, this is when the RFU got itself into a sticky situation.

 

Had the RFU stated in the competition by laws that Newcastle Falcons are exempt from relegation then not even a court of law can overturn this.

 

So if any new Super League bye-laws state that London and Catalans cannot be relegated, then they are safe from any court action much like they would be if the SL became a closed shop of however many teams. 



#79 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 08:10 PM

the issue regarding London Welsh not being promoted at first was due to facility standards of Old Deer Park. When the club made a deal to play in Oxford where the ground would meet standards, this is when the RFU got itself into a sticky situation.

Had the RFU stated in the competition by laws that Newcastle Falcons are exempt from relegation then not even a court of law can overturn this.

So if any new Super League bye-laws state that London and Catalans cannot be relegated, then they are safe from any court action much like they would be if the SL became a closed shop of however many teams.


I'm in favour of French clubs being exempt but not London Broncos. The threat of relegation brings the best out on the Broncos, and anyhow a relegation may not be a bad thing. The club were never promoted on merit at the start of SL but almost managed just before SL started. A real promotion cements hardcore fans. There are now also sufficient other clubs around London maybe to take up the mantle

#80 statties

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Posted 12 May 2013 - 09:04 PM

I'm in favour of French clubs being exempt but not London Broncos. The threat of relegation brings the best out on the Broncos, and anyhow a relegation may not be a bad thing. The club were never promoted on merit at the start of SL but almost managed just before SL started. A real promotion cements hardcore fans. There are now also sufficient other clubs around London maybe to take up the mantle

 

Well I think they should be but we could go in circles for weeks/years discussing merits of our opinions. The point is that the league can make a decision that clubs are exempt from PnR and there is nothing a court of law can do to overturn that decision.