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#41 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 05:15 PM

What are you banging on about? How the hell do you know that?

I know a few people who have different clubs that they support. I know a person who used to support Rangers and now supports Celtic (an extreme example to be fair!) - I know a Spurs fan who is now a Man U fan and so on.


In your town there are many Liverpool and United fans who have been fans of that club since they were nippers. I'll bet less than 1% have switched allegiance (and you probably know this but wont admit it in case you offend the tiny antipromotion clique on here)

#42 Dave T

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 06:14 PM

In your town there are many Liverpool and United fans who have been fans of that club since they were nippers. I'll bet less than 1% have switched allegiance (and you probably know this but wont admit it in case you offend the tiny antipromotion clique on here)

no there isn't. As usual you are spouting nonsense. Where is my town? Sgain, what are you banging on about?

Why would i change my opinion so as not to offend people I have never met? I actually think you have genuine issues, or are simply the most arrogant person I have ever encountered.

Mental.

Edited by Dave T, 14 May 2013 - 06:31 PM.


#43 Ackydave

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 07:02 PM

Tony Smith is the only person publicly speaking sense on this issue. P&R can't return. It is a relic of the past that will destroy the development of players in this country, as well as make a weaker league where the gap between big and small clubs (which has narrowed dramatically since licensing came in) grow wider.

Yes, certain posters on here, who have self-interest in their own tin-pot championship clubs want to see P&R return, but at what cost? It will set the game back 20 years here. It will destroy any chance England have of ever catching Australia. But that's ok, cos Leigh and Fev will get a chance to be in SL for a season every few years, and put out squads with 12 b-grade Aussies each and get tonked by 50 points each week. Self interest>progress of the game hey.

If SL must make changes for sustainability, then reduce to 12 teams. Axe Cas and HKR, as they have the most well-documented financial problems, and ultimately, SL is already represented by other clubs in their areas.

But whatever happens, don't bring back P&R. It would be a disaster

I really don't know where to begin with this; so rather than beat about the bush may I throw one or two things into the discussion.

Firstly, I am very uneasy about the convoluted, complicated structures being proposed. I am a simple soul. I believe I'm like most simple sports fans in that I like to see simplicity and clear goals and targets. I used to think that it was only the Americans that could take a straight forward sporting challenge and then turn it into something only
Einstein's big sister could understand. I was obviously wrong.

Mind you, I know that I should have died out with the rest of the dinosaurs because I believe that a team coming top of the league should be regarded as the champions. You can have as many cups and play off systems as you like and call them what you will but it should be secondary to the achievement of winning a league.

As for Promotion and relegation...well...what can I say?

SL has been such a success that they can't even afford to run an under 20's. They've already had several years of "stability" and "development" and still are as far away from the Aussies as ever and they still see clubs going bust and plying their trade in grounds that have long needed repair and development - how much more time do they need?
The lack of P&R hasn't really helped that much has it?

I'm really impressed with the comments about promoted Championship clubs having to fill their teams with journeyman Aussies to survive. The SL (and even before SL) have set the standards on that one. I really do think that Championship teams shouldn't be lectured about what has become the norm in SL.

I believe it is time for the RFL to get a reality check. In the great scheme of things we're a minority sport. Yes we have a great "product" on the field but off it we're ineffectual. If we keep looking at only the large clubs then we'll slowly disappear up our own backsides in time.

We've started to develop the game all over the country. It's small scale but it's a promising start. What we really need is patience and competition we can all appreciate and enjoy.

#44 Garvers

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 07:05 PM

no there isn't. As usual you are spouting nonsense. Where is my town? Sgain, what are you banging on about?

Why would i change my opinion so as not to offend people I have never met? I actually think you have genuine issues, or are simply the most arrogant person I have ever encountered.

Mental.

 

It's pretty obvious Lobby's referring to Warrington.  

 

In which case he's right - most football fans in Warrington have traditionally either been United or Liverpool fans, with a sprinkling of City and Everton. No doubt it's probably changed a bit over the years, but I'm guessing not by much. 

 

There's no need to sound so offended at the idea that a Wire fan might actually be from Warrington - most are.  



#45 Dave T

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 10:32 PM

It's pretty obvious Lobby's referring to Warrington.

In which case he's right - most football fans in Warrington have traditionally either been United or Liverpool fans, with a sprinkling of City and Everton. No doubt it's probably changed a bit over the years, but I'm guessing not by much.

There's no need to sound so offended at the idea that a Wire fan might actually be from Warrington - most are.

it is an example of Lobby making statements that are just not true and nonsense.
Not a single one of the people who have changed footballing loyalties that i referred to are from Warrington.
Lobby likes to dismiss peoples opinions or judge them based on who they support or where they are from, yet proves time and again he knows nothing whatsoever about the people he judges.
Im not offended in the slightest that somebody may think Im from Warrington, its just when lobby makes one of his mad facts up and then provides a load of usually very wrong points to try and support his argument.

#46 Ant

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 10:42 PM

We had P&R for years
It was disastrous

We have had licensing for a handful of years

It has improved the competition for the better - increasing the quality of games and competitiveness of games and from week to week the games are no longer a foregone conclusion

It has improved the player pool immeasurably - no longer are lower level teams filled with journeymen Aussies & Kiwis but younger English players are given a better chance

It's improved the marketability of the game and allowed its expansion beyond the m62 (or rather the old Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway routes)

It has succeeded on every level that P&R had failed on.

#47 Just to be clear

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 11:29 PM

Just to be clear, we had the sort of strong leadership that Tony Smith is calling for last year. It got us the Stobart sponsorship deal, which the RFL pushed the clubs to support.

#48 JohnM

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 12:54 AM

We had P&R for years
It was disastrous

We have had licensing for a handful of years

It has improved the competition for the better - increasing the quality of games and competitiveness of games and from week to week the games are no longer a foregone conclusion

It has improved the player pool immeasurably - no longer are lower level teams filled with journeymen Aussies & Kiwis but younger English players are given a better chance

It's improved the marketability of the game

and allowed its expansion beyond the m62 (or rather the old Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway routes)

It has succeeded on every level that P&R had failed on.


Agreed

#49 Roy Boy

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 01:20 AM

Haven't read TS's bit but do think that P&R should be consigned to history.
For SL to move on it needs to grab hold of youngsters in their formative years 10+.
They are the future players and fans who will be shaping the game in the years ahead.
My son has now got 3 mates from school going to watch Hull FC (admittedly son has been indoctrinated by a zealous father) and they all ask why SL doesn't get the media coverage it deserves after 3 games!
The RL should spend millions on getting a top notch PR/Marketing team in place and the rest would follow.
Koukash is like a breath of fresh air and I really hope others start to speak out and follow his lead.
Bit drunk (so sorry if I'm off thread) :P :)
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#50 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 07:15 AM

We had P&R for years
It was disastrous

We have had licensing for a handful of years

It has improved the competition for the better - increasing the quality of games and competitiveness of games and from week to week the games are no longer a foregone conclusion

It has improved the player pool immeasurably - no longer are lower level teams filled with journeymen Aussies & Kiwis but younger English players are given a better chance

It's improved the marketability of the game and allowed its expansion beyond the m62 (or rather the old Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway routes)

It has succeeded on every level that P&R had failed on.


Nonsense on every point.

#51 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 07:18 AM

Haven't read TS's bit but do think that P&R should be consigned to history.
For SL to move on it needs to grab hold of youngsters in their formative years 10+.
They are the future players and fans who will be shaping the game in the years ahead.
My son has now got 3 mates from school going to watch Hull FC (admittedly son has been indoctrinated by a zealous father) and they all ask why SL doesn't get the media coverage it deserves after 3 games!
The RL should spend millions on getting a top notch PR/Marketing team in place and the rest would follow.
Koukash is like a breath of fresh air and I really hope others start to speak out and follow his lead.
Bit drunk (so sorry if I'm off thread) :P :)

What about youngsters in towns not in SL? The game will die there so you'll be left with a player pool restricted to those in SL.

If licensing is working why have you just signed an Aussie?

I think you might be a tad afraid of being relegated!

P.S. I agree about the bit regarding spend on marketing. I'd prefer a highly professional centralised marketing team to do the work for all teams

Edited by Lobbygobbler, 15 May 2013 - 07:20 AM.


#52 The Parksider

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 08:27 AM

Nonsense on every point.

This is a finely crafted argument Lobby?

#53 The Parksider

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 08:29 AM

Haven't read TS's bit but do think that P&R should be consigned to history.
For SL to move on it needs to grab hold of youngsters in their formative years 10+.
They are the future players and fans who will be shaping the game in the years ahead.
My son has now got 3 mates from school going to watch Hull FC (admittedly son has been indoctrinated by a zealous father) and they all ask why SL doesn't get the media coverage it deserves after 3 games!
The RL should spend millions on getting a top notch PR/Marketing team in place and the rest would follow.
Koukash is like a breath of fresh air and I really hope others start to speak out and follow his lead.
Bit drunk (so sorry if I'm off thread) :P :)

Not at all. Koukash engaging with the local population especially the schools is great.

#54 The Parksider

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 08:49 AM

We had P&R for years, It was disastrous

We have had licensing for a handful of years

It has improved the competition for the better
It has improved the player pool immeasurably
It's improved the marketability of the game and allowed its expansion beyond the m62
It has succeeded on every level that P&R had failed on.

I really agree with this post but IMHO you have missed the rest of the story out.

Under both the principles of licensing Leeds & Wigan followed before it came along, and Hull and Warrington met when it did come along and Catalans and Saints have met under licensing, it certainly has "worked" and it has improved matters.

Under licensing now Bradford have a new business minded board, and Wakefield have a possible new stadium so I'd hope it will work for them. Also Salford have the money and the owner has the drive to meet the licensing terms on all counts.

But you can see the problem. After what?? Seven years of licensing we have a six club Superleague.

Sure there's three clubs who remain "work in progress" after seven years but we've hit a point where we are looking at the next round of licenses and as it stands we can't fill 10 spots let alone 12 or 14.

OK you may say persevere with licensing as clubs will get there??? Not on the evidence I see?

London - can't get anywhere under licensing and even with RFL help are going backwards
Cas - No ground and the owner has given up and will allow team to disintegrate
HKR - owner also given up and will allow team to disintegrate
Widnes - Chairman steps down from the board and invites others to invest
Huddersfield - crowds gone nowhere in over six year a point made by the chairman!!!

One can only hope Featherstone and Halifax are up to filling the spots, but will they grow to be "A" grade licencees? Or just be propped up in the same way Cas, London, Widnes, Fartown and HKR are???

Maybe Toulouse can shore things up.

But whilst licensing has improved several clubs and is pushing a couple more to get there there are not enough resources for the others to have any hope of making the standards licensing sets, and so you see them talking "glass ceilings" and giving up.

Let's hope we aren't going to continue the debate on Licensing.v.P & R because IMHO neither works.

#55 Kenilworth Tiger

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 08:56 AM

Cas - No ground and the owner has given up and will allow team to disintegrate

Christ - we've got a game on June 8th, where are we going to play and can you point me to the press release showing about the owner having given up please
Now then, it's a race between Sandie....and Fairburn....and the little man is in........yeees he's in.

I, just like those Castleford supporters felt that the ball should have gone to David Plange but he put the bit betwen his teeth...and it was a try

Kevin Ward - best player I have ever seen

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The real Mick Gledhill is what you see on here, a Bradford fan ........, but deep down knows that Bradford are just not good enough to challenge the likes of Leeds & St Helens.


#56 The Parksider

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 09:03 AM

We've got a game on June 8th, where are we going to play and can you point me to the press release showing about the owner having given up please

Wheldon road, and the owner and CEO have said they are having to cut their "cloth" so they are giving up on chasing Superleage licensing criteria and looking to just stay afloat

Edited by The Parksider, 15 May 2013 - 12:13 PM.


#57 Dave T

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 09:30 AM

We can fill as many slots as we like.

 

Licensing as I see it was about having the best XX teams in one league. 

 

They don't all have to be A graded to be classed as a SL team.

 

If you are taking that stance then you could take that stance on pretty much any league in the world and find that the English Premier League is a 5 team league, the NRL is a 6 team league and so on.

 

The reason for having criteria is to encourage clubs to improve on key areas, if a team is struggling in one area, it doesn;t mean they are not a SL team.

 

We have 14 SL teams now - it is nonsense to say we are struggling to fill it etc. It may not be made up of teams of the standard we all want in a Perfect World, but then no league anywhere is, even hand-picked 10 team leagues.



#58 Kenilworth Tiger

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 09:34 AM

Christ - Cas haven't got a ground to meet the licensing requirements for an "A" grade.

Christ - Fulton is cutting player spending failing the meet the licensing requirements for an "A" grade.

Christ - Cas are moving backwards from the licensing requirements

Christ - Why change the context of the debate from licensing and is it working for Cas to post that?

when you start posting facts I'll come back to you
Now then, it's a race between Sandie....and Fairburn....and the little man is in........yeees he's in.

I, just like those Castleford supporters felt that the ball should have gone to David Plange but he put the bit betwen his teeth...and it was a try

Kevin Ward - best player I have ever seen

Posted Image

The real Mick Gledhill is what you see on here, a Bradford fan ........, but deep down knows that Bradford are just not good enough to challenge the likes of Leeds & St Helens.


#59 kioli

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 10:50 AM

We had P&R for years
It was disastrous

We have had licensing for a handful of years

It has improved the competition for the better - increasing the quality of games and competitiveness of games and from week to week the games are no longer a foregone conclusion

It has improved the player pool immeasurably - no longer are lower level teams filled with journeymen Aussies & Kiwis but younger English players are given a better chance

It's improved the marketability of the game and allowed its expansion beyond the m62 (or rather the old Lancashire and Yorkshire Railway routes)

It has succeeded on every level that P&R had failed on.

 

 

 

We can fill as many slots as we like.

 

Licensing as I see it was about having the best XX teams in one league. 

 

They don't all have to be A graded to be classed as a SL team.

 

If you are taking that stance then you could take that stance on pretty much any league in the world and find that the English Premier League is a 5 team league, the NRL is a 6 team league and so on.

 

The reason for having criteria is to encourage clubs to improve on key areas, if a team is struggling in one area, it doesn;t mean they are not a SL team.

 

We have 14 SL teams now - it is nonsense to say we are struggling to fill it etc. It may not be made up of teams of the standard we all want in a Perfect World, but then no league anywhere is, even hand-picked 10 team leagues.

 

Sensible posts.

 

Makes me wonder just what exactly is going on at the RFL if this is evident to people on the ground but not to them...



#60 The Parksider

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 12:15 PM

when you start posting facts I'll come back to you

Don't bother to come back to me just take the point in the right context. As far as chasing the licensing standards go Castleford are simply not.




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