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Tories Europe Implode


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#21 Trojan

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 03:46 PM

The Germans, in particular, are apparently extremely jealous of London's pre-eminence in the global markets for sharedealing and insurance.

 

Somewhere in a smoky room they and the French will be cooking up a scheme to "make it fairer" for all EU countries to have access to these financial sectors. You can bet your life they'll try to introduce quotas.

 

TBH I reckon we'd all be very sorry afterwards.  There are a lot of benefits from being in the EU.  But the biggest is that we have a say in what they decide. Once on the outside we'll lose that say but we'll still have to abide by their regulations if we want to trade with them. Plus of course in trade with the rest of the world we benefit from any benefits the EU can negotiate for us.  We are a small insignifcant island off the North West coast of Europe globally we'd have no influence at all once outside the EU.  All this talk of conspiracy by the Germans and French to "do us down" is the basis of the arguments. Bascially those who want us out want to be free to make as much money as possible out of moneyfor themselves. But the rest of us will be up ###### creek without a paddle.  But they don't care about that - they never have and they never will.


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#22 gingerjon

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 03:53 PM

TBH I reckon we'd all be very sorry afterwards.  There are a lot of benefits from being in the EU.  But the biggest is that we have a say in what they decide. Once on the outside we'll lose that say but we'll still have to abide by their regulations if we want to trade with them. Plus of course in trade with the rest of the world we benefit from any benefits the EU can negotiate for us.  We are a small insignifcant island off the North West coast of Europe globally we'd have no influence at all once outside the EU.  All this talk of conspiracy by the Germans and French to "do us down" is the basis of the arguments. Bascially those who want us out want to be free to make as much money as possible out of moneyfor themselves. But the rest of us will be up ###### creek without a paddle.  But they don't care about that - they never have and they never will.

As a general rule I find that those who get worked up by 'Brussels' also get worked up by every other level of government or officialdom.

 

So they rant about everything from how eurocrats want to straighten our bananas to how the local council won't sort out the potholes properly.

 

Every so often, like a stopped clock telling the right time twice a day, their directionless rage hits a target.


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#23 Steve May

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 05:06 PM

The loony right are just loony politicians. They get a significant concession with Cameron publishing the bill - albeit then not putting it forward but anyone could - and instead of shutting up and trying to see how on earth Labour and the Lib Dems can repond they shriek all the louder.

 

The right of the Tory Party aren't interested in what Labour or the Lib Dems think.  They believe in the purity of their position.  They believe that the only reason the Tories don't win every seat in Parliament is that they aren't ideologically pure enough

 

Cameron's mistake is to think he can ever get away with appeasing them.   He's wrong.  They need to be contained.  If they are even a chink of light they'll jump on it.  If he doesn't give them a referendum, they'll harp on about a referendum.  If he gives them a referendum, they'll campaign to win the referendum.   If they lose a referendum, they'll just regroup and start again.  They won't ever stop.

 

His second mistake is to be out of the country as this is all kicking off.  Tactically naive.  He'd be wise to lay off the foreign trips for a while.


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#24 Steve May

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 05:09 PM

The problem Cameron has, and I'm sure his electoral advisers are telling him this daily, is that it's the middle ground that wins elections.  Enthuse them and you win regardless of what those at the less central positions think.  Blair did it magnificently in 1997 and 2001, Cameron failed to do this and barely scraped through into a coalition against a very unconvincing and widely ridiculed PM in Brown. 

 

This is taken to be an iron law of general elections, but I'm not sure it is true at the moment.

 

If any party can harness even a small proportion of the disillusioned non-voters they could win a surprise landslide from the left or right, leaving everyone else triangulating helplessly in the middle.


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#25 Wolford6

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 05:44 PM

As a general rule I find that those who get worked up by 'Brussels' also get worked up by every other level of government or officialdom.

 

So they rant about everything from how eurocrats want to straighten our bananas to how the local council won't sort out the potholes properly.

 

Every so often, like a stopped clock telling the right time twice a day, their directionless rage hits a target.

It must break your heart to admit that I'm right.

:D


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#26 ckn

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 06:24 PM

This is taken to be an iron law of general elections, but I'm not sure it is true at the moment.

 

If any party can harness even a small proportion of the disillusioned non-voters they could win a surprise landslide from the left or right, leaving everyone else triangulating helplessly in the middle.

I see where you're coming from...

 

I'm a fairly middle-left voter and I haven't a clue who to vote for these days at Parliamentary level.  None of the big parties even come close to representing what I want.  This is the first time since I could legally vote that I probably wouldn't bother as none of them deserve my vote.  That said, if I had to use my vote in a destructive way to stop a Tory or UKIP candidate getting in then I'd probably toss a coin between Labour and the Lib Dems as not quite as bad as the other two.


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#27 Methven Hornet

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Posted 14 May 2013 - 07:51 PM

We had the UKIP wannabe councillor round knocking on doors canvassing* just before the recent election and I was in a fairly awkward mood so I asked him to give me an example or two of what the EU had done to us that was so bad.  I had hoped he could give one or two good examples, they do exist.  He started with "interfering with our rights to deport criminals like Abu Qatada", unfortunately that's the ECHR which is nothing to do with the EU.  He then told me that I was wrong and l should go check my facts.  That was a good point to say "goodbye" and shut the door on him.

 

The problem Cameron has, and I'm sure his electoral advisers are telling him this daily, is that it's the middle ground that wins elections.  Enthuse them and you win regardless of what those at the less central positions think.  Blair did it magnificently in 1997 and 2001, Cameron failed to do this and barely scraped through into a coalition against a very unconvincing and widely ridiculed PM in Brown.  The even bigger problem is that Miliband is just as unconvincing as Brown and isn't enthusing the middle ground.  The Lib Dems are about as electable as herpes and have absolutely no clue how to sell their Europhile stance.

 

In 1997, Blair had a whole raft of massive policies to bring in from fixing the NHS to minimum wage, all sold with brutal efficiency to the middle ground.  People were voting FOR something.  Cameron, Clegg, Miliband and Farage are all hiding their lack of any inspiring policies** behind campaigning AGAINST things.  (Clegg is just an annoying squeak just now so he's just against what Mumsnet tells him to be against hoping that someone out there still has an "I'm with Nick" t-shirt)

 

* to be fair to him, he was the only one who bothered.

** would it be more accurate to delete the word "inspiring"?

 

That is my main problem with UKIP, the 'Eurosceptic' press and the right-wing of the Tory party, and their main case against the EU. Their case is almost totally based upon myths, ignorance and downright lies. I don't know if this campaigner was an outright liar, but if he was using this example as his main campaigning point then you'd have thought he would have checked the reality of the situation.

 


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#28 JohnM

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 01:16 AM

I don't understand it either....especially as the polls show support for EU membership. It's not the city in my view..they have lots to lose by leaving. It's the shires and the stupid wing, augmented by those who would rather be in opposition than coalition.

I'd like to have seen Cameron kick the old farts out and let them join UKIP so that moderates like me could continue to support Cameron.

#29 tonyXIII

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 01:30 AM

I don't understand it either....especially as the polls show support for EU membership. It's not the city in my view..they have lots to lose by leaving. It's the shires and the stupid wing, augmented by those who would rather be in opposition than coalition.

I'd like to have seen Cameron kick the old farts out and let them join UKIP so that moderates like me could continue to support Cameron.

 

Which shows how out of touch Cameron is. Or how out of touch you are. ;)


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#30 JohnM

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 05:00 AM

Out of touch? Only to the extent that he hadn't contacted me for advice.

He needs to exercise some leadership. The polls would back him. Who needs fools like Nadine Doris?

#31 Trojan

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 07:24 AM

I don't understand it either....especially as the polls show support for EU membership. It's not the city in my view..they have lots to lose by leaving. It's the shires and the stupid wing, augmented by those who would rather be in opposition than coalition.

I'd like to have seen Cameron kick the old farts out and let them join UKIP so that moderates like me could continue to support Cameron.

 

What I don'tunderstand is all the fuss. According to a poll on Today, Europeam Membership does not even come in the top ten of people's concerns. But here it is centre stage again.  Somebody somewhere has an agenda. Someone somewhere wants us out. Who? Why?


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#32 gingerjon

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 07:50 AM

It must break your heart to admit that I'm right.
:D


I agree with you about the potholes.
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#33 Northern Sol

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 08:43 AM

What I don'tunderstand is all the fuss. According to a poll on Today, Europeam Membership does not even come in the top ten of people's concerns. But here it is centre stage again.  Somebody somewhere has an agenda. Someone somewhere wants us out. Who? Why?

Clearly lots of people want us out.



#34 ckn

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 08:49 AM

Nick Clegg accused of showing a "complete disdain" for the British public over EU vote.

 

Are these people serious?  I have far more contempt for politicians over the expenses scandal than something that's so far down the list of "must fix" items for the general public.


Arguing with the forum trolls is like playing chess with a pigeon.  No matter how good you are, the bird will **** on the board and strut around like it won anyway


#35 Methven Hornet

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 09:39 AM

I don't understand it either....especially as the polls show support for EU membership. It's not the city in my view..they have lots to lose by leaving. It's the shires and the stupid wing, augmented by those who would rather be in opposition than coalition.

I'd like to have seen Cameron kick the old farts out and let them join UKIP so that moderates like me could continue to support Cameron.

 

Isn't it the case, though, that a lot of the more determined Eurosceptics/Europhobics are in the group of MPs elected for the first time in 2010? They are the future of the Tory Party!


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#36 JohnM

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 10:31 AM

The future in that they will only be MPs for two more years?

#37 Methven Hornet

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 10:56 AM

The future in that they will only be MPs for two more years?

 

Perhaps.


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#38 Griff9of13

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 11:15 AM

I don't understand it either....especially as the polls show support for EU membership. It's not the city in my view..they have lots to lose by leaving. It's the shires and the stupid wing, augmented by those who would rather be in opposition than coalition.

I'd like to have seen Cameron kick the old farts out and let them join UKIP so that moderates like me could continue to support Cameron.

 

The problem with that, from Dave's point of view, is mid parliamentary term as we are now that would further erode his slender coalition majority. Of course the 2015 general election would rectify the situation once the defectors to UKIP lose their seats.


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#39 Maximus Decimus

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 04:18 PM

I'm not one to agree with Thatcher but on this issue I do, referenda are a device of dictators and demagogues.

 

I personally really dislike them, I think they let incredibly important issues be decided by people with no real understanding of the issues. They reduce complicated and important issues to whichever side can run the best campaign and can get their points across most often and hopefully trip the other side up. It has little to do with the actual issue itself.

 

The issue of whether we should be in Europe or not is an incredibly complicated one and not something I have a firm opinion on. After all, I'm a teacher, I don't know the ins and outs of the relationship between us and the EU and with the contradictory soundbites we hear from both sides, it's often hard to know what to believe. Despite this, I suspect I have a greater understanding of it than your average Brit, I have a politics A-level and I do follow politics relatively closely. Rather than being a case that the Great British public vote with full understanding of the facts, I suspect that swathes will vote because of either Europhobic reasons or because their party tells them to vote one way or the other.

 

It's also an irreversible decision once it's made. This is problematic because public opinion on something like Europe is so changeable. The decision to stay or leave could come down to the public feeling that month. However, it will be irreversible, if we leave they won't have us back because the public have decided they like them again 2 years down the line.

 

What I dislike about it most at the moment is the way that it is childishly being used by the politicians who want it. It's all about giving the Great British public their say on an important matter and anybody that doesn't want to do this, doesn't want to give the people their rightful say. It is pure populism and is going to back us into a referendum that I suspect none of the major parties actually want. If referenda were so great, we should have them all the time on every important issue.

 

I'd love to see the Tory MP's put the next budget to a referendum. After all, shouldn't the public get their say on such important matters?

 

Right that's my tuppence worth. I'm off to poll my class on what they'd like to do for the next 6 weeks.



#40 Steve May

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Posted 15 May 2013 - 04:23 PM

Nick Clegg accused of showing a "complete disdain" for the British public over EU vote.

 

Are these people serious?  I have far more contempt for politicians over the expenses scandal than something that's so far down the list of "must fix" items for the general public.

 

Yes, they are serious.  But you (and me) are irrelevant to them.  

 

This is an about ideological purity and maintaining control of the Conservative Party.   The real world is a distraction to them on this one.


That's me.  I'm done.





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