Jump to content


Rugby League World - Grand Finals Issue

RUGBY LEAGUE WORLD - THE GRAND FINALS ISSUE - OUT 17 OCT OR DOWNLOAD IT NOW!
Try our Fantastic 4-Issue Bundle Offer:
For just £14, a saving of 10% on the regular cover price, you’ll get:

The Grand Finals Issue (out 17 Oct) – Grand Final drama from both hemispheres plus Four Nations preview
The Four Nations Issue (out 21 Nov) – Fantastic coverage of the Four Nations tournament down under
The Golden Boot Issue (out 19 Dec) – A look back at the 2014 season plus the big reveal of the winner of the Golden Boot
The 2015 Season Preview Issue (out 23 Jan) – How will your team perform in 2015? We preview every club.


League Express

Podcast

Photo
- - - - -

Tories Europe Implode


  • Please log in to reply
51 replies to this topic

#41 Trojan

Trojan
  • Coach
  • 15,211 posts

Posted 15 May 2013 - 09:33 PM

I'm not one to agree with Thatcher but on this issue I do, referenda are a device of dictators and demagogues.

 

I personally really dislike them, I think they let incredibly important issues be decided by people with no real understanding of the issues. They reduce complicated and important issues to whichever side can run the best campaign and can get their points across most often and hopefully trip the other side up. It has little to do with the actual issue itself.

 

The issue of whether we should be in Europe or not is an incredibly complicated one and not something I have a firm opinion on. After all, I'm a teacher, I don't know the ins and outs of the relationship between us and the EU and with the contradictory soundbites we hear from both sides, it's often hard to know what to believe. Despite this, I suspect I have a greater understanding of it than your average Brit, I have a politics A-level and I do follow politics relatively closely. Rather than being a case that the Great British public vote with full understanding of the facts, I suspect that swathes will vote because of either Europhobic reasons or because their party tells them to vote one way or the other.

 

It's also an irreversible decision once it's made. This is problematic because public opinion on something like Europe is so changeable. The decision to stay or leave could come down to the public feeling that month. However, it will be irreversible, if we leave they won't have us back because the public have decided they like them again 2 years down the line.

 

What I dislike about it most at the moment is the way that it is childishly being used by the politicians who want it. It's all about giving the Great British public their say on an important matter and anybody that doesn't want to do this, doesn't want to give the people their rightful say. It is pure populism and is going to back us into a referendum that I suspect none of the major parties actually want. If referenda were so great, we should have them all the time on every important issue.

 

I'd love to see the Tory MP's put the next budget to a referendum. After all, shouldn't the public get their say on such important matters?

 

Right that's my tuppence worth. I'm off to poll my class on what they'd like to do for the next 6 weeks.

 

 

That's it in a nutshell though isn't it. If we vote to come out we'll be out for good. It's not the hokey cokey. In, out, in, out, shake it all about.  It took us years to get them to accept us.  But what if we vote to  stay in?  Will that shut the anti Europeans up - somehow I doubt it.  The big money - the city, the media bosses are behind this campaign. If they lose they'll just start agitating for another, and another and another. At the moment most of Europe is in recession, and not an attractive propositon. But surely when the Coal and Steel treaty was first signed most of Europe was recovering from the war and we refused to have any connection with them - which we later came to regret.  As Max says, these issues are too complicated and too clouded by prejudice stirred up by the right wing press. I'm pro EU.  I'm not sure that's the right thing to be, but until someone comes up with a cogent argument that I can understand as to why we should leave, I'll remain pro EU.


"Your a one trick pony Trojan" - Parksider 10th March 2013

#42 ckn

ckn
  • Admin
  • 16,946 posts

Posted 16 May 2013 - 08:20 AM

For gods sake lets get out ASAP:)))

CM

In the interests of educating me, who just can't see it, can you please let me know WHY we should be out ASAP?


Arguing with the forum trolls is like playing chess with a pigeon.  No matter how good you are, the bird will **** on the board and strut around like it won anyway


#43 gingerjon

gingerjon
  • Coach
  • 29,305 posts

Posted 16 May 2013 - 08:53 AM

In the interests of educating me, who just can't see it, can you please let me know WHY we should be out ASAP?

Isn't it obvious?
Cheer up, RL is actually rather good
- Severus, July 2012

#44 ckn

ckn
  • Admin
  • 16,946 posts

Posted 16 May 2013 - 09:04 AM

Isn't it obvious?

Furriners start at Dover?  Also, those people north of Cumbria and Northumberland.  And those people on the other side of the Severn Bridge by Bristol.  Don't get me started on the Irish.  In fact, anyone outside our county, or even town or street depending on what mood we're in.


Arguing with the forum trolls is like playing chess with a pigeon.  No matter how good you are, the bird will **** on the board and strut around like it won anyway


#45 Shadow

Shadow
  • Coach
  • 8,071 posts

Posted 16 May 2013 - 09:33 AM

For gods sake lets get out ASAP:)))

CM

As god doesn't exist can we stay in?
God Rides a Harley but the Devil rides a Ducati!

#46 Bedford Roughyed

Bedford Roughyed
  • Moderator
  • 5,375 posts

Posted 16 May 2013 - 10:50 AM

In the interests of educating me, who just can't see it, can you please let me know WHY we should be out ASAP?

 

We should pull out so those european workers will get sent home and stop working in our country.  (sent from my french villa as I work in Europe and like the open borders when they apply to me and my job).


With the best, thats a good bit of PR, though I would say the Bedford team, theres, like, you know, 13 blokes who can get together at the weekend to have a game together, which doesnt point to expansion of the game. Point, yeah go on!

#47 JohnM

JohnM
  • Coach
  • 20,349 posts

Posted 16 May 2013 - 07:56 PM

http://www.independe...rs-8619824.html



#48 gingerjon

gingerjon
  • Coach
  • 29,305 posts

Posted 17 May 2013 - 08:59 AM

http://www.independe...rs-8619824.html

 

Federal Europe.

 

Like it.


Cheer up, RL is actually rather good
- Severus, July 2012

#49 JohnM

JohnM
  • Coach
  • 20,349 posts

Posted 17 May 2013 - 02:56 PM

Federal europe a la francaise. :O



#50 Trojan

Trojan
  • Coach
  • 15,211 posts

Posted 18 May 2013 - 10:18 AM

Furriners start at Dover?  Also, those people north of Cumbria and Northumberland.  And those people on the other side of the Severn Bridge by Bristol.  Don't get me started on the Irish.  In fact, anyone outside our county, or even town or street depending on what mood we're in.

 


"Your a one trick pony Trojan" - Parksider 10th March 2013

#51 giwildgo

giwildgo
  • Coach
  • 4,048 posts

Posted 18 May 2013 - 07:26 PM

The problem with the Europe issue is that is a complex situation dumbed down for the general public on popularist issues such as immigration. There are serious debates to be had at some point in terms of the pros and cons of membership, but it is largely being used as a distraction by the right at present to divert attention from the persistent failure of centre-right policies to secure economic growth. A classic political mid term misdirection to direct the public away from the more pressing issues facing the country and the ineffective nature of the Government's policies in providing positive benefits since 2010. It's a typical holding pattern ready for 2015 - focus on something beyond that date and people will start focusing on the future rather than the problems of the present. The Coalition was always up against a significant challenge over the last couple of years, as there are conflicting ideologies preventing strong leadership from attacking the legacy of the global financial crisis in a coherent manner. It should be no surprise that the challenge has been insurmountable to date, as even a single party with a majority would have had a tough ride. Europe is fundamental to this situation however largely because it is a polarising issue that divides the Tory right and the Lib Dems like no other. Europe is purely being used as the means to dissolve the relationship and differentiate the parties for the next two years.

In terms of my general opinion on Europe, I think that the seeds of an exit have long been sowed. Rightly or wrongly our influence has been marginalised and diluted by our exclusion from the single currency and the expansion of membership. We have no realistic method of now pushing an agenda to meet the UK's interests without the Franco-Germanic Euro bloc support and their interests are clearly differing from ours in terms of moving towards political and monetary integration. There are benefits of being in Europe for the country, largely because it provides a brake on extremist nationalist policies, but we are deluding ourselves if we think it is being directed towards the UK's benefit. The Cameron renegotiation is purely a stalking horse to produce a political stand off with Europe so that when any such requests are inevitably rejected it leaves us with no choice but to leave.

Edited by giwildgo, 18 May 2013 - 07:31 PM.

Posted Image


oderint dum metuant


#52 Just Browny

Just Browny
  • Coach
  • 11,795 posts

Posted 18 May 2013 - 08:11 PM

The problem with the Europe issue is that is a complex situation dumbed down for the general public on popularist issues such as immigration. There are serious debates to be had at some point in terms of the pros and cons of membership, but it is largely being used as a distraction by the right at present to divert attention from the persistent failure of centre-right policies to secure economic growth. A classic political mid term misdirection to direct the public away from the more pressing issues facing the country and the ineffective nature of the Government's policies in providing positive benefits since 2010. It's a typical holding pattern ready for 2015 - focus on something beyond that date and people will start focusing on the future rather than the problems of the present. The Coalition was always up against a significant challenge over the last couple of years, as there are conflicting ideologies preventing strong leadership from attacking the legacy of the global financial crisis in a coherent manner. It should be no surprise that the challenge has been insurmountable to date, as even a single party with a majority would have had a tough ride. Europe is fundamental to this situation however largely because it is a polarising issue that divides the Tory right and the Lib Dems like no other. Europe is purely being used as the means to dissolve the relationship and differentiate the parties for the next two years.

In terms of my general opinion on Europe, I think that the seeds of an exit have long been sowed. Rightly or wrongly our influence has been marginalised and diluted by our exclusion from the single currency and the expansion of membership. We have no realistic method of now pushing an agenda to meet the UK's interests without the Franco-Germanic Euro bloc support and their interests are clearly differing from ours in terms of moving towards political and monetary integration. There are benefits of being in Europe for the country, largely because it provides a brake on extremist nationalist policies, but we are deluding ourselves if we think it is being directed towards the UK's benefit. The Cameron renegotiation is purely a stalking horse to produce a political stand off with Europe so that when any such requests are inevitably rejected it leaves us with no choice but to leave.

Decent analysis Giwildgo, agree with nearly all of that. With one important flaw. Actually, the French-German 'bloc' has never been weaker than it is now: Merkel and Hollande have almost nothing in common. We (the UK) share massive commmon interests with France (foreign policy, counter-terrorism, several cross-border issues) and with Germany (economic shrewdness, views on how the single market should be run) that we could easily be exploiting right now were it not for this paralysis and inability to engage.

Believe it or not, I'm someone who works close enough to the EU to see that there are massive flaws in the system as well as the incredible freedoms and positives attached to membership. Just like Canetman, I can move freely and transfer several rights with me (albeit not enough just now). The false borders that kept manufactured nation-states aside from each other for decades or hundreds of years are mostly down, and it's creating a European country that our forefathers could never have imagined (not just in Brussels, but across the towns and cities of the EU). UK exit won't stop or slow that down, but it may well affect how we're perceived (already with suspicion) and the extent to which others wish to engage with us. Not to mention the economic shot-in-the-foot that would be represented by preventing firms gaining access to the single market from the UK.

I can confirm 30+ less sales for Scotland vs Italy at Workington, after this afternoons test purchase for the Tonga match, £7.50 is extremely reasonable, however a £2.50 'delivery' fee for a walk in purchase is beyond taking the mickey, good luck with that, it's cheaper on the telly.