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Super League League Reconstruction

which of these 3 options

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Poll: Super League Format (129 member(s) have cast votes)

Which opition/format for Super league do you want from 2015 onwards?

  1. Voted Option 1 - Super League reverts to a 12-team competition (from 14) and a 10 or 12-team Championship, with one club promoted and relegated each year. (48 votes [37.21%])

    Percentage of vote: 37.21%

  2. Voted Option 2 - A two division Super League with each division comprising of 10 teams. (19 votes [14.73%])

    Percentage of vote: 14.73%

  3. Voted Opition 3 - Two divisions of 12 in Super League with teams playing each other one to provide 11 fixtures before spliting into 3 groups of 8 in mi-season then playing each other home & away to provide 14 more Matches. (62 votes [48.06%])

    Percentage of vote: 48.06%

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#421 The Parksider

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 02:22 PM

They already have relegated clubs who were't bottom, Widnes twice, once at the beginning of SL and once to protect Catalans who did actually come bottom despite three years lead time to plan for their entry to SL.

Which proves two things.

1. Central planning has allowed catalans to become one of the top six clubs.

2. Ensuring Catalans could not be relegated prevented any set back in their growth.

3. You can have all the lead time you want - you cannot grow a Superleague business outside Superleague.

The ideas clubs relegated from SL can "re-group" for SL in the championship or they can "ready themselves for Superleague" just are not proven by reality.

And so it remains a massive risk that demoting two SL clubs 2014 will destroy them as professional clubs and then demoting another four SL clubs the year after will also give them a hard kick in the nuts.

But somehow we are arguing demotion is erm......gooood?

#422 keighley

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 02:47 PM

Which proves two things.

1. Central planning has allowed catalans to become one of the top six clubs.

2. Ensuring Catalans could not be relegated prevented any set back in their growth.

3. You can have all the lead time you want - you cannot grow a Superleague business outside Superleague.

The ideas clubs relegated from SL can "re-group" for SL in the championship or they can "ready themselves for Superleague" just are not proven by reality.

And so it remains a massive risk that demoting two SL clubs 2014 will destroy them as professional clubs and then demoting another four SL clubs the year after will also give them a hard kick in the nuts.

But somehow we are arguing demotion is erm......gooood?

 

But the counter point to that is that it did Widnes no good either and they were not in bottom spot so did not deserve it.Your argument that clubs cannot be ready for SL when coming from the lower tier is refuted by all those current members of SL who manage to survive once promoted.

 

Demotion is not good but that;s the price you pay for failure in Sports as in life. The saving grace is that demoted teams can bounce right back because p and r is in place. it's up to them.

 

The counter point to the fate of relegated SL clubs is obviously that for the promoted Championship clubs, it will be a good thing and may stir the still waters of the SL pond and add some needed oxygen of change.



#423 The Parksider

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 03:27 PM

1. But the counter point to that is that it did Widnes no good either

2. Your argument that clubs cannot be ready for SL when coming from the lower tier is refuted by all those current members of SL who manage to survive once promoted.

1. So which club brings more to Superleague then Les Catalans or Widnes. Pick the latter and there's no point in debating any more.

2. Who were they and how did they stay up??

a. Hull FC with the MONEY a big following brought them?
b. HKR with the half a million a year MONEY Hudgell pumped into them?
c. Salford with the millions of MONEY wilkinson put in
d. Huddersfield with the millions of MONEY Davey puts in

I've given you a clue in terms of how promotion works in our game, it generally only works when you have millions to bridge the gap. For Hull the KC grew the crowds, they did it by growth.

There's no growth in the championships. And no money.

#424 bewareshadows

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 05:49 PM

I'm against the closed shop idea,  with an open shop the best will float to the top, the  worst to the bottom.


Edited by bewareshadows, 25 May 2013 - 05:49 PM.

Super League the only place in the world where people still believe that less competitors and a closed market to new competition will improve the quality of the product.

Even the Chinese and the Cubans gave up on these marxist principles years ago.


SL with a reduced number of competitors and a closed market = North Korea.

#425 TheBinman

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 01:03 PM

What's quite alarming in our game is the decline in crowds over the past few years I know we're not in great times but for me mainly its do with the current structure of the comp.
I'd like to see a 12 team super league with toulose given a 3 year licence top 6 playoff and bottom place going down and then go with a strong 8 team championship that could be full time with grand final winners going up but no relegation from this league. Underneath that 2 national leagues with 1 up 1 down anyone wishing to join the championship must apply thoughts?

#426 JohnM

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 01:14 PM

Alarming decline in crowds over the past few years? really?



#427 ckn

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 01:28 PM

And Toulouse would add to the average SL crowds?  Catalans get most of their away crowds from the UK because it's a once-a-year trip for fans, it'd have to be a pretty committed fan who'll do two foreign trips.

 

On the rest, it would just shift the locked-in ceiling a bit lower and creates a different group of angry clubs that feel slighted.  It also gives the Championship sides no incentive to improve their grounds and club as long as their competitors don't.


Arguing with the forum trolls is like playing chess with a pigeon.  No matter how good you are, the bird will **** on the board and strut around like it won anyway


#428 Keith T

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 01:32 PM

What's quite alarming in our game is the decline in crowds over the past few years I know we're not in great times but for me mainly its do with the current structure of the comp.
I'd like to see a 12 team super league with toulose given a 3 year licence top 6 playoff and bottom place going down and then go with a strong 8 team championship that could be full time with grand final winners going up but no relegation from this league. Underneath that 2 national leagues with 1 up 1 down anyone wishing to join the championship must apply thoughts?

 

Having experienced an 8 team league back in 1991 when each team played the other 4 times I would not wish that on any other clubs.   It was a complete turn-off for most fans of the 8 clubs stuck in there.


I remember when .............................

"It is impossible not to feel a twinge of sympathy for Workington Town, the fall guys this season for the Super League's determination to retain it's European dimension, in the shape of Paris. While the French have had every assistance to survive, the importance of having a flagship in a heartland area like West Cumbria has been conveniently forgotten." - Dave Hadfield - Independent 25th August 1996.


#429 keighley

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 02:24 PM

1. So which club brings more to Superleague then Les Catalans or Widnes. Pick the latter and there's no point in debating any more.

2. Who were they and how did they stay up??

a. Hull FC with the MONEY a big following brought them?
b. HKR with the half a million a year MONEY Hudgell pumped into them?
c. Salford with the millions of MONEY wilkinson put in
d. Huddersfield with the millions of MONEY Davey puts in

I've given you a clue in terms of how promotion works in our game, it generally only works when you have millions to bridge the gap. For Hull the KC grew the crowds, they did it by growth.

There's no growth in the championships. And no money.

 

You forgot Wakefield and Salford. both of whom had investors.

 

I'll give you a club how licencing works. it always works when the clubs have millions to keep them in SL. So it makes no difference jhow a club gets into SL, via p and r, or by being given a licence, once they get there they rely on investors. Looking at the championships, it looks Fev and Fax have investors already and if p and r is an option, who knows which other Championship teams might attract some. For you to say they don't exist is just as much wihful thinking as me saying they do. Only the return of p and r will flush them out or not.

 

As for the Catalans V Widnes argument, it;s not an either or scenario. Both clubs bring value to SL in different ways. Whether they stay in SL should be decided on the field of play or by the expansion of SL to keep them both at the table.

 

I think Catalans are a good thing and have been the saviour of French RL but their inclusion in the British league is only for the sake of expediency. A far better thing would be to have a French SL comprising 10 or more strong clubs, being to France what SL is to the UK.

 

Then there could be a European competiton between the two leagues a la WCC or Heineken cup in RU.

 

That would be way better than one or two French clubs keeping British clubs out of their own competition. but, for now, I say keep them in SL.



#430 Jim from Oz

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 02:29 PM

Look, running a RL comp is not rocket science. It's all very SIMPLE:

 

Super league

 

12 teams, 22 rounds (add a 23rd for Manchester magic weekend), top 5 playoff, GF winner is the champion, 12th placegetter is relegated to Championship.

 

Championship

12 teams, 22 rounds (add a 23rd for their own "magic" weekend at a 20,000-odd seat venue like headingly or Huddersfield), top 5 playoff, GF winner is the champion and promoted to Super League ASSUMING MINIMUM SUPER LEAGUE STANDARDS ARE MET, 12th placegetter is relegated to Championship 1

 

 

Championship 1

12 teams, 22 rounds (add a 23rd for their own "magic" weekend at a 10,000-odd seat venue like Salford or Leigh), top 5 playoff, GF winner is the champion and promoted to Championship ASSUMING MINIMUM CHAMPIONSHIP STANDARDS ARE MET, 12th placegetter stays.

 

Any new teams that want to be a pro RL comp can join Championship 1, or a semi-pro Championship 2 (or Championship 2 North and Championship 2 South) can eventually form.

 

Each comp has as its ABSOLUTE climax an exciting GF, where the winner becomes champion (and is promoted where applicable)

 

Reduced number of games = higher quality games = increased interest and crowds (which will make up for reduced revenue of less games)

 

Reduced number of games also mean games become more of an EVENT

 

Battles to get into Top 5 and/or avoid relegation will also increase interest 

 

NO bonus points, NO choose-your-playoff opposition or other ridiculous gimmicks; just keep EVERYTHING in the structure simple, so it becomes easy to follow for everyone - and it is LOGICAL

 

It's not hard !!!!!

 

Yours

Concerned Oz RL internationalist

 

PS: Any move to a 12x2 SL, which splits into 3x8 structure to be resisted AS IT IS CONFUSING AND UTTERLY LUDICROUS



#431 keighley

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 03:28 PM

Look, running a RL comp is not rocket science. It's all very SIMPLE:

 

Super league

 

12 teams, 22 rounds (add a 23rd for Manchester magic weekend), top 5 playoff, GF winner is the champion, 12th placegetter is relegated to Championship.

 

Championship

12 teams, 22 rounds (add a 23rd for their own "magic" weekend at a 20,000-odd seat venue like headingly or Huddersfield), top 5 playoff, GF winner is the champion and promoted to Super League ASSUMING MINIMUM SUPER LEAGUE STANDARDS ARE MET, 12th placegetter is relegated to Championship 1

 

 

Championship 1

12 teams, 22 rounds (add a 23rd for their own "magic" weekend at a 10,000-odd seat venue like Salford or Leigh), top 5 playoff, GF winner is the champion and promoted to Championship ASSUMING MINIMUM CHAMPIONSHIP STANDARDS ARE MET, 12th placegetter stays.

 

Any new teams that want to be a pro RL comp can join Championship 1, or a semi-pro Championship 2 (or Championship 2 North and Championship 2 South) can eventually form.

 

Each comp has as its ABSOLUTE climax an exciting GF, where the winner becomes champion (and is promoted where applicable)

 

Reduced number of games = higher quality games = increased interest and crowds (which will make up for reduced revenue of less games)

 

Reduced number of games also mean games become more of an EVENT

 

Battles to get into Top 5 and/or avoid relegation will also increase interest 

 

NO bonus points, NO choose-your-playoff opposition or other ridiculous gimmicks; just keep EVERYTHING in the structure simple, so it becomes easy to follow for everyone - and it is LOGICAL

 

It's not hard !!!!!

 

Yours

Concerned Oz RL internationalist

 

PS: Any move to a 12x2 SL, which splits into 3x8 structure to be resisted AS IT IS CONFUSING AND UTTERLY LUDICROUS

 

That's so logical, understandable and possible that it has no chance of happening.

 

The RFL want this 3 eights confusathon with the resultant six or so unchanging top teams playing at Old Trafford every year.



#432 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 04 June 2013 - 10:11 PM

Look, running a RL comp is not rocket science. It's all very SIMPLE:

Super league

12 teams, 22 rounds (add a 23rd for Manchester magic weekend), top 5 playoff, GF winner is the champion, 12th placegetter is relegated to Championship.

Championship
12 teams, 22 rounds (add a 23rd for their own "magic" weekend at a 20,000-odd seat venue like headingly or Huddersfield), top 5 playoff, GF winner is the champion and promoted to Super League ASSUMING MINIMUM SUPER LEAGUE STANDARDS ARE MET, 12th placegetter is relegated to Championship 1


Championship 1
12 teams, 22 rounds (add a 23rd for their own "magic" weekend at a 10,000-odd seat venue like Salford or Leigh), top 5 playoff, GF winner is the champion and promoted to Championship ASSUMING MINIMUM CHAMPIONSHIP STANDARDS ARE MET, 12th placegetter stays.

Any new teams that want to be a pro RL comp can join Championship 1, or a semi-pro Championship 2 (or Championship 2 North and Championship 2 South) can eventually form.

Each comp has as its ABSOLUTE climax an exciting GF, where the winner becomes champion (and is promoted where applicable)

Reduced number of games = higher quality games = increased interest and crowds (which will make up for reduced revenue of less games)

Reduced number of games also mean games become more of an EVENT

Battles to get into Top 5 and/or avoid relegation will also increase interest

NO bonus points, NO choose-your-playoff opposition or other ridiculous gimmicks; just keep EVERYTHING in the structure simple, so it becomes easy to follow for everyone - and it is LOGICAL

It's not hard !!!!!

Yours
Concerned Oz RL internationalist

PS: Any move to a 12x2 SL, which splits into 3x8 structure to be resisted AS IT IS CONFUSING AND UTTERLY LUDICROUS


Jim - nothing wrong with the 3x8 split. It isnt rocket science and has bags of excitement.

Btw there is nothing more ludicrous than the golden point and bye

#433 Jim from Oz

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 12:47 AM

Under my logical plan there is neither golden points nor byes.



#434 bobbruce

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 11:16 PM

Under my logical plan there is neither golden points nor byes.


Or enough games for clubs to survive.

#435 The Parksider

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 11:48 PM

Looking at the championships, it looks Fev and Fax have investors already and if p and r is an option, who knows which other Championship teams might attract some. For you to say they don't exist is just as much wihful thinking as me saying they do. Only the return of p and r will flush them out or not.

I'd agree if P & R had never been tried before, Since Superleague ran on P & R for 12 years I have the reality on my side that big investors do not want to waste their money on small clubs, those who maybe did have recently declared they have had enough.

You just cannot dismiss chunks of real history and real facts like this because it doesn't suit you.

What sort of an argument is it to say "lets try P & R and see if rich men want to pick up our small clubs"?

It just completely dismisses the 12 years that proved they didn't want to do this.

In 1996 it was a brave new world for RL and that was the best time for the game to have attracted the rich men. It didn't happen to the extent we needed it so why argue this process is yet to come, why deny history??

#436 Jim from Oz

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Posted 05 June 2013 - 11:51 PM

Or enough games for clubs to survive.

Then why don't clubs play 30 or even 40 rounds? Then they'll be awash with cash, presumably ....

 

No, more games = less intensity/less quality/greater disinterest and lower crowds.

 

Te NFL in the US has a short home-and-away series of rounds, yet they are awash with cash.

 

It's all about quality: quality games, intensity and above all ADMINISTRATION



#437 keighley

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 03:55 AM

I'd agree if P & R had never been tried before, Since Superleague ran on P & R for 12 years I have the reality on my side that big investors do not want to waste their money on small clubs, those who maybe did have recently declared they have had enough.

You just cannot dismiss chunks of real history and real facts like this because it doesn't suit you.

What sort of an argument is it to say "lets try P & R and see if rich men want to pick up our small clubs"?

It just completely dismisses the 12 years that proved they didn't want to do this.

In 1996 it was a brave new world for RL and that was the best time for the game to have attracted the rich men. It didn't happen to the extent we needed it so why argue this process is yet to come, why deny history??

 

Hudgell came to Hull KR when they were in Div 2. Salford spent several different seasons in the lower leagues and Wilkinson never wavered. Huddersfield were in the lower divisions and dAVY  was there with them. Crusaders started in CC1 with Samuels who took them all the way to SL. Leigh had an investor as did Barrow both of whom had to quit but still they did invest. Fev and Fax currently have investors.

 

Its you who are denying chunks of history that don t suit you. It s you who are denying history. We used to regulalry thrash the Aussies and British RL was way bigger than the Aussie version which, at senior level, was confined to one city. That is history but guess what, it didn t repeat itself. So, guess what, this time around p and r might just suceed. Maybe we have learned from our mistakes hence standards based p and r. Come on Parky, Dare to dream because, after all he who dares, wins.



#438 The Parksider

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 02:22 PM

Its you who are denying chunks of history that don t suit you.

Come on Parky, Dare to dream because, after all he who dares, wins.

There have been about 34 clubs in the Rugby League in the first 12 years of the game under P & R between championship and Superleague.

Only four of the 34 clubs have had a rich man with staying power take them over and boost them on and off the field.

There is therefore no evidence at all to back the wishful thinking that P & R returning will throw up a series of rich owners, indeed it's a myth promotion ever went away as rich men with little staying power have received promotion in recent years.

no need to reply, that's my final position..

#439 keighley

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 03:40 PM

There have been about 34 clubs in the Rugby League in the first 12 years of the game under P & R between championship and Superleague.

Only four of the 34 clubs have had a rich man with staying power take them over and boost them on and off the field.

There is therefore no evidence at all to back the wishful thinking that P & R returning will throw up a series of rich owners, indeed it's a myth promotion ever went away as rich men with little staying power have received promotion in recent years.

no need to reply, that's my final position..

 

Well, it's not up to you to dtermine when a thread will end. If there have been and only ever will be four men to take clubs forward to promotion and beyond, what are you and the other crusaders for the staus quo afraid of ?

 

Maybe you are wrong ? Its happened before. After all, we now know the earth is not flat and the sun is just a minor star.



#440 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 06 June 2013 - 05:14 PM

Well, it's not up to you to dtermine when a thread will end. If there have been and only ever will be four men to take clubs forward to promotion and beyond, what are you and the other crusaders for the staus quo afraid of ?

Maybe you are wrong ? Its happened before. After all, we now know the earth is not flat and the sun is just a minor star.


If I may

He hasn't said the thread has ended
Merely that has no wish to take further part in it.
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