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#221 The Parksider

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 11:20 AM

Rugby League is a sport, just like the rest of them.  It is a valid argument.
 
To claim that RL is different is slightly deluded, IMHO of course.

You know full well that above and below the split between premiership and championship in soccer are dozens of big clubs with big attendances and wealthy owners who run academies and produce their own players.

Do you really want me to list them to show you how P & R works in soccer because of this?

Do you really want me to go back over the fact SL clubs turn over from £3.2M to £7M. and that even the top championship club can only just manage £1M at a stretch to show P & R doesn't work in RL.

#222 keighley

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 12:35 PM

1.Nor would wednesday, sheff united, leicester, watford, birmingham, Ipswich, notts forest, etc the list is endless of BIG football clubs on BIG crowds all vastly BIGGER that anything RL has to offer who of course would not accept glass ceilings and no coverage.

There's no comparison at all none whatsoever, last year our second "division" average 1,000 fans a game, even soccer fourth tier dwarfs that and you have to go to non league to find a comparison.

2. The switch to the soccer argument always happens when the RL argument does not hold up and there is no comparison whatsoever. Do SKY pay for and show non league soccer in the lower reaches? Even if they did at least TV audience would actually recognise the game.

You lose the argument once you start switching it to another game altogether. RL is RL

 

To refuse to consider what makes a sport successful and to consider adapting any such successful conditions to our sport is to stick your head in the sand.

 

The most successful RL competition on the planet is the NRL and they are moving towards expansion, albeit by awarding new licences, but expansion nevertheless. In the UK P and r is the way to get to the top tier, but I am open to the argument that they just award more licences and increase the size and scope of the top tier that way.

 

In any event, I think your unchanging static vision of SL is due for a rude shock in the near future and not before time.



#223 keighley

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 01:07 PM

WHAT? Oxford.v.Castleford, HKR.v.Hemel, Gloucester.v.Wakefield Trinity?

These are dreamland arguments when small entrants to our game have never made such strides.

Doncaster set out over 60 years ago, to get where?????.

RL needs to make decisions on realities and not dreams, wake up man.

 

Swinton had over 100 years, to get where, to the top and back. Workington set out almost 70 years ago and have won the challenge Cup, the Champions cup, the Lancashire Cup and have been in SL only to regress. now they are on the move again and with the opportunities made available when p and r is reinstated have the chance, however slight, of regaining past glories.

 

Present SL powerhouses, Wigan, Hull KR, Hull, Widnes, Wakefield, London, Huddersfield, Bradford, Salford and Castleford have all spent varying amounts of time in the lower tiers.

 

Broughton Rangers once did the double.

 

Things are not unchangeable forever including SL.

 

For you therefore to dismiss the ambitions of Hemel and Gloucester and even Crusaders and South Wales, Gateshead or Skolars or even Oldham shows a remarkable lack of vision. No one is suggesting that such advances are going to happen tomorrow or even in the next ten years but, over time I can see no reason why Hemel could not be playing Wakefield in SL in a purpose built stadium, having captured the imagination of the local populace and attracting a decent attendance. the same goes for Oxford or Crusaders.

 

Gloucester might be more of a long shot than even those above mentioned teams but, given that Gloucester is a hotbed of rugby, albeit of the 15 a side variety, I don't see why they can't tap into that support over time.

 

This never, never, never argument is futile. the past is only a guide to the future. Once, no one had ever crossed the Atlantic to the Americas, no one had flown in a plane, defied the RU and got away with it. Australia was adamantly opposed to the Northern union. there was no chance of a world cup in RL with more than flour teams. I hope you get my drift.

 

There is something to be said for the what we have we hold arguments put forth by the SL supporters but equally, eventually change must come, and, I think, in the case of RL, we must change and expand our horizons or ultimately perish.

 

This is the case with soccer, with RU, with the NBA, NHL, NRL, NFL and even cricket and baseball and to pull in our horns and refuse to get on this expansionary model of progress demonstrated by all these various sports will be disastrous in the long term.



#224 Ponterover

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 01:16 PM

You know full well that above and below the split between premiership and championship in soccer are dozens of big clubs with big attendances and wealthy owners who run academies and produce their own players.

Do you really want me to list them to show you how P & R works in soccer because of this?

Do you really want me to go back over the fact SL clubs turn over from £3.2M to £7M. and that even the top championship club can only just manage £1M at a stretch to show P & R doesn't work in RL.

 

You're working on the set up as it is now, not as proposed.  Nobody thinks that a KPC team could go up now and compete. 

 

The 2X12 and 3X8 allows this gap to bridged by both increasing the crowds (due to there being something to play for and adding in 2 ex-SL teams) of the top KPC teams and allowing money men to spend more on players in full time environment. 

 

The future of Rugby League has potential to be exciting and massive if we embrace this change, your argument is old news and no longer relevant to the potential new structure.

 

Anyway, I'm a Wakey fan for the next hour and a half, if you're watching it, enjoy the game



#225 The Parksider

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 01:35 PM

To refuse to consider what makes a sport successful and to consider adapting any such successful conditions to our sport is to stick your head in the sand........
 
The most successful RL competition on the planet is the NRL..........

I just cannot believe you have written this.

The NRL has the same teams every year, and the rest are feeders.

The NRL also has loads of money so It can afford to allow another club in who in turn have loads of money and can compete.

I'm all for copying this over here. But I have obvious reservations.

You however never bother to include the obvious - the money.

#226 The Parksider

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 01:39 PM

The 2X12 and 3X8 allows this gap to bridged by both increasing the crowds (due to there being something to play for and adding in 2 ex-SL teams) of the top KPC teams and allowing money men to spend more on players in full time environment.

1. It's a gross assumption that by demoting two SL clubs their crowds will go up, and that crowds will go up across the championship, and that the four SL clubs also demoted will get bigger crowds too.

2. It's also a gross assumption that there will be players for the money men to buy as many decent players go back to Australia and we end up with a shortage. Where are all these players going to come from or are we just going to pay semi pro lads to turn pro?

I'm all for the idea. If it works which is a massive IF then great, if it doesn't then we can try to get back to reality albeit 19 long years after Superleague started.

Edited by The Parksider, 25 May 2013 - 01:51 PM.


#227 sweaty craiq

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 01:42 PM

You know full well that above and below the split between premiership and championship in soccer are dozens of big clubs with big attendances and wealthy owners who run academies and produce their own players.

Do you really want me to list them to show you how P & R works in soccer because of this?

Do you really want me to go back over the fact SL clubs turn over from £3.2M to £7M. and that even the top championship club can only just manage £1M at a stretch to show P & R doesn't work in RL.

 

I would hazard a guess that the turnover of Hull City is less than a third of QPR this season


Edited by sweaty craiq, 25 May 2013 - 01:42 PM.


#228 The Parksider

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 01:43 PM

1. For you therefore to dismiss the ambitions of Hemel and Gloucester

2. to pull in our horns and refuse to get on this expansionary model of progress demonstrated by all these various sports will be disastrous in the long term.

1. I don't think you even know what their ambitions are? You assume they have a plan to be Superleague clubs. If so tell me how it will work financially??

2. Set out the way you see the finances working for this "expansionary model of progress" please???

Because yet again you fail to put the pounds to the plan....

#229 The Parksider

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 01:50 PM

I would hazard a guess that the turnover of Hull City is less than a third of QPR this season

So what does that mean then???

Is that really an argument for P & R working in Superleague???

Like last time Hull City will have the players, the fans and the money to make a good go of it as they did last time. OK they went down but now they are popping back up again so P & R works in soccer. It doesn't in RL.

The maximum turnover in the Championship is a 1 Million, to just be on the bottom rung of Superleague takes £3.2million. SKY give you £1.2Million

Championship clubs are a £Million short of Superleague and several million short of competing.

Where's the money coming from then? Where's the players coming from, because Hull City will have hundreds to choose from.......

#230 keighley

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 01:57 PM

I just cannot believe you have written this.

The NRL has the same teams every year, and the rest are feeders.

The NRL also has loads of money so It can afford to allow another club in who in turn have loads of money and can compete.

I'm all for copying this over here. But I have obvious reservations.

You however never bother to include the obvious - the money.

 

The NRL has gone from a Sydney metropolitan based league to one with teams in Penrith, Newcastle, Brisbane, the Queensland Coast, Canberra and Auckland. They are considering bids from Perth, Gosford and, I think, another Queensland area.

 

They, indeed, are cashed up but now they have an independent governing body who control the money, not the clubs, and are willing to spread it thinner.

 

I would expect any new entrants to the NRL to be financially sound.

 

I would expect any new entrants to SL to be financially sound. Are these new proposals calling for automatic p and r or will any clubs who win promotion have to meet financial guidelines ? I suspect the latter. Similarly if new SL licences are issued in the absence of p and r, the licencees will have to be evaluated for their financial strength 9 properly this time ).



#231 The Parksider

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 02:14 PM

1. The NRL has gone from a Sydney metropolitan based league to one with teams in Penrith, Newcastle, Brisbane, the Queensland Coast, Canberra and Auckland. They, indeed, are cashed up
 
2. I would expect any new entrants to SL to be financially sound.

1. Thank you, at last you admit NRL suceeds on money.

2. Well they aren't and several SL incumbents aren't either. Hopefully you also admit we are stuck without growth in the money.

here's the growth I see....

1. Millions of ££'s of gifts from Koukash
2. Bradford rebuilding their big fan base
3. Wakefield getting 10,000 into newmarket
4. Toulouse getting millions from their local sponsors and the maire.

These four clubs must not be allowed to be relegated from Superleague in this new hairbrained plan.

#232 keighley

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 02:22 PM

1. I don't think you even know what their ambitions are? You assume they have a plan to be Superleague clubs. If so tell me how it will work financially??

2. Set out the way you see the finances working for this "expansionary model of progress" please???

Because yet again you fail to put the pounds to the plan....

 

1. I don't know what their ambitions are. maybe they only aspire to be feeder clubs like Hunslet. on the other hand......

 

2. It is up to the individual clubs to sort out their finances coupled with any initiatives coming from the RFL. Going by the majority of current SL models, the finances will be heavily dependent on investor input and now the avenue is about to be opened for progression all the way to the top, there is much more likelihood of attracting some.

 

Maybe the progression will be slowly, slowly like Sheffield eagles, from nothing to potential double winners and possible Challenge cup semi finalists by strong administrators, prudent player recruitment and slowly expanding their junior base and with the possibility of a new council built ground on the horizon. They are now on a pole position to find money men and they are in the much desired big city environment.

 

      Always you throw it to me to account for finances when it will be clearly up to the club and league officials. I throw the gauntlet back to you and pose the question that I have asked already. Do you think the RFL are putting forward these suggestions for p and r and league re organisation without considering how any such plans will be financed.?



#233 keighley

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 02:35 PM

1. Thank you, at last you admit NRL suceeds on money.

2. Well they aren't and several SL incumbents aren't either. Hopefully you also admit we are stuck without growth in the money.

here's the growth I see....

1. Millions of ££'s of gifts from Koukash
2. Bradford rebuilding their big fan base
3. Wakefield getting 10,000 into newmarket
4. Toulouse getting millions from their local sponsors and the maire.

These four clubs must not be allowed to be relegated from Superleague in this new hairbrained plan.

 

And with all those advantages at their disposal it is unlikely that they will be although Bradford weren't able to hack on big gates alone in their last incarnation.

 

However, it will not be the end if their administration and/or playing strength is so weak that they do get relegated. Like Wigan before them they will have the opportunity to be promoted asap following their relegation.

 

Only last year you were saying that Salford could go and good riddance but along comes Koukash and suddenly they are blue blooded members of the aristocracy. If they get relegated we will see where his heart is. Koukash came out of left field as they say in baseball to rescue the Reds. Good for him, good for them.

 

However, now that p and r is back on the agenda there is more likelihood of Championship teams attracting deepocketed individuals. Nobody should be above the law or exempt from failure just because they are rich and powerful.



#234 The Parksider

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 03:32 PM

Only last year you were saying that Salford could go and good riddance but along comes Koukash and suddenly they are blue blooded members of the aristocracy. If they get relegated we will see where his heart is. Koukash came out of left field as they say in baseball to rescue the Reds. Good for him, good for them.

And good for you. You are slowly getting it it's all about money.

But if Salford grow into a big club over the years what return on Koukash's investments in the club do you think he'll get??

I'll tell you. None. He's setting himself up for a mega loss.

Let's go back to how we started this - Oh yes you said that Championship clubs getting £180k a year will allow them to build and compete.

I think you now can understand your wrong it takes millions to create a Superleague club......

#235 Padge

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 06:40 PM

To refuse to consider what makes a sport successful and to consider adapting any such successful conditions to our sport is to stick your head in the sand.

 

The most successful RL competition on the planet is the NRL and they are moving towards expansion, albeit by awarding new licences, but expansion nevertheless. In the UK P and r is the way to get to the top tier, but I am open to the argument that they just award more licences and increase the size and scope of the top tier that way.

 

In any event, I think your unchanging static vision of SL is due for a rude shock in the near future and not before time.

The NRL aren't expanding by P&R though are they, they are expanding by having an exclusive top elite who bring an a large amount of money that means they can afford expansion.

 

You want the opposite, which has failed, failed, failed, time and time again.



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#236 Lobbygobbler

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 08:00 PM

The NRL aren't expanding by P&R though are they, they are expanding by having an exclusive top elite who bring an a large amount of money that means they can afford expansion.

You want the opposite, which has failed, failed, failed, time and time again.


They arent expanding though and only have 15 teams. There are many towns and cities with no NRL club.

By not having P&R they are letting other sports creep in. One example is the advantage AFL have taken in Western Sydney due to the merger of Balmain and Wests

#237 Padge

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Posted 25 May 2013 - 09:49 PM

They arent expanding though and only have 15 teams. There are many towns and cities with no NRL club.

By not having P&R they are letting other sports creep in. One example is the advantage AFL have taken in Western Sydney due to the merger of Balmain and Wests

Is that a fact?


Edited by Padge, 25 May 2013 - 09:50 PM.


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#238 JohnM

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 05:48 AM

...and where are the fans to come from in all this? Where is the demand modelling? Despite all the great work being done in places like Hemel, what information is there to indicate significant club revenues.

Sure, there are no easy answers, but I'd love to are some serious evidence-based argument as to how p and r will ensure we beat Australia, increase revenue, profit, crowds, media coverage, expansion, end war and famine and cure all known diseases.

#239 Padge

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 07:41 AM

Swinton had over 100 years, to get where, to the top and back. Workington set out almost 70 years ago and have won the challenge Cup, the Champions cup, the Lancashire Cup and have been in SL only to regress. now they are on the move again and with the opportunities made available when p and r is reinstated have the chance, however slight, of regaining past glories.

And what is the legacy of these 'great' wins.

 

Decrepit stadia or even no stadium at all.

 

Crowds that amateurs can better.

 

HIstory tells you that some of the clubs you rhyme off as potential SL clubs will never, ever attract enough people to be able to hack it at what is NOW the top level, not what the top level was 50 years ago.



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#240 keighley

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 01:31 PM

And good for you. You are slowly getting it it's all about money.

But if Salford grow into a big club over the years what return on Koukash's investments in the club do you think he'll get??

I'll tell you. None. He's setting himself up for a mega loss.

Let's go back to how we started this - Oh yes you said that Championship clubs getting £180k a year will allow them to build and compete.

I think you now can understand your wrong it takes millions to create a Superleague club......

 

 

It's all about the money but an extra 180,000 will not help. Are you talking out of both sides of your mouth at once ? I didn't say such funding would enable a team to enter SL. I said it would help to make them stronger organsations and on the back of success from that strength then gates, revenues and maybe investors will come along and, ultimately, SL  might be a possibility especially if the salary cap for SL is lowered.

 

If Salford suffers mega losses and Koukash bails out where does that leave your vaunted SL elite. Same for Toulouse. If they don't make money they might bail, .

 

You could say the same about any of the investor funded SL teams, which is a majority. All the more reason to lower the salary cap to negate excessive losses

 

i would say these recent re organisation proposals are designed to creaed a raft of solid clubs so that any investor witthdrawal at the top and subsequent failure of the particular club involved will lead the their seamless replacement with a team from the lower division which is more fit to purpose than at present.






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