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Martyn Sadler - Talking Rugby League


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#241 keighley

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 01:38 PM

...and where are the fans to come from in all this? Where is the demand modelling? Despite all the great work being done in places like Hemel, what information is there to indicate significant club revenues.

Sure, there are no easy answers, but I'd love to are some serious evidence-based argument as to how p and r will ensure we beat Australia, increase revenue, profit, crowds, media coverage, expansion, end war and famine and cure all known diseases.

 

And I'd like to see some serious evidence as to how a small parochial rump SL haemorraging money like a burst artery will do the same. revenues are down, crowds are down, expansion is verboten, Australia are still, overwhelming favourite  Fleet Street needs a GPS to navigate past Watford and delusions of grandeur about SL is a serious Phycological problem.



#242 keighley

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Posted 26 May 2013 - 02:01 PM

And what is the legacy of these 'great' wins.

 

Decrepit stadia or even no stadium at all.

 

Crowds that amateurs can better.

 

HIstory tells you that some of the clubs you rhyme off as potential SL clubs will never, ever attract enough people to be able to hack it at what is NOW the top level, not what the top level was 50 years ago.

 

And maybe no avenue to the top is partly responsible for such a state of affairs.

 

But you miss the point. The point I was making is that 50 or more years ago these clubs were the top dogs but things changed.  A cast in stone, unchanging SL will have teams in it that are on their way down to the levels of the Swinton's and Workington's but ring fencing  will keep them slowly fading in the top tier and prevent any newly vibrant clubs from replacing them. Why on earth should the Broncos be kept in  SL at the expense of Fax or Fev or Toulouse ?

 

Look at Huddersfield pre Davy, rotting stadium, crowds in the hundreds and in what is now CC1. If Davy was just taking charge of a Huddersfield in that state now, we would never see them in SL and maybe looking at a double and providing England with numerous international players,

 

Look at Hull KR, same thing. Crowds in the low 1000's, decrepit stadium. In CC1. Now they are in SL, crowds in the 7,000 range, totally revamped stadium. yes they are losing money like most of the rest of SL but look how far they have progressed. If the SL was ring fenced they would not have been there.

 

These new proposals will give lower level teams who are making serious progress a chance of making the top tier and replacing failing clubs who are already there. This, in my opinion, is a good thing.

 

The creation of a larger number of stable teams and an avenue for them to progress and replace stagnant, moribund teams from the top division is a good thing. 

 

Don't give me the "Promotion has never worked guff either ". For Huddersfield, Wakefield, Hull KR, Salford and  Castleford, it has worked just fine. Even Wigan maybe.



#243 nadera78

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 09:36 AM

Why on earth should the Broncos be kept in  SL at the expense of Fax or Fev or Toulouse ?

I'm the biggest critic of the way London have been run, the biggest critic. But even at their absolute maximum, if they fulfilled their potential in every single way, Fev and Fax would only just (and I do mean only just) offer more than the currently-shambolic London club. The potential rewards from even a moderately successful London outweigh almost every club in the game, a genuinely successful London would be the most important club in Rugby League. 


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#244 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 09:55 AM

I'm the biggest critic of the way London have been run, the biggest critic. But even at their absolute maximum, if they fulfilled their potential in every single way, Fev and Fax would only just (and I do mean only just) offer more than the currently-shambolic London club. The potential rewards from even a moderately successful London outweigh almost every club in the game, a genuinely successful London would be the most important club in Rugby League. 

agreed


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#245 Maximus Decimus

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 09:58 AM

I'm the biggest critic of the way London have been run, the biggest critic. But even at their absolute maximum, if they fulfilled their potential in every single way, Fev and Fax would only just (and I do mean only just) offer more than the currently-shambolic London club. The potential rewards from even a moderately successful London outweigh almost every club in the game, a genuinely successful London would be the most important club in Rugby League.

The doubt is of course whether a genuinely successful London club is a possibility.

#246 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 10:05 AM

The doubt is of course whether a genuinely successful London club is a possibility.

I suppose it depends what you mean by success

you could question the possibility of Fev Fax or any of the other candidates being successful-an equally if not more tenuous possibility.

 

There does need to be a close hard look at the way London operate.


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#247 petesmithfan

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 11:33 AM

I tell you what is tenuous............. Martin Saddler trying to suggest  that Steve Ganson making his balls up this weekend is a reason not to have the new option 3 structure. 


Edited by petesmithfan, 27 May 2013 - 11:37 AM.

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#248 dengol

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 12:40 PM

I believe that a method of P&R should be found probably on the basis of one up one down.

 

The RL should not take away the requirements of the franchise system including finance and ground condition and a three season protection for the promoted club.

 

.I would also like to see some help for the relegated club!

 

I certainly don't want to see an 8 team P&R battle although I do recognise that Championship clubs/fans would welcome opportunities for  promotion and indeed many would vote for the proposal.

 

I this the brainchild of Woods, Rimmer and the rest of the board or is any honest individual on the board willing to put their name and their future on the line.

 

I was never sure about Lewis but for goodness sake give the existing system a chance with a modification to include P&R! - But not the 8 team proposal and certainly not every year!!! The reasons for all the alternatives have been discussed at length on the boards and I don't want to list them again

 

People are discussing the results of polls but I feel that they do not represent the feelings of the majority of fans.

 

Come on RL, please stop making things up, keep standards rising and find a way of bringing back P&R

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



#249 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 01:25 PM

I tell you what is tenuous............. Martin Saddler trying to suggest  that Steve Ganson making his balls up this weekend is a reason not to have the new option 3 structure. 

well thanks for that. , but it isn't such a big deal considering the compelling nature of all the other reasons(qv) not to have that that structure.


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#250 Maximus Decimus

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 01:34 PM

I suppose it depends what you mean by success
you could question the possibility of Fev Fax or any of the other candidates being successful-an equally if not more tenuous possibility.
 
There does need to be a close hard look at the way London operate.

I think there is a genuine argument to be had about London. I've always been pro-London because of the reasons given but the last few years I have really started to doubt whether they ever can be even a moderate success.

It's all well and good saying that they do a similar job to Fev and Fax but London are a ticking timebomb. There simply isn't the money to sustain them in their current form and within the next few years there will be another crisis there unless things change.
My point is that if the potential for their success isn't there and I'm not sure it is, then their perpetual inclusion ahead of teams such as Fax and Fev is grossly unfair. There is only so long potential can be used as an argument. The potential of the new stadium has arguably kept Salford going for years but the move has done nothing to bring out their apparent potential. It's taken a wealthy backer to get anything going there.

#251 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 01:54 PM

I think there is a genuine argument to be had about London. I've always been pro-London because of the reasons given but the last few years I have really started to doubt whether they ever can be even a moderate success.

It's all well and good saying that they do a similar job to Fev and Fax but London are a ticking timebomb. There simply isn't the money to sustain them in their current form and within the next few years there will be another crisis there unless things change.
My point is that if the potential for their success isn't there and I'm not sure it is, then their perpetual inclusion ahead of teams such as Fax and Fev is grossly unfair. There is only so long potential can be used as an argument. The potential of the new stadium has arguably kept Salford going for years but the move has done nothing to bring out their apparent potential. It's taken a wealthy backer to get anything going there.

good points, although I don't think 'fairness' is an issue. The people charged with running the game have to take decisions and formulate policy based on their judgement on what is good for the good for the game now and in the future. There is no evidence to show that the RFL is trying to do anybody down-just the opposite in fact.

 

I think it matters a lot that rugby league isn't confined to the enclave that is optimistically called its 'heartlands', and represented by a narrow working/middle class demography.

 

London have shown they can perform on the field, they have shown they can attract a decent audience, and the rugby league constituency has developed underneath it over the years for a variety of reasons

 

I didn't say that London do a similar job to fev: what I did say that there is no evidence that fev or Halifax or whoever would perform any better in SL, or flourish and challenge the top teams either on or off the field.


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#252 Maximus Decimus

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 02:09 PM

good points, although I don't think 'fairness' is an issue. The people charged with running the game have to take decisions and formulate policy based on their judgement on what is good for the good for the game now and in the future. There is no evidence to show that the RFL is trying to do anybody down-just the opposite in fact.
 
I think it matters a lot that rugby league isn't confined to the enclave that is optimistically called its 'heartlands', and represented by a narrow working/middle class demography.
 
London have shown they can perform on the field, they have shown they can attract a decent audience, and the rugby league constituency has developed underneath it over the years for a variety of reasons
 
I didn't say that London do a similar job to fev: what I did say that there is no evidence that fev or Halifax or whoever would perform any better in SL, or flourish and challenge the top teams either on or off the field.

I'm not saying that the RFL are playing down anybody. However, London's inclusion above other clubs is largely because of their potential. The chances of their ever fulfilling this diminish all their time. Let's be honest, they haven't drawn a decent crowd for probably a decade aside from an 8,000 crowd against Saints which was their first ever game as Harlequins and clearly included many Quins RU fans giving it a go. The last time they had decent crowds was 1996/7 and their crowds are the lowest they have ever been in Super League. Things are going backwards rather than forwards. When they made the final in 99 they brought 9,000 from memory. I'd dread to think what they would bring now.

Halifax, Fev or Leigh would perform marginally better but it's hard to justify why London get a permanent place and they never get a place. For all the good they apparently do (and I think it's all debatable), they do harm to the image of the game in these communities and others who see a failing club with crowds lower than their own allowed a place at the top table.

This is justifiable as long as they are good for the game and as long as they have the potential to do something great. I'm just not sure that that they have this potential anymore.

#253 petesmithfan

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 02:10 PM

well thanks for that. , but it isn't such a big deal considering the compelling nature of all the other reasons(qv) not to have that that structure.

oh yes the very well balance letters page.......................... now remind me again who chooses who goes on the letters page.   The problem with option 3 is it requires everybody to look at the game differently.  obstacles such as season tickets, sponsors etc etc can be overcome it just requires people be open to a new way of doing things.  Season tickets for example its a matter of giving more flexible options, which is what customers want these days anyway.  All the comparisons from the past just do not stack up now, its a different world.  As you know yourself from featherstone Chris, our crowds have been increased mainly by getting new customers into the club.......bringing kids in, asking people to bring friends etc etc and these new people have no pre conceived idea of how the product should be presented, they just want entertaining and to be part of something aspirational.  The rise and fall of crowds over history has everything to do with economics and a changing society as well as increased competition and how we have competed.  It has little to do with different structures in our game.  And for these reasons I see option 3 as being able to give new customers what they want...........................sporting entertainment with an equal chance to aspire.

 

We can think things to death on here and let the past stop us living the future but personally I do not see the point.   And it looks very much to a lot of people that the people who were so pro licensing etc etc etc are against option 3 just does not fit with their past entrenched mantras.


Edited by petesmithfan, 27 May 2013 - 03:00 PM.

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#254 petesmithfan

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 02:18 PM

The biggest obstacle the game has to over come is the one of players wages.  At the minuet too much income is spent on this! Some sort of banding should be brought in and the RFL should decide on the players banding and therefore his worth, instead of agents being able to play clubs off.  Its just a suggestion Im sure their are flaws.  And as for losing talent to OZ or Union.  Let them go they can not accomodate everyone, and not everyone would be suited or have the desire to go.  Infact it would sort the Mercenaries from the devoted, And would breed a better culture and who knows restore some real pride back into our National teams.

 

More money needs to be spent on marketing the game.... it is irresponsible to just spend the lions share of income on players.  When a new film comes out I suspect just as much is spent on marketing as on the acting talent.................. As they know you can have the best product (actors) in the world, but if no one knows about the product they are worthless!


Edited by petesmithfan, 27 May 2013 - 02:22 PM.

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#255 keighley

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 02:41 PM

I'm the biggest critic of the way London have been run, the biggest critic. But even at their absolute maximum, if they fulfilled their potential in every single way, Fev and Fax would only just (and I do mean only just) offer more than the currently-shambolic London club. The potential rewards from even a moderately successful London outweigh almost every club in the game, a genuinely successful London would be the most important club in Rugby League. 

 

You are absolutely right and I was a very enthusiastic supporter of the original Fulham club when they burst on the scene and beat Wigan before 10,000 in their first 2nd division match.

 

But they have never kicked on from that and, for the last decade, have been a poor imitation of a SL club, an embarassment when on TV both from their playing standards and the masses of empty seats on view.

 

At this stage, they are not worth a SL place ahead of the other clubs mentioned.

 

They have a chance to redeem themselves in the CUp and get to the semi finals but Sheffield might just riun that dream as they are an up and coming team and the Broncos are dire.

 

What have they given up in their last couple of games, 100 ppoints or so.?



#256 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 02:54 PM

I'm not saying that the RFL are playing down anybody. However, London's inclusion above other clubs is largely because of their potential. The chances of their ever fulfilling this diminish all their time. Let's be honest, they haven't drawn a decent crowd for probably a decade aside from an 8,000 crowd against Saints which was their first ever game as Harlequins and clearly included many Quins RU fans giving it a go. The last time they had decent crowds was 1996/7 and their crowds are the lowest they have ever been in Super League. Things are going backwards rather than forwards. When they made the final in 99 they brought 9,000 from memory. I'd dread to think what they would bring now.

Halifax, Fev or Leigh would perform marginally better but it's hard to justify why London get a permanent place and they never get a place. For all the good they apparently do (and I think it's all debatable), they do harm to the image of the game in these communities and others who see a failing club with crowds lower than their own allowed a place at the top table.

This is justifiable as long as they are good for the game and as long as they have the potential to do something great. I'm just not sure that that they have this potential anymore.


I agree largely, but I don't think the clubs you mention would do better in the short, medium or long term: we've seen fax and Leigh in sl. And again there's a lot wrong with London that needs sorting out. I think London Are more important to the longer term future if the game
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#257 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 02:58 PM

oh yes the very well balance letters page.......................... now remind me again who chooses who goes on the letters page. The problem with option 3 is it requires everybody to look at the game differently. obstacles such as season tickets, sponsors etc etc can be overcome it just requires people be open to a new way of doing things. Season tickets for example its a matter of giving more flexible options, which is what customers want these days anyway. All the comparisons from the past just do not stack up now, its a different world. As you know yourself from featherstone Chris, our crowds have been increased mainly by getting new customers into the club.......bringing kids in, asking people to bring friends etc etc and these new people have no pre conceived idea of how the product should be presented, they just want entertaining and to be part of something aspirational. The rise and fall of crowds over history has everything to do with economics and a changing society as well as increased competition and how we have competed. It has little to do with different structures in our game. And for these reasons I see option 3 as being able to give new customers what they want...........................sporting entertainment with an equal ability to aspire.

We can think things to death on here and let the past stop us living the future but personally I do not see the point. And it looks very much to a lot of people that the people who were so pro licensing etc etc etc are against option 3 just does not fit with their past entrenched mantras.


Heaven forbid we have entrenched mantras on here
I have no idea who selects the letters for the letters page of league express: why would I even care? Oh I get it, they are preventing the free expression of other views: they make you sick.
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#258 Terry Mullaney

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 02:59 PM

I tell you what is tenuous............. Martin Saddler trying to suggest  that Steve Ganson making his balls up this weekend is a reason not to have the new option 3 structure. 


Scraping the barrel with that one is Mr Sadler. Doubtful the RFL will take much notice. Astonishingly biased journalism from Martyn over the past three weeks. I look forward to the day when we have games of such magnitude for Ganson or any other clown to balls up
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#259 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 03:02 PM

The biggest obstacle the game has to over come is the one of players wages. At the minuet too much income is spent on this! Some sort of banding should be brought in and the RFL should decide on the players banding and therefore his worth, instead of agents being able to play clubs off. Its just a suggestion Im sure their are flaws. And as for losing talent to OZ or Union. Let them go they can not accomodate everyone, and not everyone would be suited or have the desire to go. Infact it would sort the Mercenaries from the devoted, And would breed a better culture and who knows restore some real pride back into our National teams.

More money needs to be spent on marketing the game.... it is irresponsible to just spend the lions share of income on players. When a new film comes out I suspect just as much is spent on marketing as on the acting talent.................. As they know you can have the best product (actors) in the world, but if no one knows about the product they are worthless!

Marketing the game? People who support your club actively denigrated and refused to have anything to do with the World Cup, as I found to my cost a few months ago. I would suggest the alteration of some self serving small minded mindsets amongst the fans at some club might be an idea: and I can't see that as a possibility.
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#260 l'angelo mysterioso

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Posted 27 May 2013 - 03:06 PM

Scraping the barrel with that one is Mr Sadler. Doubtful the RFL will take much notice. Astonishingly biased journalism from Martyn over the past three weeks. I look forward to the day when we have games of such magnitude for Ganson or any other clown to balls up


It was an opinion piece: opinion pieces in the firm of leader articles and editorials are supposed to be biased... Since they put forward a point of view. If all journalism was supposed to be unbiased there would be no newspapers. You seem to have confused editorial/ leader writing with reportage
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