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Martyn Sadler - Talking Rugby League


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#41 Dave T

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 04:18 PM

Don't be silly! I'm inviting you to read the article and decide for yourself whether you agree with me.

I get that, it was the positioning of your post - saying that the benefits that other people suggest, wont happen.
You are giving your opinion, no more no less, taking a factual stance is arrogant imho.
Especially when your cup v relegation point doesnt happen in the real world of sport.

#42 Dave T

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 04:20 PM

Clubs that are relegated from the Premier League get a massive parachute payment. The future of the club isn't at risk.
And in football there is the reverse factor, because it is far more remunerative to finish in the top four and qualify for Europe.

the shift in revenues is still massive and the repercussions of relegation huge.
Im not sure of the point you are making with regards to Europe.

#43 The Parksider

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 04:22 PM

I know they have been discussing it - I just don't understand how it has got to the public before obvious questions have not been answered

The obvious question about this is why are they doing it?

The answer for me lies not because it's a revolutionary, exciting new idea from a go forward and innovative game which will see the game go foreward from success to success.

Thats the press release answer, laced with oodles of positivety and all in the garden is well.

I only have an opinion, but it seems to me they are abandoning Superleague because they don't have enough clubs who can compete at that level, sevral of whom are pulling investment out of their clubs, and clubs locked out of superleague are progressively going downhill.

Now are the RFL going to discuss the latter questions???

I suggest never in a million years.

#44 The Parksider

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 04:25 PM

Both Cas and Wakey CEO's seemed supportive on p&r and changes on BnA.

Thanks for this Dave, a middle 8 comp maybe gives cas somewhere to go whilst I guess Wakefield would not mind being a top eight club or a club at the top of the middle eight.

#45 The Parksider

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 04:28 PM

Clubs that are relegated from the Premier League get a massive parachute payment. The future of the club isn't at risk.

Indeed, I suspect a relegation of such as Cas and HKR to a championship where there was no way back would see these clubs drop like a stone crowd wise, lose all their best players and if the directors wanted their loans back then that's that, flog the grounds..

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#46 Terry Mullaney

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 04:31 PM

Only 77 votes so far, and there isn't a status quo option.
 
If the new structure delivered what it's proponents claim, then I would vote for it too.
 
The problem is that it won't, and my article explains some of the reasons why.

But you said or intimated that no one was in favour of it because your mail bag hadn't received any letters in favour. Even though there have only been 77 votes cast on here, it shows quite clearly that option three is, in fact, finding considerable favour.
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#47 Martyn Sadler

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 04:37 PM

the shift in revenues is still massive and the repercussions of relegation huge.
Im not sure of the point you are making with regards to Europe.

 

In football, the leading clubs are often prepared to play weakened teams in the FA Cup in order not to prejudice their chances of earning a place in Europe by finishing in the top four in the league table.



#48 amh

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 04:37 PM

The obvious question about this is why are they doing it?

The answer for me lies not because it's a revolutionary, exciting new idea from a go forward and innovative game which will see the game go foreward from success to success.

Thats the press release answer, laced with oodles of positivety and all in the garden is well.

I only have an opinion, but it seems to me they are abandoning Superleague because they don't have enough clubs who can compete at that level, sevral of whom are pulling investment out of their clubs, and clubs locked out of superleague are progressively going downhill.

Now are the RFL going to discuss the latter questions???

I suggest never in a million years.

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#49 Martyn Sadler

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 04:40 PM

But you said or intimated that no one was in favour of it because your mail bag hadn't received any letters in favour. Even though there have only been 77 votes cast on here, it shows quite clearly that option three is, in fact, finding considerable favour.

 

That's right. And I'm not too surprised. I can see why some people might like it. But when you think about its long term effects you begin to get worried.

 

I think Featherstone are particularly vulnerable in this structure. I'll say why in League Express on Monday.



#50 Gav Wilson

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 04:41 PM

In football, the leading clubs are often prepared to play weakened teams in the FA Cup in order not to prejudice their chances of earning a place in Europe by finishing in the top four in the league table.

 

 

In the Capital One Cup maybe, they certainly don't in the FA Cup.


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#51 Gav Wilson

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 04:43 PM

I think Featherstone are particularly vulnerable in this structure. I'll say why in League Express on Monday.

 

Featherstone themselves seem to think otherwise.

 

(Thats not to say I agree with it though.)


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#52 Dave T

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 04:46 PM

In football, the leading clubs are often prepared to play weakened teams in the FA Cup in order not to prejudice their chances of earning a place in Europe by finishing in the top four in the league table.

thanks for clarifying -makes sense.
There is no getting away from the fact though that Wigan winning the cup this year has probably cost them their spot in the PL but im sure they wouldnt change a thing.
As a City fan who was at Wembley, I can tell you that losing wasnt made any easier by the fact we are in Europe next year.

#53 Just to be clear

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 04:52 PM

After the match, and the media conference, I went upstairs into the lounge in which Giants supporters and players congregate, and I was assailed with people asking me about the RFL's proposals for changing the structure of the league competitions. It's fair to say that I didn't find anyone who was in favour of the proposed changes…

Just to be clear, I am surprised Dave Woods did not turn up after commentating on the game, as he was very enthusiastic about the proposal on the recent Forty-20 podcast.

To start with, we would see clubs reverting to playing some other clubs three times during the regular season.
I don't think the RFL and the clubs realise just how resistant the fans will be to seeing too many matches between the same clubs.

And yet many want to see Super League contracted, while your fellow journalists have been droning on endlessly about two leagues of ten for the past few years, which would also necessitate repeat extra fixtures.

The other 'Grand Finals' will be a tremendous anti-climax and it would be better not to have them.
The second group of eight will see the clubs finishing in the four leading positions reverting to the 'top 12' at the start of the following season. The play-offs will have no bearing on that outcome. So the only interest in that division will be the splitting point between fourth and fifth.
And if your club is in the third group of eight, you won't be able to be promoted out of it. The only interesting thing about that group will be the relegation battle, as the clubs try to avoid dropping into the group with the clubs that are presently in Championship One.

Which sounds like exactly what Championship clubs fans have been saying about their competition for the past 5 years of licensing. Apparently a winning a competition is valuable in its own right, without the need for promotion, when it serves a self-interest, but is a tremendous anti-climax when it contradicts that self-interest.

The other thing to bear in mind is that the proposals could do untold damage to the Challenge Cup in 2014…

Also worth bearing in mind it could be a huge success that propels the game into a strong future on an equally very tenuous basis. Claiming we can never have relegation because if we do it will damage the cup is at least the most creative argument I have heard on the any of the proposals.

#54 THE RED ROOSTER

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 06:47 PM

The obvious question about this is why are they doing it?

The answer for me lies not because it's a revolutionary, exciting new idea from a go forward and innovative game which will see the game go foreward from success to success.

Thats the press release answer, laced with oodles of positivety and all in the garden is well.

I only have an opinion, but it seems to me they are abandoning Superleague because they don't have enough clubs who can compete at that level, sevral of whom are pulling investment out of their clubs, and clubs locked out of superleague are progressively going downhill.

Now are the RFL going to discuss the latter questions???

I suggest never in a million years.

 

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#55 Larry the Leit

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 06:54 PM

Just to be sycophantic, Martyn's article actually sets out a critique of the scenarios rather than just saying they're pap like most of us on here.  The conclusion seems to be that they're pap though.


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#56 redjonn

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 07:41 PM

I tend to agree with most of Martyn comments, although I see why it dramatically impacts Challenge Cup.  From my own perspective I very strongly disagree with the suggested league structure option 3, that is ending in 3x8 leagues.

 

Strong issue for me is the first 11 games "superleague" games that determine the primary pool and the x4 of the lower.   It would seem to me that for current top clubs to make top 8 would be straight forward and towards the later part some games would surely be meaningless as they would not affect the outcome of being in the top 8. Doesn't matter in which position the club ends providing its top 8 because competition starts again in the final group of 8 (nothing seems to get carried over).

 

So why should I bother with the first set of games when it is clearly being recognised that a number of those teams are not of sufficient quality plus some games meaningless as I say above.  Thus I would just await for the real games for when they split into 8 being a current superleague club fan.  Why should I waste my money when the game is clearly telling me that the first 11 is just to sort out the "quality" 8 teams and hence games.  At least today I can pretend that all games are worthwhile and hope that all teams will eventually strengthen.

 

Once I start going to less games then the habit is less forming and danger is I'll find other things that further impact. 



#57 bobbruce

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 07:54 PM

I tend to agree with most of Martyn comments, although I see why it dramatically impacts Challenge Cup. From my own perspective I very strongly disagree with the suggested league structure option 3, that is ending in 3x8 leagues.

Strong issue for me is the first 11 games "superleague" games that determine the primary pool and the x4 of the lower. It would seem to me that for current top clubs to make top 8 would be straight forward and towards the later part some games would surely be meaningless as they would not affect the outcome of being in the top 8. Doesn't matter in which position the club ends providing its top 8 because competition starts again in the final group of 8 (nothing seems to get carried over).

So why should I bother with the first set of games when it is clearly being recognised that a number of those teams are not of sufficient quality plus some games meaningless as I say above. Thus I would just await for the real games for when they split into 8 being a current superleague club fan. Why should I waste my money when the game is clearly telling me that the first 11 is just to sort out the "quality" 8 teams and hence games. At least today I can pretend that all games are worthwhile and hope that all teams will eventually strengthen.

Once I start going to less games then the habit is less forming and danger is I'll find other things that further impact.


I think the points do carry over for the top and bottom 8.

#58 Just Browny

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 07:59 PM

I agree with Martyn entirely on this one. But I do wish he'd stop saying that no-one is in favour of the proposals, because clearly there are some.


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#59 bewareshadows

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 08:13 PM

The points do get carried forward to the new competition.  Also saying that the top 8 would sort itself out is not true.  Yes there are always the usual suspects, but last year Bradford (the mutli superleague champions) would have not made the cut, this year Saints would not have made the cut, only 5 or so years ago, Wigan  would not have made the cut.  Warrington would not have made the cut.  Whilst some teams are %wise in the top 8 a lot, no one is a dead cert to be at the top of the league.


Edited by bewareshadows, 17 May 2013 - 08:15 PM.

Super League the only place in the world where people still believe that less competitors and a closed market to new competition will improve the quality of the product.

Even the Chinese and the Cubans gave up on these marxist principles years ago.


SL with a reduced number of competitors and a closed market = North Korea.

#60 redjonn

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Posted 17 May 2013 - 08:19 PM

Do the points carry over for all eleven games or only for those games involving the final 8.  






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